Orion optics and re-sale depreciation

[spaceboy]

I am currently in the market for an OO dobsonian and in doing so I have searched the web for reviews, pro's and con's etc, etc to see which scope would best suit my needs. What has become very apparent and what seems to be largely accepted amongst the astronomy community is that Orion Optics scopes suffer huge depreciation over new prices. I know even if there is a similar spec on the mirrors anything built in the UK is going to have a higher than usual price tag associated to it that those coming out of China so I dare say OO scopes could be considered slightly over priced amongst the scope offerings out there but even so they do seem to have a reputation of offering high quality scopes even if their customer service is sometimes criticised.

I guess what I am asking is there something else I have missed for why the deprecation is so huge on these scopes? I did wonder if it might be because of the ally tubes and them not being as forgiving of knocks and scrapes ? I'm aware that Hilux coatings are highly recommended but I have also seen a few OO for sale that owners have quoted recently re-silvered on a scope that is only 2-4 years old ?? I know on some of the older OO scopes the focusers were less than ideal having a design flaw but this I believe has been addressed.

I'd have thought a big scope that is light with top grade mirrors and a well constructed base that is compact would be desirable and hold it's value yet last year I turned down a OO16" with 1/6 mirrors for £940 and have recently been offered a 4 year old VX14 with 1/10 optics for only £1k which is near enough 1 1/2 less than they are new. For most I guess the practicality of man handling or transporting such large scopes along with storing it obviously doesn't help re-sale value as the market is more reserved but even so given the cost of these things new you would have thought the prices would be more than they are. I know a couple members on SGL have OO that they purchased at a snap so it does seem to be the trend and not some one off bargains.

Am I missing something then? and if so what should I look out for when buying one ?

[Timebandit]

Hello. I think it's like anything in life it's all about supply and demand when it comes to something holding its value. These scopes are not cheap new and it's like a new car when you drive it out of the showroom it's lost you thousands already. Skywatcher also loose lots of money when they come on the second hand market also, so I don't think it's just OOuk.  And the bigger the scope the more limited the market due to handling and storage therefore a much smaller market when you do come to sell. 

I think the OOuk scope I purchased was a great buy used as such I don't think there is any overall fault on the scope that drive down the price. The scopes are well made and produce great views especially 1/10 version. So I think they can be a bit of a bargain in used condition 

If you were in the market for a OOuk then a 1/10 mirror 14" OOuk  at 4years old for 1k , you should of bit the chaps hand off, and you would have a big smile on your face now?

[estwing]

Unless you're keeping an OO scope for I very long time I would seek cheaper alternatives

[John]

I've owned two OO newtonian tube assemblies, a 10" F/4.8 and my current 12" F/5.3. The 10" was the "standard" OO optics (1/6th wave PV plus Hilux) and the stock focuser. It was just a couple of years old when I bought it and in mint condition. I paid £325 delivered to me for that one I think which was less than 50% of the new price at that time. My 12" F/5.3 is an older OTA - around a decade old. The tube has a few marks on it but the optics were in great nick and were 1/8th wave PV and Hiluxed. I paid £250 for that one but had to drive around 150 miles round trip to collect it. I reckon a new one to that spec at that time would have cost 3-4x as much.

Typically chinese dobs seem to depreciate around 30% initially and then more or less stick at that unless there is some damage to them.

Why things are this way I'm not entirely sure but I'd not be keen to buy a new OO scope and see that sort of depreciation kick in although we don't buy these things as investments, do we ?.

 

 

[spaceboy]

29 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

If you were in the market for a OOuk then a 1/10 mirror 14" OOuk  at 4years old for 1k , you should of bit the chaps hand off, and you would have a big smile on your face now?

Believe me I was very close to buying it but after a reality check.......

......... I decided others might get more use out of it than I would so it was left to someone else to quickly snap it up http://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview_archive.php?view=116003

[Mark at Beaufort]

I visited Astrofest 2 years ago because I fancied an Orion VX8 and wanted to inspect it and feel the weight. I came very close to placing an order but decided to delay my decision. A few months later an Orion VX8 appeared on eBay and I was successful in winning the bid. I paid £133 with free delivery. When it arrived collimation was far out and the focuser would not work - within an hour everything was perfect.

This scope is really good and in fact I did the owner review at the end of last year for the Sky at Night Magazine.

So I bought a £633 OTA for £133 - now that is a drop!!!

 

[spaceboy]

Yet a SW 200P new is £279 and I regularly see them sell used on ebay for £150-£200. I know which I'd prefer yet the mass produced Chinese scope holds it's value

[scarp15]

1 hour ago, estwing said:

Unless you're keeping an OO scope for I very long time I would seek cheaper alternatives

Exactly, my VX14 with 1/10pv wave mirrors is S/H at the £1K mark, I purchased the VX8L from new though did receive a 5% discount. Both scopes are for the long haul, mechanically and optically, they are both impressive.

[Scooot]

1 hour ago, spaceboy said:

Yet a SW 200P new is £279 and I regularly see them sell used on ebay for £150-£200. I know which I'd prefer yet the mass produced Chinese scope holds it's value

I think people compare the second hand price with the new price of other makes and think to themselves they'd rather have a new scope, so aren't prepared to pay more or nearly the same even for a second hand scope, albeit maybe a better one.

