What type of scope + size could be my next telescope?

[scarp15]

45 minutes ago, Linda said:

I have quite a lot of stray lights from neighbours around my house. Last autumn I could just see the Milkyway in direction South. But when the snow came, that disappeared. At the snow will last to the spring. Now the sky is much lghter, blueish, not black at all. And my viewing area at home is due east, where I look out over the capital and it's light polution.

We also have a cabin in the country side with truely dark skies, but we don't go there often. And when we go there, the weather does not always cooperate. Last time I didn't even bother to bring the scope. I have only observed there once, around new year and then I was even less experienced than I am now.

I am in no hurry at all to buy the new scope. I should definitively try out my current scope more under dark skies and then look at familiar objects to compare with how they look at home.

But it is good that you mention it, because I am looking for a scope to use mainly at home. If a 10" Dob doesn't show much more there, then what is the point?

Good plan to take your current scope to a dark sky, familiar objects will become brighter and more resolved. Equally having a scope with a bit more aperture yet one that is convenient to handle will provide good performance from home light polluted skies, whilst enabling easy transport on occasions to take to a dark sky location such as your cabin.  I think that this is how it is for many. I do enjoy and use my scopes from home and can satisfactorily extract the best I can underneath quite light polluted circumstances, yet whenever possible (which is not near often enough) I can comfortably take to a dark sky location where upon they reveal their true capability.  Also good not to hurry, enjoy what you have, evolving within this exciting (and quite costly) pursuit is something to relish over many successive years.

 

[Daniel-K]

get a TEC140 you wont have any of the issues your worried about

[Linda]

11 hours ago, Daniel-K said:

get a TEC140 you wont have any of the issues your worried about

Sounds like a really great scope. But I don't think my husband will understand the need of me spending almost 6000 dollars on a new scope. (Yes, I do earn my own money, but it is still one household.) He still has some trouble seeing the need for a second scope in the first place, but I think I can handle that. 

Apart from that, the Norwegian currency is very weak at the moment and we pay a lot for each American Dollar and Euro, about 20% more than a year ago. Something to consider... Great opportunity for you foreigners to come and spend your holiday over here by the way.

[YKSE]

12 hours ago, Linda said:

I am in no hurry at all to buy the new scope. I should definitively try out my current scope more under dark skies and then look at familiar objects to compare with how they look at home.

You have done very well to have bagged 59 DSO with 127Mak, I would certainly recommend dark site trip so that you see the difference with your own eye.

My recommendation about the scope update has always been: get the largest one you're comfortable to travel to a dark site! Because even a small scope there will show you more than a large one in light-polluted backyard, as described in Acey's post here

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/240725-what-is-a-dark-site/

A large scope in dark site will let you see much more small faint fuzzies, and more details in large fuzzies.

[niallk]

Hi,

I love my 250px solid tube.  It might be worth keeping an eye on the US reviews of the ES truss dobs (there is a 10" model) - to see if the quality control issues are now addressed.  Could be worth considering in due course, as you mentioned not being in a rush?  

Best of luck,

-Niall

[glennbech]

This is a very interesting thread!

I am in the same situation. I have a good quality 90mm refractor. Now I am thinking about what my next scope will be. The obvious choice would be a Dobsonian. The 10" non-goto is very reasonably priced where I live. Half the price of the 12". 

But. Then I read observation reports from people who have 10 and 12 inch scopes and bad skies, and how they see very little detail.  I suddenly think back to a ski trip in 2009 with my Megrez 90 and Porta mount in my backpack. Two of the three Leo triplet galaxies were clearly visible with direct vision, and I could  tease out the third with minimal effort. I can also travel to pretty good skies, 30 minutes by car. 

I can't decide on 

1) Brute force my mediocre skies at home with a pseudo-permanent 16".

2) 10" Dobsonian that I can travel with by car. I don't think the 12 inch is easy to travel with... 

