Astronomik UHC or Lumicon UHC ?

[Dave In Vermont]

My worst experience with a filter was with the Mars 2003 Filter by Sirius.

This filter worked beautifully for one night - then a planet-wide Martian dust-storm (Mars gets feorcious dust-storms in place of the rain & clouds we Terran's have) completely obliterated the entire planet. This was at the height of the closest, most incredicle approach we'll see for centuries to come! But that was an an act-of-God and beyond us mere mortals. What was wrong with this filter was with the source itself - Sirius Optics.

This Mars 2003 Filter, for the one night before the Martian Weather-God intervened, provided exquisite views of surface details - the Maria jumping right out in my face! I wrote up my observations, and promptly published this in as many forums as it would be appropriate in. But it was too late - Sirius Optics had only made one, small batch of these. And discontinued them - for the time being (during the greatest opposition in recent history - past or future). If anyone got their recipe, they've remained tight-lipped to this day. What is available today, while claiming to be the same animal, falls short of this particular hybrid. Having bought a newer one, even a side-by-side look reveals a difference in colour and transmission-levels. Maybe they made the original with Unobtainium? Who knows.

Don't bother asking - I have no intention of selling this one. If but for one night, I had a session with Mars that took my breath away. I only wish Sirius had had the foresight to manufacture enough of these to go around. Other than that, every filter I've tried was good - even if not the best for it's intended use. By experimenting on a wide variety of objects you can stumble across a surprise of the pleasant type.

Have fun out there -

Dave

 

 

 

[jetstream]

14 minutes ago, N3ptune said:

@jetstream I am going to say, 260$ for a 1000 oaks filter is a lot of money and I can't  pay that much really. It's not going to happen ... I know it, my discipline is way too strong.

 

 

Yes they are a lot of money. Oddly enough the filter I threw away is recommended by some experienced observers and is mid range priced. The Orion Ultrablock is respected by many and I probably just got a poor one. Buying filters is like rolling dice...

If these filters are all like this one they are winners.

 

[BGazing]

I have TS OIII. They are good for the money optically, but have very problematic thread in some combinations. For instance, it will screw on my Hyperion 31 and 2 inch barrel of the Baader Zoom and on 2 inch Baader clicklock diagonal (albeit somewhat tightly on all of them, half turn or more), but will not screw on Paragon 40 (can't get any grip), nor on the Baader 2/1.25 clicklock adapter (iffy quarter turn). 

So I have an excuse to get Astronomik OIII :).

[N3ptune]

@BGazing

They are not easy to get here the Astronomik and the TS, it looks like it's a UK product.

--> What about the Orion UltraBlock ? I saw the graph for this filter and the OIII and H beta curve is really similar to the Astronomik, and other UHC. But it has nothing in the H Alpha range.  The price is higher then the Celestron but still way bellow the 1000 oaks.

Is it good?

https://www.amazon.ca/Orion-5657-UltraBlock-Narrowband-Eyepiece/dp/B0000XMUTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473420276&sr=8-2&keywords=orion+ultrablock

[BGazing]

44 minutes ago, N3ptune said:

@BGazing

They are not easy to get here the Astronomik and the TS, it looks like it's a UK product.

--> What about the Orion UltraBlock ? I saw the graph for this filter and the OIII and H beta curve is really similar to the Astronomik, and other UHC. But it has nothing in the H Alpha range.  The price is higher then the Celestron but still way bellow the 1000 oaks.

Is it good?

https://www.amazon.ca/Orion-5657-UltraBlock-Narrowband-Eyepiece/dp/B0000XMUTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473420276&sr=8-2&keywords=orion+ultrablock

TS is generic, they order a batch and brand it TS. You can purchase it, but it makes little sense to do so as the NA market is better supplied than the European market in general.

Astronomik filters you can get from the US vendors for sure.

Orion UB got good reviews, I have not tried it. I remember some people complaining that it threads with a lot of difficulty on some EPs/diagonals, more often than say Lumicon/Astronomik. Surely @Dave In Vermont has it in his case...

[BGazing]

On 08/09/2016 at 08:13, Dave In Vermont said:

And here's the Astronomik OIII:

 

We shall see -

Dave

Given that Vogel tested Astronomik OIII when it was 20nm and later 15 nm, and that currently it displays that both its visual and CCD OIII filters are 12nm, this is the reply I have gotten from Astronomik re the issue (reply reproduced with their permission):

Quote

Both filters share the same narrow band filter of about 12nm width, taking into account that the 501nm line emitts 3 times more light then the 496nm line. Also both designs can be used with telescopes as fast as 1:3, without any special order.

What differs in both filters is that the visual filter has a thin coating for blocking the visual light and the CCD version has a very thick coating for blocking IR and UV light from reaching CCD sensors. With thicker blocking layers it is more difficult to reach the highest transmissions. Because of this the best description of our current design of filters woul be:

visual:

typical 95-97% transmission for OIII used in an f/4-5 telescope

CCD:

typical 93-95% transmission for OIII used in an f/3-5 telescope

We have been able to reduce the bandpass from 15nm to 12nm, due to an increased steepness of the transmission that we have been able to achive.

