EP Upgrade for 200p?

[joncrawf]

I'd like to begin upgrading my EPs for our SW 200P (F5) and I'm confused by the choice available. My son (8 years old) & I are enjoying planets & lunar at the moment, but we feel the urge to look deeper (DSO, binary stars, etc.). I'm returning to astronomy after a three decade break (had a 6" Newt on Alt Az back in the day) and my son is excited by the chance to see what's up there for the first time. I guess at this point we don't know whether we are into the solar system, lunar, DSO, etc. we just need to spend the next year or so getting (re)aquainted with the night sky.

So, what EPs should I be considering for an F5 reflector? I don't want to spend more than £100 per EP, unless there is some justification in spending more, but I guess the return on investment diminishes the more you spend?

I thought I'd start with a High Power EP (8mm?) and Low Power EP (25mm?). I'm happy to use the Barlow supplied with the scope for the time being (haven't used it much anyway). I've looked at Baader Hyperions and Celestron X-cel LX, so far.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

[kev100]

Hiya, before you start buying, it would be a good idea to try some beforehand, if it's at all possible. Is there a club near you? Or an experienced observer who could let you take a look? The reason being that what I regard as a good EP might not work at all for you. The eye relief could be too tight/too long, the field of view not wide enough. etc ... 

Having said that, the Explore Scientific 68 degree eyepieces are very good, and if your budget could stretch to one, an ES 8.8 82 degree Ep is very nice. Have a look on FLO's website.

Kev

[Knighty2112]

8 and 25mm EP's are a good start to add to your EP's. Yes, there are plenty of EP's to chose from. For the 8mm a good planetary EP will do you well for the moon and the planets obviously. Just got a second hand Williams Optics SPL which give really good views all across the filed, only the don't do 8mm size. They only do 3, 6 and 12.5mm in the range. Explore Scientific do a 24mm EP in their 68 degree range, and it just comes in under the £100 mark.

Ideally, getting to use any EP's before you decide on one is an ideal scenario if it is possible.  

[DRT]

1 hour ago, joncrawf said:

I thought I'd start with a High Power EP (8mm?) and Low Power EP (25mm?). I'm happy to use the Barlow supplied with the scope for the time being (haven't used it much anyway). I've looked at Baader Hyperions and Celestron X-cel LX, so far.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

I had a set of Celestron X-Cell LXs when I owned my 200P and liked them very much. The Explore Scientific 68 degree range are a step up in quality I think but a little more expensive. Baader Hyperions don't seem to cope well in fast scopes so I'm not sure those would be a good option.

Another range to consider is the BST Starguider/Explorers. They are very reasonably priced and many people here rate them very highly. They are also very easy to sell on if you decide to upgrade again. They are available new on Ebay for £49 each.

[joncrawf]

Thanks for your replies! I will do my best to get to try a few EPs out, I have made contact with the local astro society but haven't yet made it to an evening observing session. This is good advice, thank you.

Derek, I'd read somewhere that Hyperions are not the best choice for faster scopes, I guess mine at f5 comes into this category. You've helpfully confirmed this for me, so I'll cross this one off my list. 

I have been looking at the  Explore Scietific EPs on FLO. They suggest that they are "suitable for f5 or higher". I'm not sure what 'higher' means in this instance? does this mean "faster" or "numerically higher"?

[brantuk]

woops

Hyperions are better in slower scopes f-6, f-7,....f-10 etc. The ES eyepieces will cope better with f-5 and faster like f-4.5, f-4,... etc. But in my experience an 8mm Hyperion worked well in my old 12" f-5 dob - just a little tailing of in the last 15% of the fov - I would have preferred an ES though.

(I could split the 4 main trapezium stars with the 8mm Hyperion on a very clear night - but not the individual doubles if that helps).

[DRT]

2 hours ago, joncrawf said:

I have been looking at the  Explore Scietific EPs on FLO. They suggest that they are "suitable for f5 or higher". I'm not sure what 'higher' means in this instance? does this mean "faster" or "numerically higher"?

You should send that question to FLO via their web page for those EPs - they will answer very quickly and it might encourage them to clarify the description

 

[Space Beagle]

Another vote for the good old BST's, they do seem to work well on the 200P. I have had most of the range in the past and used them on my own 200P with great success - very good for the money!

Another option, which I have just taken advantage of an can highly reccommend, are the sale (ex display) ES68 eyepieces at Bresser. The 24mm and 16mm still seem to be available and at 75 Euros (about £68) i rekon they are a bargain!

Mine turned up after about a week and to be honest they look brand new, so am vey pleased with them.

