new CCD

[brrttpaul]

I have the starlight xpress HSV-9 OSC, have to be honest I dont get on with it as I didnt realise there was so much to it ( only recently found out you have to tick boxcar filter for OS cameras) , my images just dont come out as well as they should, I am nort blaming the camera in any way my incompetence. So I was thinking of a newer camera and if im honest mono  as im told narrowband is the best for light pollution etc. So with that in mind im down to two , the Atik 314L or the starlight trius, my biggest concearn is the filterwheel and filters. they not cheap. any thoughts on cameras, software that goes with it etc? I think i read that atik uses artemis and is very easy to use

[riklaunim]

Full set isn't cheap and you don't have to buy everything at once. I did many shots with Atik 314L+ and CLS-CCD filter (that limits light pollution). There are also new CMOS based cameras (like cooled ZWO and QHY cameras) that also can be used for DS imaging and can be easier to use as they perform better when taking shorter exposures (and more frames).

As for software - for DS imaging I use Nebulosity. Artemis app should work too For guiding PHD.

[D4N]

Indeed narrowband cuts through light pollution very effectively.

You could start out with a Ha filter as that tends to give the most striking mono images then the next on the list would be OIII as you can make some great bicolour images with those two.

You could start out by either placing the filter on the nose cone or using a filter drawer as this would be much cheaper than a wheel.

I started out with a filter drawer and found it worked fine so long as I could go to the scope to change filters.

 

You may also want to consider the 414EX over the 314L as it has much higher QE and isn't that much more expensive.  It should register about 60% more light in the Ha wavelength.

[Marky1973]

I have the 414ex and, although my efforts so far have largely failed (mostly due to cloud, and my own learning curve) it does seem to be a very nice camera.

I went manual first off with the filter wheel, but then I quite like being "there" to caress the equipment from time to time. Only 5 slots though, so I suspect I will need to upgrade next year if I go full narrowband - just Ha at the moment (coming today hopefully) to try some mono nebula imaging. And, from what I read, you can combine Ha with LRGB, so there are plenty of option so to play around with.

Keep an eye on Astro Buy and Sell as filters come up from time to time - got my Baader LRGB set for £125 and they are perfect. think there are a set of Astronomik filters on there today for £140.

Artemis is great. Not quite as "bells and whistles" as APT which I also have, but it is more than adequate to get good images with - I may well move away from it to APT when I am more comfortable with the camera but, for now, Artemis just works and I can be up and running very quickly.

I think (certainly for me) that patience is the key with these cameras. There is a lot to learn and figure out. I got the ATIK in March (iirc) and have so far only managed 1 LRGB image (which wasn't that great) largely due to the time of year, but also false-starts, mistakes, problems to overcome etc etc - it all just takes time.

 

Good luck!

 

[carastro]

I have an Atik314L (I believe this is the forerunner of the Atik414).  To be honest when I first got it, I was a bit shocked with the FOV after using a DSLR and re-sold it and bought an Atik383L.  However about 18 months later I re-bought an Atik314L as I wanted something smaller for smaller targets.  Had I known what I know now I should have stuck with the original Atik314 and just bought a smaller telescope for the larger targets as it's been the best camera I have owned and I now absolutely love it.

Now back to your dilemma of the filters.  Mono is definitely the way to go.  I also owned a OSC at one time and found it quite difficult to use and process, and in the end re-sold it as I found Mono imaging so much easier.  OK, you have to do different filters, but with time and patience you will find it produces much better images than a OSC.  

As you suggest you can indeed use Ha filters to enhance a coloured image.  

When I first started I used a manual filter wheel to keep the cost down, and whilst it worked fine, I did find it rather tedious to keep changing the filters manually all the time, especially as the position of the filterwheel meant I often had to crouch in awkward positions to see what i was doing, but it will certainly get you started.   Manual filter wheels are around £100.

I have no experience with the Starlight cameras, so can't advise you there.

Narrowband opens up a whole new area of imaging which is another advantage of a Mono camera.  Note the smaller the nm of the narrowband filters the better the data you will collect, all mine are around the 7 - 8nm range.  Astrodon at around 3 -4 nm you need a mortgage, and the larger number nm don't eliminate so much LP.  

Good luck with this change over, I know you won't regret changing from OSC to mono.

