Paramount MX+ vs 10Micron

[Petergoodhew]

I'm struggling to chose between Paramount and 10Micron mounts for remote robotic operation.

Opinions sought!

[Davey-T]

Had them both on my short list but I've settled on the 10Micron mainly from a software point of view.

Dave

[Petergoodhew]

4 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Had them both on my short list but I've settled on the 10Micron mainly from a software point of view.

Dave

Dave, what was the software benefit with the 10Micron?

[Davey-T]

Just now, Petergoodhew said:

Dave, what was the software benefit with the 10Micron?

Per Frejvall, a member here has written his own software for the 10 Micron and is very active in supporting it.

Paramount use their own Software Bisque and I read some reports of problems, but lot's of imagers use it including Nick Symanek.

A nice choice to have but not an easy one

Dave

[Earl]

both are good mounts but have different strengths, the 10 micron been excellent for unguided work.

[andrew s]

I have an old Paramount ME and use the Sky X for local remote observing ( I open and shut the run off roof by hand). The software is excellent and I have had no issues with it. It is fully supported and if and when any issues have come up they have been quickly dealt with. 

I would recommend their mounts and software to any one considering robotic use. I have no experience of the 10Micron mount.

 

Regards Andrew

[Physopto]

I have the Software Bisque SkyX program and it runs fine. I have used it to control my 10 Micron GM1000HPS and before that my NEQ6, without any problems so far. (Still early days for the 10 Micron). As Dave said Per is active in supporting his software. The Model Maker is really easy to use and is mesmerising when going about its business. Anything that makes life simpler the better. His Stick Station works with the 10 Micron without any problems in the background. The 10 Micron is so accurate I cannot complain about any aspect at all.  The 10 Micron handles a bit more load than the Paramount MyT, which was partially my reason for buying it.

 If you are needing legs rather than a pier, the MyT legs are very expensive for what they are.

One point I so far have not found a satisfactory answer to is making the SkyX initiate a meridian flip. I have found no method of forcing one so far. You have to wait for the software to do so and that is not so good if you are near the meridian  and it  does so in the middle the next sub.

 

The choice between the 10 Micron and the MX I cannot give any ideas about, apart from the cost differences. £5250 MyT versus £5800 10 Micron versus £7850 MX. A very much  larger outlay for the last one. If I was looking at that I would have bought the 10 Micron 2000 HPS!

Nice choice though as has been said.

Derek

[perfrej]

I see my name up there

The main differences between the two are that 1) the 10Micron mount has absolute encoders, and 2) the 10Micron mount does all the modeling in mount, not in a PC/Mac on the side. The benefits are that the 10Micron cannot get lost even if you swing it around with frictions loose and no power. Once you turn it on it knows to a 10th of an arc-second where it is. Modeling means it does unguided imaging with long exposures and that, in turn, means you get away without guider, guide software, guider initialization, lost guide stars and guider cables.

I have two of these babies and love them both. That said, the Bisque mounts are good too, but technology wise I think they are way behind. And no, you cannot go wrong with any of them.

/per

[perfrej]

The pointing precision...

This is after the night's first exposure of 1200s (unguided) from my remote in Provence. Just came in

 

/per

[Petergoodhew]

16 hours ago, perfrej said:

The pointing precision...

This is after the night's first exposure of 1200s (unguided) from my remote in Provence. Just came in

 

/per

Per, i'm convinced!!  That.'s truly amazing performance.   I was down at Les Granges a week ago and saw the collection of 10Microns there.

[Barry-Wilson]

I took delivery of a GM1000hps yesterday courtesy of that nice Mr King and spent a happy few hours installing, cabling, balancing and polar aligning; looking forward to my first modelling run this evening.

I purchased the mount for all of Per's recommendations (he does like to proselytize about 10 Micron  and having seen the mount I now know why) and aim to gather the equipment for a remote setup over the next couple of years (keeping my Avalon Linear FR for use in my home observatory when the GM is placed somewhere).

The mount was a joy to use, straightforward setup with Ethernet to my obs router, the virtual keypad made balance and a couple of iterations of 3-star align for polar align a breeze (its interface is a little basic, but it is only a mimic of the handset after all).  Per's ascom driver interfaced with SGP and CdC for the slews and pinpoint for solves.  After 4 star align, my target align stars where all pretty much centre of the ccd.

I couldn't be happier.

Barry

[Petergoodhew]

44 minutes ago, Barry-Wilson said:

I took delivery of a GM1000hps yesterday courtesy of that nice Mr King and spent a happy few hours installing, cabling, balancing and polar aligning; looking forward to my first modelling run this evening.