Tighter OIII filters are not allways better. We find that it is very improtant to let both OIII lines pass. High transmissions for faster telescopes ad a few nm to the needed width. What is needed are 6,5-7nm of very high transmission, which can not be achieved in 10nm FWHM filters even with the most expensive coatings. This is the reason why we ended with 12nm filters.

 

[BGazing]

3 hours ago, N3ptune said:

@BGazing

They are not easy to get here the Astronomik and the TS, it looks like it's a UK product.

--> What about the Orion UltraBlock ? I saw the graph for this filter and the OIII and H beta curve is really similar to the Astronomik, and other UHC. But it has nothing in the H Alpha range.  The price is higher then the Celestron but still way bellow the 1000 oaks.

Is it good?

https://www.amazon.ca/Orion-5657-UltraBlock-Narrowband-Eyepiece/dp/B0000XMUTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473420276&sr=8-2&keywords=orion+ultrablock

Have a look at DGM NPB as well (designed by @Dan McShane). It is a UHC-type filter. I bought one recently and it works really well. It works particularly well IMO on M8 and M17 and due to certain of its passband characteristics it also apparently shows reds in M42 for some people. Since I just acquired it, I will have to look for it. Pricewise it is better than Lumicon and Astronomik (150 USD), yet some of the most experienced observers, like David Knisely, regularly refer to it it as their filter of choice.

[Dave In Vermont]

7 hours ago, BGazing said:

TS is generic, they order a batch and brand it TS. You can purchase it, but it makes little sense to do so as the NA market is better supplied than the European market in general.

Astronomik filters you can get from the US vendors for sure.

Orion UB got good reviews, I have not tried it. I remember some people complaining that it threads with a lot of difficulty on some EPs/diagonals, more often than say Lumicon/Astronomik. Surely @Dave In Vermont has it in his case...

As a matter of fact - I do. It works very well on a variety of subjects where a UHC-type filter is suggested, but it seems to work better on some others, too. It's a nice filter.

I never had problems with it's thread-pitch, but mine is an older one - bought back around 2001 or so from Orion. It was primarily being hyped for extreme LP (Light Pollution). While their Skyglo was for low-to-moderate LP.

Dave

[N3ptune]

Wow DGM has a great deal, combo sale, 2 filters for $190!! that's a great honest deal, I just can't believe it's true, if the filter is has good had they say on the website.

--> It seems I can order from Canada using Paypal, also which makes the thing easier.

http://www.npbfilters.com/

The spectral analysis, the NPB has Hb OIII and Ha has well.

http://www.npbfilters.com/spectral.html

This is the link to buy the combo! Should I order it ? (:

http://www.npbfilters.com/specials.html

[BGazing]

i like the npb a lot. do you need a combo? only you can answer that question.

[N3ptune]

9 minutes ago, BGazing said:

i like the npb a lot. do you need a combo? only you can answer that question.

I definitely need the combo there is no questions about that. The filter is useful on 1.25 and 2 inches EP. It's the first honest deal I see.

 

[BGazing]

if you have a 2 inch focuser than you need 1.25 filter only if you have only 1.25 eps and the adaptor (2 in to 1.25) is not threaded for 2 inch filters.

otherwise, buy a 2 in filter and you are basically futureproof.

unless you see a scenario where you see two identical filters in different sizes.

[N3ptune]

We have studied the situation bellow in the past. To use the 2" filters with my 1.25" EP the best solution was to get a Baader T2-15 but without knowing if my telescope will be able to reach focus using this adapter. (with a 2" filter at the bottom and using 1.25 EP). It could work but it's not certain 100%.

Looking at my simulation, I think it's a gamble.

T2-15 is 80$ with taxes and shipping it's expensive.

So yeah 2 good filters for +- 280 CAD I am motivated.

 

[BGazing]

okay, you know what sizes you need.

as for the quality of dgm npb, you can found more on the cloudy nights, as the filter is more popular in the states than in europe. it got its european distributor fairly recently (okularum).

 

[jetstream]

The Orion Ultrablock and the NPB are UHC type filters and I have ordered things from Europe very cost effectively, TS is supposed to be very good. Great reply from Astronomik- these are high quality filters...

[N3ptune]

2 people now say the NPB is a good filters (: I am happy to see some results regarding my UHCs project at last. ((: 

I owned a Ultrablock 15 minutes actually, I had to take it back because the coating had a strange defect like a stain cloud in galaxy shape. The text on the ring was not in line with the ring itself, the filter was terrible... is has dust on it in a "new" condition, seller said to clean the filter, a brand new filter.

I called the day before they had 3 filters and the next day, only that one with the haze cloud on the coating. (Seller said this was no defect)

So I took back my 125$.. he can buy the filter for himself  I guess.

[N3ptune]

Does anybody else who thinks I should get the NPB filter?

[Dave In Vermont]

I now have found another source of Astronomik-Filters in the USA, making for 2 I know of. OPT and now High Point Scientific. Here's High Point:

http://www.highpointscientific.com/telescope-accessories/filters/manufacturer:astronomik_filters

I'm glad there's not just one. Otherwise there'd be no competition to keep the prices inline with what it costs in Europa and the UK.

