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Paying PayPal fees or friends and family - a cautionary tale


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Thank you for that posting. I did not know that you waive your protection from fraud in using the "Friends and Family" option. Now that I know, I will be much more cautious about  the use of that option. 

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I don't know why they call it friends and family. I don't know any family I would trust with my money...

I only buy or sell using Paypal.  It provides a record of the transaction and should make it much easier to recover any lost funds. If the seller wants it sent as a Paypal Gift, I just add 4% to the b

Happy conclusion to this tale, I have just received a full refund direct from the seller. I was lucky this time, don't let it happen to you in the future.

Avoiding paying Paypal costs for the purchase of items is actually against their rules and if you want to be a skinflint and avoid a small fee you only have yourselves to blame if things go wrong.  

I always pay the fee for added security and if I am a seller I always have a proof of posting/ "signed for" element to prove to it was received and if it is an expensive item I send it insured and signed for as I don't want to have to refund the money to the buyer if anything goes wrong in the delivery.   I keep the buyer informed as to posting and give them the bar code so they can track the item. 

You need to protect yourself as both a buyer and as a seller.  

I only pay directly into someones bank account if they are some-one I know or know them by good reputation.  

Silly to take risks for a small amount of money.

Carole 

 

Edited by carastro
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I bought a Stick Station from Per here on SGL, but directly from him. He is well respected and very helpful, without people like him we would worse off in our pursuits. I had no qualms about that purchase at all and grateful for his speedy dispatch of the item.

I am with Carole normally, I would also advise great caution.

Derek

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47 minutes ago, moriniboy said:

Happy conclusion to this tale, I have just received a full refund direct from the seller.

I was lucky this time, don't let it happen to you in the future.

Good stuff. Perhaps they were reading the thread.....

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I sold a Plossl a little while ago. I sent it untracked as it wasn't a high value item. The buyer said it hadn't arrived, and after about a week we agreed it must have been lost so I refunded the money. I felt this was the right thing to do as I had sent it untracked.

The story ended happily though, as a week or so later it turned up at the post office and the buyer then repaid me for it. I really appreciated his honesty; there are plenty of decent people out there, but it's always worth being cautious with higher value goods.

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I never got to the bottom of what really happened......

The following excuses were used, its up to you if you believe them.

The AB&S account was not theirs, even though the email address used was verified by the OP

They had never received an email from me.

Their email account had been hacked (why would someone hack an email just to answer an AB&S enquiry)

Their PayPal account had been hacked (PayPal had not been informed of this last time I emailed them)

Lots of hacking going on in their neck of the woods!

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A cautionary tale, but at least a satisfactory ending. I've bought using PayPal as a gift, but only from buy and sell ads on here. Each time I've had a great experience. I think you "buy the vendor" before buying the item. Also a testament to the honesty and calibre of people using this forum.

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On 1/29/2016 at 10:46, Stu said:

I sold a Plossl a little while ago. I sent it untracked as it wasn't a high value item. The buyer said it hadn't arrived, and after about a week we agreed it must have been lost so I refunded the money. I felt this was the right thing to do as I had sent it untracked.

The story ended happily though, as a week or so later it turned up at the post office and the buyer then repaid me for it. I really appreciated his honesty; there are plenty of decent people out there, but it's always worth being cautious with higher value goods.

I am  very pleased for you, and that there are honest people amongst us, but I have a similar story with quite the opposite ending.

I sold a Celestron eyepiece for £34 to a guy and sent it 2nd class tracked and signed for.After a week he sent me an email saying it had not turned up. I investigated and found that I  had missed a digit in the postcode. I told him this and apologized,  and following his terse reply, I offered a refund while I sorted out where it had gone, which he accepted, this being done through Paypal. Several days later I discovered that the eyepiece was marked "collected". I telephoned the Royal Mail office in Glasgow and they confirmed that it had been collected from a depot within 10 miles of where it should have gone. I asked for proof and they sent me via email a copy of the collection docket, clearly showing the signature of the person to whom I had sold the eyepiece. Upon receiving my admission of posting the incorrect post code, he had gone to the postal area of the code I had put on the parcel and signed for it.

I sent him an email and asked for the payment, he did not reply. I sent several  more emails, he did not reply.

I contacted paypal  by telephone asking for their help. Their agent sent this guy an email and he replied to them that he would check his account to see if the refund was there and if it was ,he would pay me. This was last November, and I have received nothing. Several more emails to Paypal imploring them to get my money back, since he had after all , admitted to them that he owed it to me, and he was perpetrating a fraud through their payment system, and their reply was " sorry there is nothing we can do.

A week or so ago ,this guy advertised some Astro gear on AB&S worth well in excess of £500, so I sent him yet another courteous email asking for payment, since he surely could afford it , and nothing, not a denial or anything.

 

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I've used both methods of sending payments using Paypal. If you pay for goods or services, there is no  buyer protection for the service, if not received, yet there is buyer protection for goods (missing or wrong) and Paypal will decide the outcome.

Sending money to friends or Family. Exactly, friends and Family only, folk you can trust.

I also post everything well wrapped, so when its kicked or rolled around the back of the wagon, it has some protection, and everything I send is signed for, my proof that its arrived at the said address, 

 

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I feel this thread simply shows there are good people and bad people. Which you get depends on luck or experience. Personally if I sent something that did not arrive (or they said it hadn't) I'd feel duty bound to refund and would probably not deal with them again unless I know them and felt it was genuine. If it was a valuable item I'd ensure it arrived or was at least insured. Paypal has nothing to do with it.