I purchased the mount for all of Per's recommendations (he does like to proselytize about 10 Micron  and having seen the mount I now know why) and aim to gather the equipment for a remote setup over the next couple of years (keeping my Avalon Linear FR for use in my home observatory when the GM is placed somewhere).

The mount was a joy to use, straightforward setup with Ethernet to my obs router, the virtual keypad made balance and a couple of iterations of 3-star align for polar align a breeze (its interface is a little basic, but it is only a mimic of the handset after all).  Per's ascom driver interfaced with SGP and CdC for the slews and pinpoint for solves.  After 4 star align, my target align stars where all pretty much centre of the ccd.

I couldn't be happier.

Barry

Thanks Barry. Will be good to hear how you get on with it. 

Any thoughts yet about where you will put your remote setup?

Peter

[Barry-Wilson]

Evening Peter.

I'm making good progress setting everything up - I've a small 19 point model and took a couple of hours of data last night with guiding, albeit very gentle settings.  I had terrific guiding at 0.4"/px with my imaging scope (WO132FLT - very heavy at both ends with objective and flattener/ccd, ie large moment) whereas with the Avalon I would get 0.7"/px with this scope.  I need to carry out another PA iteration to improve on a coarse 1' 39" error to improve guiding but I will wait until I've finished my current project M94.

This evening I've set a custom park so I can automate roof closure; my scope sits higher than on the Avalon Linear FR, the GM1000HPS is markedly bigger.

I'm not sure where I will site the scope for a robotic remote, maybe IC Astronomy Ian King's and Colin Cooper's establishment.  Would be nice to find a partner to share kit and costs, someone with shared objectives and mututal trust.  Not easy as our hobby can be quite isolating!

Have you made your mind up on the mount?  I see Ian King is advertising a secondhand MX, there is also an AP1200 on AB&S . . . all tempting.

[perfrej]

Barry,

There is absolutely no reason to get better polar alignment than what you now have. That thinking belongs in the old school mount group. Your mount tracks in both axes with encoders in the actual motor feedback loop. This is opposed to the old school way of dual  axis tracking where the actual rates are changed. In a 10Micron mount, the model is the adjustment, and it does it by positioning the mount at the place where the encoders give the right values, not by increasing or decreasing a movement so that a positional goal is eventually met.

The next question is why you hooked up a guide scope  What on earth prompted you to add that complexity to the equation? I fellow astronomy buff here in Sweden takes unguided images with his GM1000HPS carrying a monstrous AG-12(!).

I would continue the tests unguided in order to reduce a complicating factor. I am quite confident that you will get equally good results without guiding.

Now, concentrate on model building and getting the expected RMS error from the alignment report down to 5" or better. After that, you can sell your guider...

 

On the mount choice note, the Bisque mount handles unguided imaging the old way with rates adjustments and all the decisions handled in the PC or Mac. It is equally modern in the pure mechanical sense with a belt driven first stage reduction. AP mounts still have gear-box type reduction with some nylon parts and need to re-meshed and serviced regularly. 10Micron recommends you send your mount to the factory at 10-year intervals for preventive maintenance, that's it.

 

Unguided is the way of the future...

 

/per

[Barry-Wilson]

I couldn't agree more Per: building a model to go unguided is my goal.

I connected the OAG on my QSI683 as a short-cut to finish my current project within a comfortable and known 'guided environment'.  You're right and I have to make the transition to unguided.  I finished gathering my last Green and Lum data last night so will turn to the model building task

One quick question, should I be setting the mount to J(Now) in your ascom driver?  I have it set to J2000 (calculate on the fly) currently as SGP uses J2000, but beginning to think that isn't necessary.

[perfrej]

Model Maker requires the mount to be in J2000, but otherwise it usually doesn't matter. The software in question queries the driver for coordinate settings and adapts to it.

 

/p

[Barry-Wilson]

Peter - if it's any help I've pasted a screenshot of a single uncalilbrated UNGUIDED 600s sub of NGC3718.  My PA could still be improved and this is from a 40 point model.  I do have the Blue Astro Stickstation which automatically provides temp and humidity for Per's ascom driver and refraction calculations and I am synching time from pc to mount using the 10 micron tool.  From what I can gather from the 10 micron forum these all help the accuracy of tracking.  The stars in the top right corner are ever so slightly oblate (not by much) in comparison to the other corners, but I was very pleased for my first real model as a newbie with my GM1000HPS.