[Dave Lloyd]

I think some of the savage depreciation may be down to the fact that if you buy used Orion won't sell you any spares!

[scarp15]

19 minutes ago, Dave Lloyd said:

I think some of the savage depreciation may be down to the fact that if you buy used Orion won't sell you any spares!

Possibly though not so sure Dave, my experience has been that OOUK will sell you spares, I have had a few bits and pieces from them, such as a spare set of PTFE bearings for the dob base ( a couple had become quite bashed and a bit loose), spare bolts for the trim after i'd removed to clean the mirror and I had inquired about a spare dust cover. I have purchased a RACI from them to. So quite handy if you do require spares whether new or used I got the impression it did not matter, however others might have had different experiences. Always best to phone of course.

[Dave Lloyd]

In that case I stand corrected, I'd heard that was their policy.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Dave Lloyd said:

In that case I stand corrected, I'd heard that was their policy.

That's the US Orion you are thinking of Dave, bit of a crazy policy I think!

[DRT]

On 18/08/2016 at 17:57, spaceboy said:

Yet a SW 200P new is £279 and I regularly see them sell used on ebay for £150-£200. I know which I'd prefer yet the mass produced Chinese scope holds it's value

I have seen this happen many times and it completely baffles me. Why anyone would buy a second hand scope for over £200 and have the hassle of driving miles to pick it up when they could have a new one delivered for a few quid more just seems bizzare.

As for the OO depreciation, perhaps it is more to do with the limited market for them? Having owned and read lots of reviews of many Chinese scopes here on SGL where people are extremely happy with what they deliver it really does limit the number of people who would be prepared to pay the huge premium for high quality optics and the much more expensive focuser and base that an OO UK Dob comes with. There are lots of people who would snap up a large 1/10th pv Dob for a few hundred pounds, but there are very few people who are prepared to spend twice that. Low demand = low price.

[Peter Drew]

At least, with telescopes, it's usually the price that depreciates, not the telescope.   

[ollypenrice]

On 18/08/2016 at 17:50, spaceboy said:

I am currently in the market for an OO dobsonian and in doing so I have searched the web for reviews, pro's and con's etc, etc to see which scope would best suit my needs. What has become very apparent and what seems to be largely accepted amongst the astronomy community is that Orion Optics scopes suffer huge depreciation over new prices. I know even if there is a similar spec on the mirrors anything built in the UK is going to have a higher than usual price tag associated to it that those coming out of China so I dare say OO scopes could be considered slightly over priced amongst the scope offerings out there but even so they do seem to have a reputation of offering high quality scopes even if their customer service is sometimes criticised.

I guess what I am asking is there something else I have missed for why the deprecation is so huge on these scopes? I did wonder if it might be because of the ally tubes and them not being as forgiving of knocks and scrapes ? I'm aware that Hilux coatings are highly recommended but I have also seen a few OO for sale that owners have quoted recently re-silvered on a scope that is only 2-4 years old ?? I know on some of the older OO scopes the focusers were less than ideal having a design flaw but this I believe has been addressed.

I'd have thought a big scope that is light with top grade mirrors and a well constructed base that is compact would be desirable and hold it's value yet last year I turned down a OO16" with 1/6 mirrors for £940 and have recently been offered a 4 year old VX14 with 1/10 optics for only £1k which is near enough 1 1/2 less than they are new. For most I guess the practicality of man handling or transporting such large scopes along with storing it obviously doesn't help re-sale value as the market is more reserved but even so given the cost of these things new you would have thought the prices would be more than they are. I know a couple members on SGL have OO that they purchased at a snap so it does seem to be the trend and not some one off bargains.

Am I missing something then? and if so what should I look out for when buying one ?

This post contains the understatement of the century regarding customer service. 

PMs welcome.

Olly

[spaceboy]

I have not dealt with OO directly Olly so felt it would be unfair to personally bad mouth their aftersales beyond that of comments I have read from others.

[Staffs Oatcake]

I'm fairly new to the world of telescope astronomy. But I'm the proud owner of an Orion Optics vx8 with a 1/10th Mirror upgrade.  I'm not planning on getting rid anytime soon so I'm not overally worried about depreciation.  As for customer services feedback I can say I have never had an issue with them. I've always found them friendly and polite, and as the factory is not that far away I can always pop in should I need to. 

[Starflyer]

Shhhh, don't go around saying secondhand OO scopes are undervalued, you'll increase the used prices!

I've had two bargain 10" f/4.8 OO scopes, the latest and current one a VX10 with 1/10 wave mirrors, it's a truly superb scope.

 

[spaceboy]

On ‎22‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 13:23, Starflyer said:

Shhhh, don't go around saying secondhand OO scopes are undervalued, you'll increase the used prices!

I've had two bargain 10" f/4.8 OO scopes, the latest and current one a VX10 with 1/10 wave mirrors, it's a truly superb scope.

 

I doubt it would make much difference to be honest. I think it is probably as Scooot said.......

