Setting my Expectations

[JohnP292]

Hello all!

I'm taking my second attempt at amateur astronomy, this time with my 7-year old daughter coming along for the ride.  The first time was before the days of the internet and I was one of the many who bought a cheap telescope in a department store and got frustrated. 

This time, I'm a little (but only a little) better prepared, having done a bit of online research, reading, and even some viewing using a pair of binoculars (and was amazed how much I saw!).  At one point I think I may have even spotted one of Jupiter's moons in the binocs, was that possible or was a really seeing a nearby star?

As I'm continuing to learn, I invested a small amount in a Celestron Powerseeker 114 to get started.  I've only had it a few days, the first night failed miserably because I didn't have the spotting scope aligned right.   The next day I was able to get it lined up nicely by zeroing in on a flag that is atop a mountain in the desert behind our house.    The flag isn't visible to the naked eye but since I knew where it was I was able to find it in the telescope's viewer and after some tinkering I was also able to get the spotting scope lined up to it as well.   By the time I finished it was dusk and Jupiter had risen.   I zeroed in on Jupiter with the spotting scope and was thrilled when I immediately could see Jupiter in the telescope's viewer!  Here's where my questions start regarding what I should have expected. 

First off, in the best view I was able to achieve, Jupiter appeared as a silvery disc using the 4mm eyepiece.  I think I was able to see some detail, but its hard to say as I was also seeing a lot of floaters (I'm 55 so I understand this may be normal?) but no colorations.   When I researched my purchase I relied somewhat on online reviews where the reviewers had included photos allegedly taken with this scope, and Jupiter appears more colorful and detailed.  Am I hoping for too much?  Do I need to use different optics for a better view?

Secondly, the secondary mirror and its mount are clearly obstructing the view, but I did not notice this during the day when I was looking at the mountain.   Why is this?  Am I doing something wrong? 

Thanks for any advice, I will no doubt have more questions as we progress!

[REG78]

Hi and welcome have u tryd collimating your scope yet tht could be your problem

[REG78]

And also 4mm EP your using might be abit to much aswell

[JohnP292]

3 minutes ago, REG78 said:

Hi and welcome have u tryd collimating your scope yet tht could be your problem

I have not, but wondered if I should.  I did get a collimating eyepiece (not a laser though) when I ordered the scope.  I'm a little intimidated by the idea but I will try.  Will that address the issue of the secondary mirror being visible?

[JohnP292]

3 minutes ago, REG78 said:

And also 4mm EP your using might be abit to much aswell

What would be better?  The scope came with the 4, a 20, and a barlow.  I tried all three last night.  In the 20 (no barlow) I could brightly see the entire planet and with the 4 I could see sections but not the whole sphere at once.

[REG78]

Yea shud do think it will align your secondary with your focuser shudnt be getn in your way might just need wee tweek here n ther 

[MarkJ44]

Hi John

In addition to any specific advice provided by others, i suggest having a read of the the thread "what can i expect to see" in the Beginners - Getting started with Observing section, it is pinned at the start. (apologies if you have already read that). Good luck with your observing it takes time and patience when you first start out.

[brantuk]

I wouldn't give too much credence to the pictures on the box or advertising gumph - it's never like that in reality. There's a lot to learn when you get a new scope - eg how to operate it and what to expect under which conditions.

Viewing a mountain a few miles away on Earth is a lot different to viewing a planet hundreds of millions of miles away. You will need to refocus for sure and that is your first problem. Once focused right you won't see the central obstruction at all. You will also need to change magnification and ensure you stay within the limits of your instrument. Start low and increase power gradually for best results.

You also need to learn how to judge conditions - specifically "the seeing" which involves clarity of the atmosphere as well as transparency. Choose objects that are high in the sky - near the horizon you are looking through more atmosphere. Chose a dry night - humid nights make the sky appear to boil and bubble. Usually the very best nights are in the middle of winter when it's clear, transparent, but also cold (so wrap up well).