The sale page is here:

http://www.bresser.de/en/Sale/Display-Items/6/

Hope this helps

Doc

[bingevader]

If there are any Maxvision eyepieces still out there, get them.

I think they did a 68° 24mm.

If not, then the Explore Scientific eyepieces are very similar, but not quite as cheap.

If you can stretch to it then the 82° 24mm Maxvisions are probably still around, 2", but lovely for the money.

I have an 8mm TV plossl, that is splendid.

I can also recommend the WO SPLs, but as mentioned, they don't come in the flavour you require.

The X-cel LX eyepieces also work very well in a 200p, but that'd be a 7mm not 8mm.

However, a number of 200p owners swear by the BST eyepieces mentioned above.

Cheers

[Charic]

.......there are more exotic and premium rated EP's out there,  I have a few myself, but I still favour my BST Starguiders on my f/6 scope.

[ronl]

BST Starguiders are all I need, they give me great views, very good eye relief, and above all comfort while 

observing, they suit me perfectly, but they may not suit everyone, it's up to the individual to decide, but I

am very happy with mine.  

[Charic]

On 5/11/2016 at 13:13, kev100 said:

 .............what I regard as a good EP might not work at all for you. The eye relief could be too tight/too long, the field of view not wide enough. etc ... 

Too true, you need to try them first, and this is now possible, even without joining a club, as the rules have changed in our favour for distance selling/buying.
I've  also noted some similar optics in your signature, that we both have,  and although they might not suit everyone, especially those cheap Revelations, ( why are they so good, bright and sharp and  only £15?)  and looking with my  eyes I think their superior to the supplied EP's , and  more comfortable.  

It takes time to get it right. I`m happy with my selection at present.

[joncrawf]

It's such a bonus to have this information available to me at SGL. How long would it have taken me to figure this out on my own? Many thanks for all of your replies, it blows me away that people are wiling to take time to help out a stranger by providing such detailed information.

When I had my first telescope (6" Newt on Alt Az) at the age of 13 I never considered buying any accessories for it (not that I could have afforded any). I'm sure the primary was probably OK but the EPs would have been very basic and I'd never even heard of collimation! Needless to say the views I got were pretty mediocre. I can remember it cost me (or my dad actually!) £270 which was a lot of money at the time.  When my son started asking for a scope for his birthday I was reluctant because I was worried that he'd expect to see hubble quality images and I remembered the slightly disappointing view I got from my 6" Newt 30 years ago.

But, I'm pleased to report that my experiences 2nd time around have been much better. Thomas has been blown away by the views he's got of Jupiter / Moon / Pleiades. I even hauled him out of bed at 3am a couple of weeks ago to see Mars & Saturn! He was less impressed with M31 (it was low on the Eastern horizon  which won't have helped) until I told him it was whole new galaxy that was racing towards us at 250,000 mph and will collide with us in 4 billion years!

Anyway, I've decided to take a punt and invest in a couple of BST's. They seem good value, and most folks who have them seem to get on with them. It will be difficult for me to arrange to try out other local astronomers EP's in a sensible time frame. 

Thanks again for your help and advice, it's truly appreciated.  

[bingevader]

Good choice, from the reviews on here, you won't be disappointed.

[Charic]

........I found this article very interesting......... http://umich.edu/~lowbrows/reflections/2002/cnielsen.2.html

It goes someway explaining the technical subject of eyepieces, why their just as important as the telescope itself and why some are better than others ( in the right telescope ?)

I still think the likes of my scope, no matter what the eyepiece, the eyepiece alone cannot improve the detail that is provided by the scope itself, only enlarge it, and too much enlargement degrades the image. You need to find the right combination of scope/eyepiece that matches your eyes alone, and being much older than your Son's, may not suit him or vice versa. Eyepieces can be a personal thing, and can cause so much debate.

I  now suggest to folk  buying a Newtonian, that their first eyepiece should have a focal length that  equals or closely matches their telescopes focal ratio, this is your high power power eyepiece and by multiplying the  telescopes focal ratio by the milimetres of the size of your pupil to give you your low power eyepiece, suitable for wide field, low power observations of galaxies. Anything in-between  to fill your case, taking into account that some eyepieces can be Barlowed.

I doubt you will find too much to complain about the Starguiders for their price and performance over the stock EP's. The  8mm BST wipes the stock 10mm, yet the supplied 25mm stock is workable. Just a pity BST's dont arrive with Sky-watcher, as their a good value  first upgrade without busting your wallet

Only issue that has been mentioned once before, and I had one? the twist-up eye guard -  just make sure it does rise throughout its operation. I had one that when twisted, just rotated instead of rising, due to the stiction/lubrication of the mechanism. If this is the case, just squeeze the eye-guard a little tighter, and it will rise. you only need to do this once, if at all.