 

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 19:11, Scooot said:

I think people compare the second hand price with the new price of other makes and think to themselves they'd rather have a new scope, so aren't prepared to pay more or nearly the same even for a second hand scope, albeit maybe a better one.

If you have a choice between a 2+ year old 12" OO selling for £699 or a new 12" Revelation dob delivered to your door for £550 more often than not the new one is going to be the obvious choice. No matter how better the optics might be in the OO I'd like to bet it would be a hard call to tell the difference in views between the two scopes on an average night here in the UK.

I would be interested to know if the production could match that of Sky-watcher just how much OO could offer their scopes at.

[faulksy]

6 minutes ago, spaceboy said:

I doubt it would make much difference to be honest. I think it is probably as Scooot said.......

 

If you have a choice between a 2+ year old 12" OO selling for £699 or a new 12" Revelation dob delivered to your door for £550 more often than not the new one is going to be the obvious choice. No matter how better the optics might be in the OO I'd like to bet it would be a hard call to tell the difference in views between the two scopes on an average night here in the UK.

I would be interested to know if the production could match that of Sky-watcher just how much OO could offer their scopes at.

hi spaceboy, like you say you havnt looked through a 00 dob/tube you also say i bet you would be hard pressed to see the differnce between a rev and 00. wrong mate.

00 do make amongst the best mirrors out there the optics are generally unbelievable and stars are so tight and bright you would think you was looking through something bigger, they are world class. no comment on there customer service

[Scooot]

It's not just the optics which are excellent. The scopes are very portable. They are lighter than than other scopes of the same aperture and they can be carried in two parts. Their footprint is much smaller for storage as well. But it's a personal choice of course and many prefer a new scope to a secondhand OO if the money's the same.  

 

[John]

I was pleased to get a 12" OO dob after my Meade LB 12". Apart from the optical performance, particularly at high power being better, there is a really significant weight difference. The OO weighs about 57 lbs all up wheras the LB 12" was 80 lbs plus !

My dob is made up from a pre-owned OTA and a OO-style dob mount made (really well !) by Moonshane.

If I'd not been able to find an OO 12" I think I'd have stayed with a smaller instrument as it has to be relatively easily portable to suit my needs. If I'd not found a used OTA I doubt that I'd have forked out the £1K for a new one though

 

[spaceboy]

6 hours ago, faulksy said:

hi spaceboy, like you say you havnt looked through a 00 dob/tube you also say i bet you would be hard pressed to see the differnce between a rev and 00. wrong mate.

00 do make amongst the best mirrors out there the optics are generally unbelievable and stars are so tight and bright you would think you was looking through something bigger, they are world class. no comment on there customer service

But would it be all that apparent living in the UK on the average nights seeing / transparency in a built up light polluted area ? I'm not knocking OO mirrors by the way, more so the UK skies. I'm sure OO mirrors are some of the best in the game but can they defy the laws of nature ? I know some years ago in my SW 200P I had the pleasure of experiencing what a 10/10 nights seeing would look like and it is really quite shocking the difference it can make to viewing the night sky objects. I'd like to think a OO mirror set would have been absolutely mind blowing on the same night but it confirmed to me that given the right conditions even using a cheap Chinese scope can perform beyond the usual expectations and is truth held back by the UK skies more so than it is the quality of the mirrors.

6 hours ago, John said:

I was pleased to get a 12" OO dob after my Meade LB 12". Apart from the optical performance, particularly at high power being better, there is a really significant weight difference. The OO weighs about 57 lbs all up wheras the LB 12" was 80 lbs plus !

My dob is made up from a pre-owned OTA and a OO-style dob mount made (really well !) by Moonshane.

If I'd not been able to find an OO 12" I think I'd have stayed with a smaller instrument as it has to be relatively easily portable to suit my needs. If I'd not found a used OTA I doubt that I'd have forked out the £1K for a new one though

 

This would be my main reason for being in the market John. After experiencing how light your OTA was at SGLX I was sold on the idea of an aluminium tube. I admit I have some doubts in the back of my mind to the durability of ally given the size and awkwardness of handling larger dobs in and out of cars but at home I can't see it being a problem as long as I'm careful going through door ways. 

When you say you wouldn't have forked out £1K John is that because of the price depreciation? or because you feel the additional cost isn't warranted when compared to others on the market? Your not the first to say you wouldn't buy new BTW.

 

Again this is what lead me to the thread in the first place. Everyone vouches for OO scopes both for mirrors and build (customer service not included) and I'm not doubting it, yet they don't seem to hold a good used value relative to a Chinese scope. Just for argument sake. What if a SW scope came as standard rolled in an ally OTA and on a lightweight small foot print base ? Would the mirrors of an OO still sway your decision to go with the pricier used scope ??

[Scooot]

2 hours ago, spaceboy said:

 

What if a SW scope came as standard rolled in an ally OTA and on a lightweight small foot print base ? Would the mirrors of an OO still sway your decision to go with the pricier used scope ??

If this were the case the price difference wouldn't be so much,so it's difficult to gauge.

I personally don't care about the used price because I don't intend to sell it. If I'd bought used I'd care even less because if I changed my mind and decided to sell they'd be even less depreciation.