Carole 

  

[brrttpaul]

First of all, thanks very much for the replies it is appreciated. I think where I went wrong was buying a OSC thinking it would be easier ( one shot and away to go). I have persevered with it for a year now and still i am not happy with the results. As I said its probably a good camera and user error is to blame, my latest failure is the darn flats now ( I mean no one tells you you have to use a boxcar filter so how would you know any diferent lol).  It wont be untill xmas so I will still tinker about trying in vain to get one decent shot. It came to me today to take my images in maxim as normal but stack them in DSS to see if theres any improvement, but would i need to do anything to them first before stacking them ? (convert to colour, the boxcar filter with my flats? do i convert my darks/bias to colour?. I have no idea. thanks once again for the replies

Paul

[Gina]

Um... What's a "boxcar filter"?

[SilverAstro]

12 minutes ago, Gina said:

Um... What's a "boxcar filter"?

Normally the shape of a filter in Digital Signal Processing (DSP), vertical sides and flat top  From the shape of an american railroad wagon Not sure about this context though

[D4N]

15 minutes ago, Gina said:

Um... What's a "boxcar filter"?

It's a type of averaging, I assume the software Paul's using uses it.

 

You don't normally do anything other than stack calibration files, the software should deal with the rest.  Occasionally you might debayer and stretch them to inspect but otherwise they are left alone.

I doubt DSS will provide an improvement, you could try the free trial of PI though, that is very good at stacking.

[Gina]

Cheers

[SilverAstro]

I put   boxcar filter astro flats  into DuckDuckGo and top of the list, summary said

Using a flat field with a color sensor - AstroSurf

Using a flat field with a color sensor When a Bayer matrix is used on the digital sensor ... Be careful to select "Apply Boxcar Filter (one shot color flats) ...

http://www.astrosurf.com/comolli/flatfieldcolor2.htm

 

This forum can keep one out of mischief for ages  all sorts to learn

 

[brrttpaul]

Just reading that link you put up there, looks like I wernt doing  my flats correctly, I was just taking them then going to set calibration> clear old>load new (boxcar filter is ticked) and then clicked ok. It never occured to me that I should stack the flats and colour convert them first then convert back to mono, I just pressumed when I was stacking I was stacking images only (the colour convert box ticked and auto calibrate ticked. Arrrgh . so lets say i take images darks/bias and flats tonight would I be right stacking the flats (colour converted)  then revert to mono saving it as a master , images  colour convert first then apply the kernal filter (boxcar ticked) then my darksand bias , do i colour convert them alos then save as master?. As I said all i have been doing is taking the files and adding them in set calibration then click on calibrate and thinking that was it

[SilverAstro]

2 hours ago, brrttpaul said:

Just reading that link you put up there, looks like I wernt doing  my flats correctly, /, do i colour convert them alos then save as master?.

I regret to say that I have no idea ! Sorry, I dont even know which program you are in   The only reason I put that link there is because Gina and I were intrigued by your ref. to boxcars.

I think probably best if you asked in one of the imaging sections of the forum ?

Good luck.

 

[brrttpaul]

Thats ok Im practising with it ATM and think I got it somehow

[brrttpaul]

Ok so heres what I done, took 30 flats and 50 bias then took a single image 30 secs long, Calibrate then colour convert then kernal filter (boxcar), there was a big improvement so I knew I had 300 secs of darks and tried again only this time used the darks also on a 300sec single image. I virtually had a black screen so I,m guessing too many darks for a single image? also any stars that were there just looked like hot pixels. its hard work isnt it

[D4N]

If the dark frame exposure and gain settings were the same as the light frames it should not be removing any data, only noise.  

Am I right in thinking you had a bunch of 300" dark frames that you stacked into a master dark and applied to the single 300" light frame?

 

[swag72]

I have used an SX one shot colour camera and I have to say I found it terrible. The flakiest drivers that I ever had the misfortune to use........ I personally wouldn't touch a SX camera because of that experience. The Atik is a decent camera..... Artemis is easy to use and should get you up and running very quickly. I never once had an issue with Atik drivers and so that gets a thumbs up from me.

Mono and narrowband is an excellent way to go in my experience. 

[ollypenrice]

I agree with Sara. I have had a lot more trouble with SX than Atik I'm afraid and Artemis Capture is great software.