Everyone, please feel free to laugh your socks off with the number of satellite trails !!

CS!

Barry

[Physopto]

Barry,

Just wondering about you post there of NGC3718. You say the top right shows stars a bit oblate. I am puzzled as that is the point in the photo closer to the pole star, as Polaris is off to the top right, quite a way off. I would have expected the whole area to show that if you were a bit off in the alignment.

I think it is a really good start anyway! I am just curious that's all.

I kept getting satellites as well in my Orion subs at times, a pain in the rear. 

The GM 1000HPS is a stunning mount, love mine.

Derek

 

[Barry-Wilson]

Thanks Derek.  I do rather imply that the PA and small elongation in the corner are related - not really thought that through this morning.

Looking now at the other subs the corner oblateness is not present in many of them (sometimes it is in the top left).  I have my WO FFIV connected using the compression ring in the 2" push fit adapter of the FT focuser.  I may just check that that is seated properly.  I do have the Precise Parts adapter to give a screwed connection however that pushes the focuer out from about 1.4cm to 4.5cm, giving some opportunity for movement even though the 3.5" FT focuser is a wonder.  Nevertheless, the mount's accuracy is a remarkable.

Off now to calibrate and stack my 14 x 600s subs to see what I have for my first unguided imaging.

[perfrej]

Field rotation shouldn't show in a 10-minute sub, so it is most definitely some sagging in the image train. So, all good, then!

 

/p

[ollypenrice]

Down in SE France things are not going so well. I'm trying to get a GM1000 running with a 10 inch Meade SCT at 2.5M FL in the remote shed. We're struggling to plate solve (attempts only rarely succeed) so it's rather tricky. PA is not yet right but getting it right is not easy using the software methods because we don't have a finder, we have a small FOV, and finding the alignment stars is interminable. In the confines of the robotic location trying to get to an EP is murder (we tried using a temporary spotter but it was still impossible single handed) so I just want to do a normal drift alignment first. WIth the physical constraints of the location that will be easy. So for me we have a solution in sight to that. Better PA may solve the plate solving, so to speak. But...

I'm also very worried about the amount of backlash, now in RA. It has been back to the factory for attention to backlash in Dec, which is now much better but not as good as the three GM2000s down here.

However, the RA backlash is considerable. If I hold the rim of the Meade's corrector between forefinger and thumb and wiggle it gently I can see the counterweights wiggle as well. This is quite unlike the GM2000s which are rock solid, as are the two Mesus down here. Damping time is just under a second, by estimation, so not bad, but this really is not a stiff setup. I've given it some excercise in RA, slewing it back and forth to see if the worm will come into better mesh (they're spring loaded I think?) but this hasn't had any effect.

So, if you will, how are the other GM1000s on here in terms of backlash? Can you feel any? Does it sound from my description that this one is wrong? It cerainly feels very wrong to me.  Any ideas?

Olly

[andrew s]

14 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Down in SE France things are not going so well. I'm trying to get a GM1000 running with a 10 inch Meade SCT at 2.5M FL in the remote shed. We're struggling to plate solve (attempts only rarely succeed) so it's rather tricky

Now this is where a Paramount with The Sky with its "All Sky" blind "Image Link" would have helped! Assuming the field was at least 10 x 10 arc minutes!

Regards Andrew

[Big Bang!]

Hi Olly,

I have a GM1000 with a fairly hefty RC250TT on it (2000mm f/l); I cannot feel any backlash at all , feels rock solid to me. Your description suggests it is not consistent with the build quality expected. Would it help to run it slightly out of balance?

Gus

[perfrej]

The plate solving is not an issue, really. You solve manually in Maxim (which has a spiral search option) or in Pinpoint user interface  (which has Astrometry.net as allsky option) and sync on that result at three evenly spaced points. That will get you the first three points in the model, which in turn cancel out encoder offsets, and after that you continue with Model Maker. Peter and were going to try that a night or two ago, but I think the camera was somewhere else or something.

 

A GM1000 does have a little tiny amount of play in the axes sometimes. It shouldn't be much, though. There are several people in the community with 2.5m FL and GM1000s, and the results are good.

 

/p

[Physopto]

From the start after getting the GM1000 I have run it with something just over 23 kilos on the mount without any backlash discernible. But it is early days for me as it has only had about two weeks actual running. No visible movement in stars at all. Nothing to see when looking at the mount or when fitting or removing parts. 

Sounds like you have a problem, very worrying to hear.

Derek