3) Break my bank account on a larger refractor and travel to darker skies.  I am also an outdoor person, so I  want to take overnight hikes with my gear to high evelation sites.

The problem, as I see it, with large Dobsonians, is that they don't cure bad skies.  They also do not travel well. That is a very bad combination!  A light Dobsonian could be a nice travel companion by car. They still require cool-down and do not like hikes. 

While I am in a state of confusion, I have landed on  alternative 3, but with my current gear. 

[vlaiv]

28 minutes ago, glennbech said:

This is a very interesting thread!

I am in the same situation. I have a good quality 90mm refractor. Now I am thinking about what my next scope will be. The obvious choice would be a Dobsonian. The 10" non-goto is very reasonably priced where I live. Half the price of the 12". 

But. Then I read observation reports from people who have 10 and 12 inch scopes and bad skies, and how they see very little detail.  I suddenly think back to a ski trip in 2009 with my Megrez 90 and Porta mount in my backpack. Two of the three Leo triplet galaxies were clearly visible with direct vision, and I could  tease out the third with minimal effort. I can also travel to pretty good skies, 30 minutes by car. 

I can't decide on 

1) Brute force my mediocre skies at home with a pseudo-permanent 16".

2) 10" Dobsonian that I can travel with by car. I don't think the 12 inch is easy to travel with... 

3) Break my bank account on a larger refractor and travel to darker skies.  I am also an outdoor person, so I  want to take overnight hikes with my gear to high evelation sites.

The problem, as I see it, with large Dobsonians, is that they don't cure bad skies.  They also do not travel well. That is a very bad combination!  A light Dobsonian could be a nice travel companion by car. They still require cool-down and do not like hikes. 

While I am in a state of confusion, I have landed on  alternative 3, but with my current gear. 

Hm, I don't think the things you mentioned come easily in one package. Dob will be your best bet in bad skies. I went out the other night to observe Jupiter but seeing was so bad coupled with chimney jets from my neighbours that I sat for a while in open air contemplating light pollution. I'm in the red zone. Now I have two high power street lights without any shielding shining on my backyard. Neighbour two houses down the street installed some kind of garden lighting that is illuminating adjacent house (one in between of our two houses) more than the full moon would. Family living there is currently living abroad so they did not complain so far. I have couple of construction sites just few corners away and they have reflector type lighting going strong all night. It is true LP mess. So I sat there for a while, pulled on my hood and decided to give it a go. What a surprise. I was able to pocket 6 galaxies that evening. Three of them showing me detail that I have not seen before. M82 - I saw darker bar in center perpendicular to galaxy itself, M81 was clearly oval shaped - before that I saw only core, M51 - both cores and distinct size difference in halo around cores - earlier just cores. Two out of Leo triplet, and surfboard, by chance while scanning big dipper (I did not know what it was at the time, have not observed it previously, but due to placement next to Merak, I later found out what it was - it was the faintest of the lot). All of this with 8" dob in heavy LP (I mean really heavy ) - so don't dismiss dob for bad skies. It might surprise you.

For hiking trips maybe have a look at SC? 6" SC is both relatively small and also very light. It will happily sit on alt az lightweight mount being less then 4kg (3.7 if I'm not mistaken). It is compact and I believe it will outgun any frac in its weight category.

[scarp15]

10" to 12" dobsonian is probably a good plan. I also consider myself to be an outdoor type person and would relish the prospect of going on an over night hike with the right gear. As mentioned above I think it has to be multi faceted, perhaps binoculars for the hiking and a dobsonian for when the skies are not so bad. I have a 14" solid tube dobsonian that I can fit into my car and take to a dark site. This is something that I enjoy doing on every feasible opportunity. Those opportunities have been extremely few and far between and I haven't actually used this scope since October, as conditions for the most part have been that awful. yet there is always next weekend or next month, I stubbornly keep telling myself. If you did get favourable conditions and were able to travel to a darker location, a dobsonian is OK to use almost immediately at low power, particularly if it can cool down a little whilst in the vehicle.