Isn't the Boxcar filter a debayering filter which removes the visible Bayer grid pattern? I don't use Maxim.

I always argue against the view that OSC is easier than mono. I have quite a lot of experience with OSC, though far more with mono, and OSC has issues. It collects the wrong amount of green data, collects colour all the time whereas shooting L is 3 to 4x faster and is handicapped for narrowband by the obligatory RGB filters. You cannot tailor your filter choice to the elevation of the target. (Blue is best shot high.) Your optics have to be parfocal and may not be. It takes longer for an equvalent image quality. Quite a long list!

If you are interested in NB then a cheap manual filter wheel will be absolutely fine. You will, in reality, spend long times on one filter. You might do a night in Ha, a night in OIII and a night in SII.

Carole, regarding small targets, it is not the size of the chip which matters but the size of the pixels. You can easily crop and discard unwanted empty sky on a big chip. If you frame a smallish target, say M27, the 8300 puts 1.2 times as many pixels under the target so it gives you a significantly bigger and better resolved image of M27 than the 314.

I used to think that a dual rig with mono in one side and OSC in the other was a good idea. But then I had a better idea. Two monos!

Olly

 

[Robp]

I owned both the Atik 314L+ and the 414ex in mono. Atik's own software has just worked for me, never had a problem. I purchased both cameras second hand and when I managed to damage the power cable for my Atik 314L+ I asked Atik where I could purchase a replacement. Atik sent me a new one for free, even though I had told them it was my fault. 

I image with a streetlight directly to my West and the light pollution of Stoke-On-Trent to the east. Mono cuts through light pollution really well. I managed 3-4 minute subs on an RGB camera before they were unusable. Using Narrowband I can expose for as long as my guiding can handle. I now expose at 20 minutes each sub which is as long as I am comfortable with on my setup. HA I use when the moon is around, OIII when the moon isn't.

You don't have to get the full filter set and filter wheel at the start. The camera come with a nosepiece that has a 1.25 inch filter thread. You can make do with the HA and start gathering data and add a filterwheel, OIII and other filters later. the filterwheel can also be a manual version (I prefer these) and are relatively cheap, think I purchased mine for £60 new.

It has low noise and is very sensitive, you can get some nice 314L+ bargains now as well as they have been replaced with the 414ex.

Some examples of images from this camera on my HEQ5

M81 Bode's Galaxy Luminance with the 130-PDS

http://astrob.in/241231/0/

M42 Orion Nebula in HA and OIII with the WOStar71

http://astrob.in/237275/0/

The only downside is the small chip size so as long as you are happy with that...

[Jokehoba]

51 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I used to think that a dual rig with mono in one side and OSC in the other was a good idea. But then I had a better idea. Two monos!

I'd often thought the mono/OSC set up would optimise imaging time, and perhaps would go down that route in the future. But two monos... What a fantastic idea!   Far more useful and ultimately far more productive. Thanks Olly.

[ollypenrice]

28 minutes ago, Jokehoba said:

I'd often thought the mono/OSC set up would optimise imaging time, and perhaps would go down that route in the future. But two monos... What a fantastic idea!   Far more useful and ultimately far more productive. Thanks Olly.

In reality is indeed far, far more productive.

Olly

[johnrt]

If you are prepared for the reasonably small chip and restricted field of view that the Atik 314l+ (or the newer 414ex) gives, it is a great mono CCD to start out with, I can't recommend it enough, and as for 2 of them in a dual rig - of course, twice the fun!

[Gina]

Three mono cameras is even better   Ha - OIII - SII or for galaxies you might like R-G-B.

[brrttpaul]

thx guys for all the replies, I bought the camera 2nd hand and being new didnt have a clue, I was out last night left the rig set up and took roughly 10 30 minute exposures plus 4 darks bias and flats, ran it through maxim and the result was terrible. I dont know what more i could do,  it is so frustrating when you think you getting somewhere

[brrttpaul]

23 hours ago, D4N said:

If the dark frame exposure and gain settings were the same as the light frames it should not be removing any data, only noise.  

Am I right in thinking you had a bunch of 300" dark frames that you stacked into a master dark and applied to the single 300" light frame?

 

yes thats right, I have just been catching up with the posts and like the 414ex, I tried it in FOv calc and happy with it so i can see me going for that