Take care -

Dave

PS - They do ship internationally.

[N3ptune]

@Dave In Vermont

Great, they have Astronomik filters available, I can't get any of these filters here.

[BGazing]

6 hours ago, N3ptune said:

Does anybody else who thinks I should get the NPB filter?

As @Dave In Vermont said, David Knisely is one of the reliable authorities on nebula filters. Here's his review on DGM NPB and it appears from his posts on the other forum that he still holds it in the same high regard:

http://www.cloudynights.com/documents/NPBfilterreview.pdf

He is not the only one. And than there's the price, half of what one has to pay for Lumicon UHC and less than one would have to pay for Astronomik UHC (who has recently tightened its bandpass so its UHC is now comparable to Lumicon and DGM NPB). These three, plus Orion UB, seem to come up again and again in threads as quality filters you cannot go wrong with.

[N3ptune]

On 2016-09-08 at 20:47, Dave In Vermont said:

 By experimenting on a wide variety of objects you can stumble across a surprise of the pleasant type.

That's true... my inexpensive OIII 1.25" filter served enough for me to understand that these filters works. Nice story with your Mars 2003 filter, you've got a rare gem for mars (:.  Thanks for your advices.

On 2016-09-08 at 21:01, jetstream said:

If these filters are all like this one they are winners.

It looks like the NPB has it all + H alpha and some frequency in the +-400 nm. It looks like a winner (;

23 hours ago, BGazing said:

@Dan McShane Pricewise it is better than Lumicon and Astronomik (150 USD)

It's an incredible price difference if their filter is approximatively the same has Lumi and Astro.

16 hours ago, BGazing said:

if you have a 2 inch focuser than you need 1.25 filter only if you have only 1.25 eps and the adaptor (2 in to 1.25) is not threaded for 2 inch filters.

otherwise, buy a 2 in filter and you are basically futureproof.

unless you see a scenario where you see two identical filters in different sizes.

Each time I look at a nebula the smaller ones, I use almost all my EPs. (32mm 2", 25mm (+2x barlow), 18mm and even 4.7mm.)  The view is beautiful in my 1.25" 25mm and 18mm. That's why I think it's a beneficial to have 1.25" and 2" You don't use 1.25 EP's much for the nebulae?

 

6 hours ago, BGazing said:

As @Dave In Vermont said, David Knisely is one of the reliable authorities on nebula filters. Here's his review on DGM NPB and it appears from his posts on the other forum that he still holds it in the same high regard:

http://www.cloudynights.com/documents/NPBfilterreview.pdf

I read the review yesterday, that was a great motivating review (:

Thanks for your advices on this subject, also thanks to Jetstream who convinced me not to buy the Celestron OIII, I almost did it.

[BGazing]

24 minutes ago, N3ptune said:

Each time I look at a nebula the smaller ones, I use almost all my EPs. (32mm 2", 25mm (+2x barlow), 18mm and even 4.7mm.)  The view is beautiful in my 1.25" 25mm and 18mm. That's why I think it's a beneficial to have 1.25" and 2" You don't use 1.25 EP's much for the nebulae?

 

If you have a 2 to 1.25 reducer on your dob that is threaded for 2 inch filters you do not need to buy a 1.25 filter. Rather, instead of screwing a 1.25 inch filter on the bottom of the eyepiece, you screw 2 inch filter on the bottom of the 2 inch to 1.25 inch adapter into which you are inserting your 1.25 eyepiece. In my opinion, if you want to use a filter and change eyepieces fl when experimenting, this is also a much more comfortable solution. If your reducer is not threaded, buy a quality threaded one, it's a good investment.

Of course, the DGM deal for both is good. I am just pointing out an alternative way to use this...

[N3ptune]

21 minutes ago, BGazing said:

If you have a 2 to 1.25 reducer on your dob that is threaded for 2 inch filters you do not need to buy a 1.25 filter. Rather, instead of screwing a 1.25 inch filter on the bottom of the eyepiece, you screw 2 inch filter on the bottom of the 2 inch to 1.25 inch adapter into which you are inserting your 1.25 eyepiece. In my opinion, if you want to use a filter and change eyepieces fl when experimenting, this is also a much more comfortable solution. If your reducer is not threaded, buy a quality threaded one, it's a good investment.

Of course, the DGM deal for both is good. I am just pointing out an alternative way to use this...

That's the discussion we had in another thread to use the 2" filters on the 2" to 1.25" Baader adaptor T2-15. The problem was it's not certain that my telescope will be able reach focus with such an adaptor.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/276718-2-inches-filter-into-125-~-2-inches-adaptor/

But honestly, the UHC filter will probably be the only filter I'll ever get for my 2" EP..  Maybe a OIII could come along some day but that's about it, there is no need for anything else 2"

[N3ptune]

I am now the proud new owner of a 2" and a 1.25" Narrow Pass Band (NPB) filters!

[BGazing]

well, we would have taken your word for it even without the printscreen LOL. hope you will like them.