[Piero]

On 02/03/2016 at 18:24, Linda said:

I really hope to see a bit more details in some grey fuzzies, as I've seen in sketches. Today I only see grey blobs, sometimes as thin as a needle. But I have for example never seen a spiral arm. I do not expect to see astro photos.

But I realize that some sketches have been made by looking through a 18" scope. That is not an option.

Quite obvious to say, but always good to remember. The best thing you can do to view DSO with ANY telescope is to reach a dark location. Aperture is the second (important) ingredient. Needless to say that: DarkLocation + Aperture => Dreaming  

An OOVX10 F4.8 has multiple optical and mechanical advantages as already mentioned. Its light weight, short-ish length (it fits in a normal car back seats) and easy set up, make this telescope an extraordinary portable weapon for DSO hunting!

[Dave In Vermont]

Teasing-out fine details on 'gray blobs' is not only a matter of throwing more aperture at the intended target. It also is of equal importance to learn how to view. This only comes from experience. And is often the reason that people will spend an entire night (weather permitting) with the same object. As the objects rise higher in the celestial-sphere of the night sky, the atmosphere the image travels through tends to become thinner and more clear. The image follows suit. As your eye(s) relax and you casually perform averted-vision (looking not directly at the object - but off to one side or another), more details tend to pop-out at you.

So taking your time and being persistent will reward you at least as much as adding inches to your aperture.

Norwegian skies must be very nice!

Dave

[pblackwell]

....I can relate to spending the whole night out....just did it!

good reply Dave

 

p

[jetstream]

Here is how I carry the VX10, tonight was great after the snow stopped, seeing was VG. The VX10 went 270x-300x on Jupiter-and sharp, the light high cloud that came in helped out. A simple ortho was used with a VIP barlow.These scopes have tough lite bases and are very portable.

[glennbech]

Another question related to the original post: how would a dobsonian react to a constant outside environment?

If you somehow get it up from the ground a bit on a platform and cover it with well?

That would help her a lot. 

I "mistreated" my heq5 pro mount like that for years, and when I sold it recently it still tracked with its usual accuracy. it was either rust or dust so to speak. After I had it permanently outside I started using a lot more. 

[jetstream]

If your mirror gets rained on no crisis IMHO,if your frac lenses gets rained on-crisis. These scopes are very tough, snow on the optics, no big deal. These ones have Al tubes that can dent, mines dented from hundreds of dark site trips, sometimes carrying it a hundred yard into quarry;s (with permission). You need to keep the mirror from dewing up in the morning, I keep mine in cold buildings that warm slowly and cover the big one with Tyvec. Fracs are much more sensitive to the cold IMHO.

[glennbech]

Quote

If your mirror gets rained on no crisis IMHO,if your frac lenses gets rained on-crisis. These scopes are very tough, snow on the optics, no big deal. These ones have Al tubes that can dent, mines dented from hundreds of dark site trips, sometimes carrying it a hundred yard into quarry;s (with permission). You need to keep the mirror from dewing up in the morning, I keep mine in cold buildings that warm slowly and cover the big one with Tyvec. Fracs are much more sensitive to the cold IMHO.

I'm thinking that a  Large, second hand Dobsonian might be a good option for Linda and that she keeps it outside, on the wooden terrace on a platform of some sort permanently  (to get it up from the ground) well covered up. In my experience, steel and Iron parts will rust a bit the mechanical parts and optics should be fine?

Another option for her might be to have a tripod and mount (SkyTee-2?) permanently set up, and a 8"Newtonian, Celestron C8 or something like that inside or in a shed. What do you think of that?  

Until recently and over many years, I have kept my tripod and HEQ5 Pro Synscan permanently outside on a wooden terrace with a BBQ cover from Weber on it. I have a shed, non-insulated, wall-to-wall with my house. I have stored both my William optics 90 frac, a 150mm Mak and an 8" Newtonian there. It is dry, but the temperature has been down to -20c  (-4f) and below. This has worked very well for me, and the mount has performed very well for Astro photography.  

