Epsilon lyrae

[Adidaz 29]

Having had my 10 inch xti push go Orion telescope  about a 10 days now I tried to split the double  double  near vega epsilon lyrae  I tried all my eye peices and Barlow but could not split the many sugestions please as Iam very new to this new world in the sky  plus I've tried using the computar to allign stars Vega and Altair  but when I try to find other object  I find nothing pleases. The computer tell me were to go but I find nothing thanks adidaz29. Clear skies  

[barkis]

I believe the resolving power of your telescope is around .5 Arc Seconds, so well capable of separating the Epsilon LY.   DD.
Yours is a fast telescope, f4.7?  
Whilst the theoretical resolution is one thing, sky and it's seeing conditions are another. 
Don't give up trying, give your rig plenty of time to cool down, the weather lately has been quite warm, and your mirror's surface figure will
change as the heat leaves it, don't be in a hurry. Given the right conditions, and  very good  collimation,  you are well able to see the split.
Ramp the magnification up gradually, don't go past the sharpest image you see, if you do, go back  a little.
100 x mag. should be OK  10mm or 12mm Eyepiece. You may need to nudge your scope around gently to keep the target in the eyepiece if 
you don't have a driven mount.
Keep trying, you'll get there.

[billyharris72]

34 minutes ago, barkis said:

Keep trying, you'll get there.

Best advice ever in this hobby.

Likely seeing conditions (and possbly tube currents) have not been kind to you. Also, in my experience at least, you sometimes need to learn to see things. I don't know why, but with repeated viewing you start to see more and more.

I've always struggled with Epsilon Lyrae, but find each time I try that I can see the split a little better (while for experienced double star onbservers it's an easy one). Same with DSOs (with M57 I went from not being able to discern it at all to a faint smudge with no detail, to blindingly obvious with clear structure, with no change in anything except me). Even stars (took me over a year before I first saw Alcor, on a night of comparatively low LP, now I can hardly miss it in deep twighlight). Keep plugging away and you'll just keep seeing more and more.

Try again. Fail more. Fail better.

And enjoy.

Billy.

Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samuelbeck121335.html

Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samuelbeck121335.html

 

[Commanderfish]

I was struggling to split the double double last night in my 16 inch Dob.  There were poor seeing conidtions last night, high thin cloud, lots of ight pollution from the moon, early dew formation on the eyepieces, and big scopes need long cool down times.

Don't give up. However we are about to have the full moon, which means a lot of light pollution, and the very high temperatures we are having at the moment (UK) tend to cause turbulence and therefore unsteady seeing in the atmosphere.  The rapid temperature drops in the evening at this time of year can also mean that the scope needs more time to cool, even if it has already been outside for a while.  The air inside the tube can't cool as quickly as the air outside does.  The air currents this generates in the tube mess up your views.  

These conditions won't last long though.  Personally I'm going to wait for 4 days after the full moon, when the light pollution is less and we have cooler day time temperatures.  The 2 weeks when the moon is smallest are best for light pollution.  That said, there are some months when the moon does not actually rise above the horizon, or it is out in the day but not at night.

[Adidaz 29]

1 hour ago, barkis said:

I believe the resolving power of your telescope is around .5 Arc Seconds, so well capable of separating the Epsilon LY.   DD.
Yours is a fast telescope, f4.7?  
Whilst the theoretical resolution is one thing, sky and it's seeing conditions are another. 
Don't give up trying, give your rig plenty of time to cool down, the weather lately has been quite warm, and your mirror's surface figure will
change as the heat leaves it, don't be in a hurry. Given the right conditions, and  very good  collimation,  you are well able to see the split.
Ramp the magnification up gradually, don't go past the sharpest image you see, if you do, go back  a little.
100 x mag. should be OK  10mm or 12mm Eyepiece. You may need to nudge your scope around gently to keep the target in the eyepiece if 
you don't have a driven mount.
Keep trying, you'll get there.

Thanks Doug

[Adidaz 29]

1 hour ago, billyharris72 said:

Best advice ever in this hobby.

Likely seeing conditions (and possbly tube currents) have not been kind to you. Also, in my experience at least, you sometimes need to learn to see things. I don't know why, but with repeated viewing you start to see more and more.

I've always struggled with Epsilon Lyrae, but find each time I try that I can see the split a little better (while for experienced double star onbservers it's an easy one). Same with DSOs (with M57 I went from not being able to discern it at all to a faint smudge with no detail, to blindingly obvious with clear structure, with no change in anything except me). Even stars (took me over a year before I first saw Alcor, on a night of comparatively low LP, now I can hardly miss it in deep twighlight). Keep plugging away and you'll just keep seeing more and more.

Try again. Fail more. Fail better.

And enjoy.

Billy.

Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samuelbeck121335.html

Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samuelbeck121335.html

 

Thanks for that Billy's

[Adidaz 29]

53 minutes ago, Commanderfish said:

I was struggling to split the double double last night in my 16 inch Dob.  There were poor seeing conidtions last night, high thin cloud, lots of ight pollution from the moon, early dew formation on the eyepieces, and big scopes need long cool down times.

Don't give up. However we are about to have the full moon, which means a lot of light pollution, and the very high temperatures we are having at the moment (UK) tend to cause turbulence and therefore unsteady seeing in the atmosphere.  The rapid temperature drops in the evening at this time of year can also mean that the scope needs more time to cool, even if it has already been outside for a while.  The air inside the tube can't cool as quickly as the air outside does.  The air currents this generates in the tube mess up your views.  