Dark skies for you, and enjoy the views 

[Louis D]

Instead of one more eyepiece, for about the same money, pick up a Baader solar filter appropriately sized for your scope.  Your son will find looking at sunspots to be quite interesting.  It's also useful for the next partial solar eclipse or Mercury transit.

[joncrawf]

On 5/15/2016 at 04:18, Louis D said:

Instead of one more eyepiece, for about the same money, pick up a Baader solar filter appropriately sized for your scope.  Your son will find looking at sunspots to be quite interesting.  It's also useful for the next partial solar eclipse or Mercury transit.

Yes, I have a solar filter which we got for

• trying to get a photo of the ISS transiting the sun (still waiting for a transit close enough to home on a sunny day)
• and the  transit of mercury a couple of weeks ago (heavy rain all day!) 

but we've enjoyed looking at sun spots on the brief occasions the sun has made an appearance!

[Louis D]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 02:18, joncrawf said:

Yes, I have a solar filter which we got for

• trying to get a photo of the ISS transiting the sun (still waiting for a transit close enough to home on a sunny day)
• and the  transit of mercury a couple of weeks ago (heavy rain all day!) 

but we've enjoyed looking at sun spots on the brief occasions the sun has made an appearance!

Excellent!  Glad to hear it.

For your son, I'd recommend bright DSOs easily visible in smaller scopes like the Orion, Dumbbell, Ring, and Swan nebulae and many Messier open and globular clusters (plus a few he missed like the Double Cluster).  Galaxies just don't make much of an impression, however, except in much larger scopes.  Exploring Luna's terminator each night is also rewarding.  Watching Jupiter's moons transit Jupiter (or be occulted) is also enjoyable for the young crowd.  It's a real time astronomical event.  There are phone apps to help you find the timings.  Make sure to try and catch each Lunar eclipse visible from your area.  It's fun to catch the last and first penumbral rays on either side of totality through the scope.  It's also enjoyable to cruise up and down the galactic center near Sagittarius just to see what you can find randomly.

[joncrawf]

8 hours ago, Louis D said:

Excellent!  Glad to hear it.

For your son, I'd recommend bright DSOs easily visible in smaller scopes like the Orion, Dumbbell, Ring, and Swan nebulae and many Messier open and globular clusters (plus a few he missed like the Double Cluster).  Galaxies just don't make much of an impression, however, except in much larger scopes.  Exploring Luna's terminator each night is also rewarding.  Watching Jupiter's moons transit Jupiter (or be occulted) is also enjoyable for the young crowd.  It's a real time astronomical event.  There are phone apps to help you find the timings.  Make sure to try and catch each Lunar eclipse visible from your area.  It's fun to catch the last and first penumbral rays on either side of totality through the scope.  It's also enjoyable to cruise up and down the galactic center near Sagittarius just to see what you can find randomly.

Great advice Louis, thanks! Unfortunately it's well past his bedtime before any of these things become visible at the moment, but it leaves me free to use his scope, I guess!

I guess with galaxies there's something mind-blowing about being able to see something outside of our own galaxy. I think that's what captures his imagination. His world is pretty small and revolves around school, meal times, friendships, swim club, family etc. To be able to directly look at stuff which is light years or millions of light years away is quite a thing for him (and all of us I suspect!) - even if it is an indistinct "grey fuzzy".

Having said that, I think we'll move on to the easier DSO's in the autumn & winter. 

[DRT]

12 hours ago, joncrawf said:

Great advice Louis, thanks! Unfortunately it's well past his bedtime before any of these things become visible at the moment, but it leaves me free to use his scope, I guess!

I guess with galaxies there's something mind-blowing about being able to see something outside of our own galaxy. I think that's what captures his imagination. His world is pretty small and revolves around school, meal times, friendships, swim club, family etc. To be able to directly look at stuff which is light years or millions of light years away is quite a thing for him (and all of us I suspect!) - even if it is an indistinct "grey fuzzy".

Having said that, I think we'll move on to the easier DSO's in the autumn & winter. 

If you want something that will spark your son's interest you should read up about and then show him some globular clusters. Fascinating balls of stars that hover above and below the orbital disk of the galaxy and mind-blowingly far away given their size in the eyepiece. M13 is one of the easiest to find yet intriguing and impressive objects in our night sky. When you know the story of it it adds to the wow factor

[joncrawf]

9 hours ago, DRT said:

If you want something that will spark your son's interest you should read up about and then show him some globular clusters. Fascinating balls of stars that hover above and below the orbital disk of the galaxy and mind-blowingly far away given their size in the eyepiece. M13 is one of the easiest to find yet intriguing and impressive objects in our night sky. When you know the story of it it adds to the wow factor

I had a look at M13 the other night using my 25mm EP. It was an impressive sight despite being swamped by the light from an almost full moon, which made it hard even to locate the stars which make up Hercules. So far Thomas has only seen photos.