You'll only see colour on planets and one or two specific dso's - everything else is black/white or shades of grey. The colour images you see in magazines and on the net are taken with cameras which are more sensitive than the human eye. And even those are processed. Hope that gives you a few pointers.

(Oh and don't touch collimation till you know what you're doing or you'll screw it up - we all did that lol - get a demo first maybe from someone at your local astro soc).

[REG78]

I'm just new to this myself I'm getn great views with my 10mm tht came with my scope so try your 20mm with Barlow makes it a 10mm might be bit blurry depends on th Barlow though see how tht goes

[Knighty2112]

Depending on the seeing conditions on each night will depend how much and how well the detail you can see on Jupiter and other planets too. With good seeing you can make out Jupiters belts, possibly the Great Red Spot, and if lucky also the shadow of one of Jupiter's moon across the face of Jupiter when they occur. On all but a really bad night you should see the four Galilaian moons Io, Europa, Callisto & Ganymede around the planet too. The 4mm EP may have been too much for the seeing conditions when you observed it. In that case it is best to use a lower magnification where you get a steadier and clearer view. 

You can upgrade your EP's and get better ones to use with your scope rather than the stock ones you got. I have a 4mm stock Celestron eyepiece too, and the views really aren't great through it except when used on the moon. A decent plossl EP won't break the bank, and getting a planetary one with a wider exit lens too to see through would make life even easier.

[JohnP292]

10 minutes ago, MarkJ44 said:

Hi John

In addition to any specific advice provided by others, i suggest having a read of the the thread "what can i expect to see" in the Beginners - Getting started with Observing section, it is pinned at the start. (apologies if you have already read that). Good luck with your observing it takes time and patience when you first start out.

Thanks I did just read that, I'd be happy getting views similar to the ones shown in the pics that is what I was anticipating (not the Hubble quality images...lol).

[JohnP292]

16 minutes ago, brantuk said:

I wouldn't give too much credence to the pictures on the box or advertising gumph - it's never like that in reality. There's a lot to learn when you get a new scope - eg how to operate it and what to expect under which conditions.

Viewing a mountain a few miles away on Earth is a lot different to viewing a planet hundreds of millions of miles away. You will need to refocus for sure and that is your first problem. Once focused right you won't see the central obstruction at all. You will also need to change magnification and ensure you stay within the limits of your instrument. Start low and increase power gradually for best results.

You also need to learn how to judge conditions - specifically "the seeing" which involves clarity of the atmosphere as well as transparency. Choose objects that are high in the sky - near the horizon you are looking through more atmosphere. Chose a dry night - humid nights make the sky appear to boil and bubble. Usually the very best nights are in the middle of winter when it's clear, transparent, but also cold (so wrap up well).

You'll only see colour on planets and one or two specific dso's - everything else is black/white or shades of grey. The colour images you see in magazines and on the net are taken with cameras which are more sensitive than the human eye. And even those are processed. Hope that gives you a few pointers.

(Oh and don't touch collimation till you know what you're doing or you'll screw it up - we all did that lol - get a demo first maybe from someone at your local astro soc).

Good advice, I think I will stay away from collimation for a bit.  The most frustrating thing was the shadow of the secondary appearing right in the middle of Jupiter when viewed through the 20. Any thoughts on that?

By refocus...I assume you mean with the focuser on the viewer?  I did do that, of course, I wasn't expecting point-and-shoot.  Or is there something else I'm missing?

I'm in the Arizona desert, so low humidity is the norm here, and it was actually quite chilly (for central AZ) last night.