[Linda]

I'm not sure about the permanent setup outside. I have moved here in autumn. The place where I observe is probably a good place to sit in the sun in summer or spring. An other places in the garden have more lights from neigboughs. It is not straightforward.

I do have an unheated shed. Maybe a cart could be an option, or carrying the mount and scope separately. And I can carry 15 kgs or so around the house.

Second hand scopes, other than the wobbly refractors and reflectors are not so easy to be found on Finn.no. But maybe something will come along. Although I might prefer a new one in good condition.

[swamp thing]

15 hours ago, glennbech said:

 

The problem, as I see it, with large Dobsonians, is that they don't cure bad skies.  They also do not travel well. That is a very bad combination!  A light Dobsonian could be a nice travel companion by car. They still require cool-down and do not like hikes.

My 20" truss Dob travels very well thank you. It's probably done more miles than 90% of the grab n go's on this forum (and shown me some pretty reasonable views to boot). Light weight normally means flimsy. I would not recommend any scope because of light weight. You can overcome weight issues. If the scope flexes about like a jelly you're knackered.

Why do you worry about this "Cool-down". You've gone to a dark sky or bought a big truss scope to observe DSO's not planets. Set up the scope and start observing immediately, you don't wait for "cool-down".  

 

 

[jetstream]

4 minutes ago, swamp thing said:

My 20" truss Dob travels very well thank you. It's probably done more miles than 90% of the grab n go's on this forum (and shown me some pretty reasonable views to boot). Light weight normally means flimsy. I would not recommend any scope because of light weight. You can overcome weight issues. If the scope flexes about like a jelly you're knackered.

Why do you worry about this "Cool-down". You've gone to a dark sky or bought a big truss scope to observe DSO's not planets. Set up the scope and start observing immediately, you don't wait for "cool-down".  

 

 

 

[jetstream]

I love my wheel barrow handles Steve!

[YKSE]

16 minutes ago, swamp thing said:

My 20" truss Dob travels very well thank you. It's probably done more miles than 90% of the grab n go's on this forum 

[Linda]

I wouldn't mind using a wheel barrow at home. But the scope should fit into a pretty full car as well, to take it along to the dark site.

[jetstream]

Linda, some of the scopes have wheel barrow handles on them, like Steves fantastic 20" truss dob and my own smaller 15". Steves built his own and is one of the finest examples of a truss dob out there, Estwing's truss is another, built by mod Moonshane.

A 12" classic  truss dob might be an excellent option for you as well.

[iPeace]

On 3/2/2016 at 19:15, Linda said:

I will definitively look at some youtube movies with poeple using them.

Sounds great in Dutch

[Linda]

I would like to let you know that the decision has been made. I have ordered a new C8 OTA. To start with, I am going to use it on my current Skywatcher EQ3 mount, which some experienced people say is doable for visual observing. 

The choice fell a on C8, because it is more transportable than an 8" Dob. And when I heard that I didn't need to invest into a new mount, it become immediately more attractive. And I could buy one with a 15% discount, which also made it attractive.

A lot has been said about C8s. There was an pre 1981 orange tube C8 from for sale here in Norway, which is supposed to have good optics, but with a stupid mount that cannot be lowered. But as it is 30-40 years old, I do not have control over what the previous owners have done with it and I am not experienced enough to test it thoroughly myself. After 1981 or thereabouts, the optics of C8 became more varying. I have understood that the latest ones are produced by Synta and are again consistently of acceptable quality. I hope this is true for the one that I ordered.

Other positive things about a C8:

- I don't need the best eyepieces

- It only weighs 6 kgs

- It fits into an already full car

- I think the collimation might be easier, adjusting the Bob's Knobs on the front instead of fiddling at the back of a Dob while looking into the eyepiece at the front

- I can sit behind the scope, in the same way as with my Mak