In fact we were talking about globular clusters on Sunday morning. He said "if you could go anywhere in the universe to see it close up where would you go?". We discussed all sorts of different sights that could be seen (given the ability to flout the laws the physics). We decided that; nebulae were best viewed from a distance, likewise galaxies, black holes were too scary (and who knows what might happen?), the solar system was 'old hat' (voyager, cassini, et al had "been there and done that"). But we thought that positioning yourself right in the middle of M13 would be pretty cool!

Sorry, this is getting way off topic!

[Timebandit]

Hello. As for eyepiece selection there is a vast amount of choices available these days and you can spend a vast amount. For your telescope which is at f5 so relatively fast you must be a bit more careful with your choice as you do not want to buy a eyepiece which is not happy with a fast scope. From my experience and what I have used and still use I don't think you can go far wrong with a televue plossel to which I have found sharp in my f4.6 DOB . These seem happy with a fast scope, there is a good range from 8mm up to 55mm so plenty of choice. The only down side is around fov is not in the wide field range and eye relieve can be a bit tight at the higher mag end 8mm. But overall I think the best bang for your buck in the price range. 

[Charic]

joncrawf......its a pity your in Devon and Im in NE Scotland? Try any one of my eyepieces on your f/5 scope and they  will bring a smile to your face.
To reiterate  my EP's above, to be honest, the best value EP's I own are the Revelations, I found the first couple on astroboot under the title GSO ?  These were bought  especially to create a  FULL Plössl set?
I favored and  wanted to collect some Meade 4000 Plössl's, even tried the TeleVue versions, due to their constant positive feedback from most folk, but the TV 8mm is uncomfortable in  use for me, as mentioned above, the eye-relief is very short, too short,  and TeleVue Plössl's stop at 8mm, I needed more,  6mm and beyond, but there are limits?  My  Revelation Astro 9mm feels good against the 8mm TV? but that's down to my eyes alone! Next up at 60° fov, ED  Starguiders, no problems here, can't fault them, comfortable in use, good eye-relief too. The William Optics 6mm SPL was my  preferred  EP of choice  ( tried a TMB Clone?)  to match the focal ratio of my scope, its still my primary 6mm, because BST have not produced a 6mm yet?.
I also  have a 6mm and 8mm Delos. They don't need any explanation, but to me they work just as well as my Starguiders, having just that  little extra field of view if needed, but timing and viewing conditions were unfavorable to me this Year, and with my skies so bright now,  as Summer rolls in, its going to be some time before the Delos get a real proper testing.

[joncrawf]

1 hour ago, Charic said:

joncrawf......its a pity your in Devon and Im in NE Scotland? Try any one of my eyepieces on your f/5 scope and they  will bring a smile to your face.
 

Charic. I wish I was in NE Scotland! It's a fabulous part of the world - although perhaps a bit frustrating with almost continuous daylight at this time of year! Am I right in thinking you enjoy some of the UK's lowest rainfall? And DARK skies in the winter months, what's not to like? 

I've had my 8mm & 25mm BST's out several times since they arrived a couple of weeks ago. So far they have lived up to the hype! Very comfortable for me to use (no problems with eye relief) and the apparent FOV makes you feel like you are in an IMAX. I'd love to compare with something with a really wide FOV!

I'll probably invest in another couple of BST's in the next few weeks. Perhaps a 5mm for planetary when the seeing is good and an 18mm to fill the gap between 8mm & 25mm.  I wondered if they barlowed well? Perhaps a good Barlow is a better idea than buying new eyepieces to plug the gaps?

I have tried my BST EP's with the 2x Barlow that came with the scope and I wasn't terribly impressed with the results. Not sure whether this was because a) the BST's don't barlow well, c) the seeing was poor or d) I was just trying to push my scope too far.

Also, I wondered what I should consider as my lowest power / wide field EP in my SW200p F5?     

[Rob]

I was about to add to this.. The Barlow is your next piece of equipment you need to acquire. Now don't scrape on this area, thats the first important thing to say!. I have a 2x APO Orion Shorty plus Barlow. Its around £65, but I've had that for near 10 years now, and used it with many EP's of different types & quality. Views are sharp, crisp and flat. So no matter what 1.25" EP you use, your certain to bring the best out it. Dont be tempted by cheap ebay ones.. just a waste of money. 

Best wishes

Rob