These conditions won't last long though.  Personally I'm going to wait for 4 days after the full moon, when the light pollution is less and we have cooler day time temperatures.  The 2 weeks when the moon is smallInsert other media est are best for light pollution.  That said, there are some months when the moon does not actually rise above the horizon, or it is out in the day but not at night.

That explains last night the moon made my garden very bright I struggled to see the stars with a naked eye thanks commander fish

[billyharris72]

I've just noticed that the forum seems to have recignised what I said and interted a quotation link ... Bizarre.

[wookie1965]

I have split the double double with my old 150p I've not tried with my 200p yet and will definitely try with the Frac I'm getting. 

[Moonshane]

As it sounds, you might initially be better taking off the little cap on the main scope cap and using this; effectively a 50-60mm scope. Using this will reduce resolution but will tighten up star shapes no end. You could consider making an aperture mask 

That said, on a night of better seeing you'll easily split it with full aperture so do keep trying 

 

[cotterless45]

For those star hopping or searching, find Vega to the left two other bright stars form a triangle . The top star resolves as epsilon Lyrae1 and 2, the "double double". It's a neat thing to let a newbie find this and then push up the magnification until they pop open. We get these about x48 under good seeing with a frac ( proper scope ),

Nick.

[Stu]

I assume you actually found the Double Double but couldn't actually split it?

I've always thought it looks better in a smaller frac than a larger newt to be honest. You will need to make sure your collimation is good and the scope is cooled correctly. Probably anything above x100 should do it, provided the atmosphere is stable. The moon and/or high haze don't make too much difference, it is the seeing conditions which matter i.e. Whether the Jetstream is overhead or not, and whether it has been a very hot day with plenty of lower level convection currents.

I have split it in a 60mm refractor and just recently a 65mm Newtonian, but as I say, these scopes often have an easier time of it due to fewer or no tube currents and an ability to cut through poorer seeing.

Keep trying, and sooner or later everything will come together. Get the focus as sharp as you can, then just watch and wait for some steady seeing to come through.

[Ben the Ignorant]

5 hours ago, Adidaz 29 said:

Having had my 10 inch xti push go Orion telescope  about a 10 days now I tried to split the double  double  near vega epsilon lyrae

Have you tried the countless easier doubles before? Three of the four stars in Lyra's diamond are super easy to split, just to stay in the same region.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

Have you tried the countless easier doubles before? Three of the four stars in Lyra's diamond are super easy to split, just to stay in the same region.

Or even the Double Double's Double? A little harder to find, but still in Lyra and easier to split

 

[Moonshane]

As a test, I took off the small cap from my 120ED meaning a 50 ish mm f18 scope and just about managed a split at around 125x. Doing this will give you a good idea of what to look for at least and I suspect you'd then see it better with full aperture. Sometimes, observing things is about learning how to observe things. Averted vision is another example.

[Ben the Ignorant]

Two days ago I did a brief sidewalk stargazing with a neighbor, using only an 80mm achromat, the least expensive scope in my set. He couldn't see it because he had never done that kind of observation before, but Epsilon was split, clean and firm at 85x. With your 250mm, Adidaz, you can make a 95 mm or 100mm off-axis mask; turbulence will be much reduced.  Try an even smaller mask if the air is still too wavy.

[Ouroboros]

I couldn't split the double doubles last night with my 80mm frac at 50x mag.  I wasn't sure whether this was a resolution issue or light pollution from the moon. Interesting that others report splitting the double doubles with 60mm. I have certainly split them with my 200mm. 

[Ben the Ignorant]

2 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I couldn't split the double doubles last night with my 80mm frac at 50x mag.  I wasn't sure whether this was a resolution issue or light pollution from the moon.

The Moon does not matter for such a bright group of stars; your magnification was low.

[Saganite]

Last night the " seeing " here was really good. With the TAL 100RS  and an Antares 7mm Ortho (142x) 2 pairs of sharp " bulls eyes". The split was absolutely clean.

 

[joncrawf]

23 hours ago, billyharris72 said:

I've just noticed that the forum seems to have recignised what I said and interted a quotation link ... Bizarre.

It's a great quote. I clipped into Evernote for future reference. Thanks for sharing

[Moonshane]

I agree. About 100x usually makes it a clear split.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Saganite said:

Last night the " seeing " here was really good. With the TAL 100RS  and an Antares 7mm Ortho (142x) 2 pairs of sharp " bulls eyes". The split was absolutely clean.

 

It's great when that happens, lovely seeing, and as you say two pairs of bullseye targets. Cracking stuff.

[Roy Challen]

2 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I couldn't split the double doubles last night with my 80mm frac at 50x mag.  I wasn't sure whether this was a resolution issue or light pollution from the moon. Interesting that others report splitting the double doubles with 60mm. I have certainly split them with my 200mm. 

The Double Double is very much a seeing-dependant target, rather than light pollution having much of an effect. I have split them with my Skylight and 25mm Zeiss Huygens (x50 mag), when this happens (not often enough) I know that the seeing is good and high magnifications on other targets can be supported. If I need to use a shorter focal length ep to make the split, then the seeing isn't as good and I'll have to restrict magnification. It's a good test is Epsilon Lyrae.

[YKSE]

4 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I couldn't split the double doubles last night with my 80mm frac at 50x mag.  I wasn't sure whether this was a resolution issue or light pollution from the moon. Interesting that others report splitting the double doubles with 60mm. I have certainly split them with my 200mm. 

There're split done in lower than 40x by what I've read that , I'd assume it was under great steady seeing and with very good eyes.

I've only managed the split a few times in sub 60x with 80ED under good seeings here, and there were a couple of times I couldn't split with any magnificaiton in any of my scopes, when the seeing were really bad.