There happens to be a star party nearby next weekend I was planning on going to but the wife nixed that plan

[brantuk]

" The most frustrating thing was the shadow of the secondary appearing right in the middle of Jupiter when viewed through the 20. Any thoughts on that? "

Yup - too high magnification - use a lower power eyepiece to begin with (eg a 20mm or 25mm) and get focused sharply. Bear the conditions in mind when focusing - it can be easy to blame the instrument when the atmosphere is the real culprit. And only go to higher mag (shorter eyepieces) when conditions allow. You'll soon know when it's too much cos the view will go "grainy". Hth

[John]

4 minutes ago, JohnP292 said:

Good advice, I think I will stay away from collimation for a bit.  The most frustrating thing was the shadow of the secondary appearing right in the middle of Jupiter when viewed through the 20. Any thoughts on that?

 

I'm in the Arizona desert, so low humidity is the norm here, and it was actually quite chilly (for central AZ) last night.

There happens to be a star party nearby next weekend I was planning on going to but the wife nixed that plan

If you can see the shadow of the secondary and it's supports then the scope is not at focus.

As you adjust the focus and get nearer to sharp focus the star or planet disk will get smaller and smaller. The secondary shadow will vanish and when the image is at it's smallest, you are at focus.

Even mighty Jupiter will probably look surprisingly small in your eyepiece when it's at sharp focus - it's one of the comments that most folks make when viewing planets initially - "isn't it small !".

 

 

[JohnP292]

1 hour ago, John said:

If you can see the shadow of the secondary and it's supports then the scope is not at focus.

As you adjust the focus and get nearer to sharp focus the star or planet disk will get smaller and smaller. The secondary shadow will vanish and when the image is at it's smallest, you are at focus.

Even mighty Jupiter will probably look surprisingly small in your eyepiece when it's at sharp focus - it's one of the comments that most folks make when viewing planets initially - "isn't it small !".

 

 

OK, I will give it another try tonight if the partly cloudy skies I currently have clear up! 

[Dave In Vermont]

The 4mm eyepiece would give you 225X. That is about the theoretical maximum magification of your scope. I would suggest using a lower power eyepiece(EP) to learn the subtlies of using the focuser for the best, sharpest images from your EP's. So I agree with Brantuk, etal. And I'd lose the Barlow for now. The thread of 'What can I expect to see' should give you a more realistic view of 'what is' instead of the advertizers 'reviews.'

This is why so many people flock to astronomy-forums like this one (Though this one is the best - in my opinion), we are actual end-users of the equipment - with no affiliation with the manufacturers - and are happy to share our knowledge and experience.

Oh and this: Greetings and welcome to SGL - it's nice to have you aboard! I envy your Arizona skies - I've been there - simply breathtaking!

Keep going - you're in good hands.

Dave

[JohnP292]

Well the weather for tonight is going to stay cloudy so I guess my experimenting will need to wait another day.  But thanks for all the advice so far (and more is welcome).  I'll be sure to follow up with results after my next attempt.

[JohnP292]

3 minutes ago, Dave In Vermont said:

The 4mm eyepiece would give you 225X. That is about the theoretical maximum magification of your scope. I would suggest using a lower power eyepiece(EP) to learn the subtlies of using the focuser for the best, sharpest images from your EP's. So I agree with Brantuk, etal. And I'd lose the Barlow for now. The thread of 'What can I expect to see' should give you a more realistic view of 'what is' instead of the advertizers 'reviews.'

This is why so many people flock to astronomy-forums like this one (Though this one is the best - in my opinion), we are actual end-users of the equipment - with no affiliation with the manufacturers - and are happy to share our knowledge and experience.

Oh and this: Greetings and welcome to SGL - it's nice to have you aboard! I envy your Arizona skies - I've been there - simply breathtaking!

Keep going - you're in good hands.

Dave

Thanks Dave.

 

Its an amazing state, we moved here about 4 years ago from the northeast.   We bought on older RV last year so we could travel around.  I'm looking forward to taking the telescope on our next visit to Grand Canyon to have a look at the skies from there. 

[Dave In Vermont]

6 minutes ago, JohnP292 said:

Well the weather for tonight is going to stay cloudy so I guess my experimenting will need to wait another day.  But thanks for all the advice so far (and more is welcome).  I'll be sure to follow up with results after my next attempt.