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2 hours ago, Moonshane said:

I feel this thread simply shows there are good people and bad people. Which you get depends on luck or experience. Personally if I sent something that did not arrive (or they said it hadn't) I'd feel duty bound to refund and would probably not deal with them again unless I know them and felt it was genuine. If it was a valuable item I'd ensure it arrived or was at least insured. Paypal has nothing to do with it.

I'd be the opposite. I would generally offer them the option of tracked or not. If they choose not to pay for tracking then I just get a certificate of postage to cover myself. If it gets lost or doesn't arrive, I will have covered myself and the buyer will be at a loss as s/he has not opted for tracking.

 

 

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On 29 January 2016 at 10:47, moriniboy said:

I never got to the bottom of what really happened......

The following excuses were used, its up to you if you believe them.

The AB&S account was not theirs, even though the email address used was verified by the OP

They had never received an email from me.

Their email account had been hacked (why would someone hack an email just to answer an AB&S enquiry)

Their PayPal account had been hacked (PayPal had not been informed of this last time I emailed them)

Lots of hacking going on in their neck of the woods!

Hi Moriniboy,

I too find this fascinating, especially since they still had the same item for sale after it "was sent " to you...... Their excuses in my view don't hold water. I am  happy that you got your money back.

This has been a really informative thread, so thanks for starting it.

Cheers

Adrian

 

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3 hours ago, hobbiesaregood said:

I'd be the opposite. I would generally offer them the option of tracked or not. If they choose not to pay for tracking then I just get a certificate of postage to cover myself. If it gets lost or doesn't arrive, I will have covered myself and the buyer will be at a loss as s/he has not opted for tracking.

 

 

The buyer is protected in a number of ways even when it comes to private sales.  The seller is obliged to get the goods to the buyer.  In a case of non-receipt of goods, I think you might be in some difficulty relying on this argument if the matter came before the Courts.  Tracking is there to protect the seller, not the buyer.   

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5 minutes ago, gnomus said:

The buyer is protected in a number of ways even when it comes to private sales.  The seller is obliged to get the goods to the buyer.  In a case of non-receipt of goods, I think you might be in some difficulty relying on this argument if the matter came before the Courts.  Tracking is there to protect the seller, not the buyer.   

If the buyer opts not to use tracking then they take the risk involved in it not arriving. If the seller has a certificate of postage, in effect proving it was posted, then he is in the clear.

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2 hours ago, hobbiesaregood said:

If the buyer opts not to use tracking then they take the risk involved in it not arriving. If the seller has a certificate of postage, in effect proving it was posted, then he is in the clear.

 

As Lumbergh sort of might say ....  

[Can anyone point me to a post telling me how to embed You Tube vids?]

Edited by gnomus
Multiple idiocy on my part trying to embed a You Tube clip!!!!
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You are actually right :

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

PayPal will pay you the full amount of an eligible (my emphasis) payment the subject of the Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no limit on the number of payments for which you can receive re-imbursement under PayPal Seller Protection.

11.6 Eligibility Requirements

What are the eligibility requirements for PayPal seller protection?

You must meet all of these requirements to be covered:

  1. The item purchased must be a physical, tangible good.
  2. The transaction must be marked by PayPal as eligible or partially eligible for PayPal seller protection on your Account “Transaction Details” page. If it is marked eligible, protection for both Unauthorised Payments and Item Not Received will apply. If it is marked partially eligible, protection for only Item Not Received will apply.
  3. Post the item to the shipping address on the “Transaction Details” page. If the item is delivered in person or if the Payment Recipient posts the item to a different address (for example, if the buyer asks that you send to another address on the basis that it is a “work address” or a “gift” address) then you will not be eligible for re-imbursement under the terms of the programme.
    1. You may access the “Transactions Details” page by logging into your PayPal Account, selecting “History” and then selecting “Details” for the transaction.
  4. Follow the postage requirements described below.
  5. You must accept a single payment from one PayPal Account for the purchase.
  6. Respond to PayPal’s requests for documentation and other information that is reasonably required by PayPal to investigate the matter in a timely manner.
  7. Your primary residence, as listed in your PayPal Account, must be in the United Kingdom and/or Ireland (however, different levels of protection apply for each region, please see section 11.2 above).
  8. Your eligibility is not otherwise suspended.

11.7 What are the postage requirements?

 

Protection for Unauthorised Payment

Protection for Item Not Received

Postage requirements

Proof of Postage (minimum) (my emphasis) or Proof of Delivery

Proof of Delivery

11.8 What is “Proof of Postage”?

Online or physical documentation from a postal company that includes all of the following:

  1. A status of “shipped” (or equivalent) and the date of postage
  2. The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).
  3. Official acceptance from the shipping company (for example, a postmark, a receipt, or online tracking information). Or, if you have Proof of Delivery then you do not need Proof of Postage.

 

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Whether or not they will honour this depending on circumstances is debatable in my opinion. You also have a variable (depending on service) recourse against the courier/Post Office.

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10 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Whether or not they will honour this depending on circumstances is debatable in my opinion. You also have a variable (depending on service) recourse against the courier/Post Office.

Generally with the PO its a case that if you've not tracked it and thereby insured it, then you're at a loss of the value of the goods.

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