We'll be here! Learning to collimate your Newtonian will be the worst time you'll have with a telescope - but after the First-Time, you'll wonder what the fuss was about!   Then it's like riding a bicycle - you never forget how to do it. In fact - you can download this and read it when you're bored:

http://www.astro-baby.com/collimation/astro%20babys%20collimation%20guide.htm

Written by a member here. Ackowledged far & wide as one of the best, it's lucid and demystifies this dreaded subject. But take your time and relax. You'll be the guy who answers the questions sooner than you think!

Dave

[JohnP292]

Success!!!

Using the advice above, I ordered a Meade 15mm Plossl eyepiece and last night spent some time with it.  Of course I don't have to tell you the advice about not being in focus was spot-on.  I lined up Jupiter again and within minutes I got some incredible views.  Beautiful sharp image of the planet, clearly saw three moons and I could see the bands.  I did not see the spot, but I've no idea if it should have been visible or not last night.  Yes, the planet appeared small but that's ok.  Even my wife was impressed with the view.  My daughter was asleep already so she hasn't seen it yet, but I'll fix that tonight!

I'm already itching to be able to take photos but I need to walk before I run....

Very noticeable difference between the Meade EP and the stock one that came with the scope, just in the feel of it you could tell the better quality.  Once I had a good view of the planet centered, I switched the Plossl for the stock 20mm.  I could still see pretty well but I was not able to focus it as sharply.  Right back to the new one.

Thank you all so much for the help and advice, I'm thrilled with the results and I'm sure you saved me, at a minimum, hours of frustration.  

[brantuk]

Excellent news John - congratulations!

I have a couple of Meade eyepieces too - they're generally much better quality than the ones supplied with scope (which are usually there just to get you going out of the box). Happy stargazing from now on

[Putaendo Patrick]

In my opinion, Celestron in particular supply pretty poor EPs with their less expensive telescopes (then invite you to upgrade to one of their kits - DON'T!). Your 25mm should be "good enough", but the 4mm and Barlow seem primarily oriented to achieving the maximum magnification printed on the box! With better EPs (such as the Meade you've now got) your telescope will give you a lot of interest for quite a while!

[JohnP292]

Here's another quick update ...

Last night I got the telescope set up again to view Jupiter, but this time I was able to show my daughter (7). She had some difficulty adjusting to looking through the eyepiece at first, and I had to adjust the scope several times as Jupiter ascended out of view before she got the hang of it.  I finally got it to a point where it was centered so well I could see the planet shining through the EP from a few feet away, and had her look.  It took a second, but the little gasp she made when she found it made this telescope worth every penny I paid for it.  Once she understood how to look with one eye and find the body of the planet, she found the moons and after a bit of looking she saw the bands too.  

She's also been browsing through Nightwatch which I bought before the telescope came, and talking with me about it a bit.  After she looked at Jupiter for a while, she looked up and right away pointed out the Big Dipper and, even more impressive, all the stars in Orion.  

Great night, great memories.  I need to figure out how to top that.  Saturn maybe, but it currently rises too late.  

 

Thanks again for the advice that made this possible!

[brantuk]

Sounds like a fabulous rewarding session for you both - glad you're enjoying the new scope.

[Dave In Vermont]

John - seems I've neglected to post a link to a nice software-program to help you two with your Jupiter viewing.

The following link will take you to a website where you can download 'Jupiter 2.' Just follow the directions and install it on a computer. Then it will tell you which of the 4 major moons of Jupiter are which. And show you the position of the GRS - the Great Red Spot. The location of the GRS is approximate, as it is in the clouds of Jupiter and does get moved around, but it will be pretty close. The program is free:

http://astrosurf.com/rondi/jupiter/

It's from France, so choose the English-version unless you speak French.

Have fun you two!

Dave