Concerns over image quality

[Adamchiv]

After reading the excellent and informative post on what you can expect to see, I am concerned about being disappointed with what I will be viewing. The poster used 4" to 8" scopes as examples of what beginners will experience, and mentioned that galaxies will look like a grey smudge and jupiter will look like a creamy disc etc. I was under the impression that the 8" skyliner 200p would give some views into deep space but more importantly for me, show some colour on the andromeda galaxys, and show a pretty darn good view of jupiter. As I say its an excellent post but raises a few concerns that I will be dissapointed with this aperture, and would need to go bigger for an exciting experience. Thanks if anyone can shed some light on this particular unsurety I have and perhaps give some details of what I can expect to achieve with this scope, as I fealt sure it was meant to be a very good one.  

[Bizibilder]

Unfortunately we are all so used to seeing full colour images of Deep Sky Objects it can be a little disappointing to view them yourself and just be able to make out a faint grey "smudge".  The images you see in books and on the forum are long exposures - with the total exposure time of several hours in most cases.  Unlike our eyes a camera can "add up" the light from an object so we can collect over a long exposure and see both detail and colour.  however the very fact that you can see an object that is millions of light years away is quite awe-inspiring!  Once you have "trained" your eyes you will be able to make out details on the planets  - and the Moon of course!  Good seeing (ie a clear and steady atmosphere) also helps - something that we get all to rarely in the UK.

[Drop Of Sun]

8 inches of aperture will show a decent view of Jupiter, though the image will be fairly small in the eyepiece, don't expect an eyepiece-filling view of a massive planet! Give yourself some time for your eye to adjust, the details can come and go and your eye seems to tune in better after a while

8 inches of aperture is a pretty versatile scope. The galaxies definitely won't look like the amazing photos, sometimes it comes down to just being happy to make out a faint smudge knowing that you are looking at a galaxy with billions of stars. Amdromeda should have a nice bright core with an 8 inch scope. I can't say I notice a lot of colour when obseving.

Me personally, after several years in this hobby, a 10 inch dob is all the scope I need for a lifetime of observing. I have a 16 inch dob as well but I am always impressed by what the 10 can show, it is enough for me really, 16 spoils me.d 8 inches is very nice too and a very capable scope, it should be plenty enough for you to see how far you want to take things.

Also keep in mind your eye may get trained in time, and you may be able to see more. Try using 'averted vision' on faint targets, keep relaxed but look away from the target and look at it from the corner of your eye.

Those deep sky imaging folks have a lot to answer for!!

[Adamchiv]

3 minutes ago, Bizibilder said:

 

Hi, thanks for your response, so for example, would these images be long exposures? Would I ever get to see the colours of the andromeda galaxy in observation?

[Cornelius Varley]

Yes they all long exposure images. Unfortunately the human eye isn't sensitive enough to see the faint details and colours that the cameras can pick up. At best you will see gray smudges.

[John]

Colour in deep sky objects is very, very ellusive to visual observers. Some faint tints perhaps but thats about it.

All the images in that movie were taken with long exposures that our eyes can't compete with. Most galaxies resemble pale grey smudges of light even with quite large scopes.

The fascination comes with a little knowledge of what you are seeing rather than the pure impact of the view itself.

An 8" scope is a great instrument but even a 20" still leaves you with mostly grey patches of light, albeit brighter patches with more contrast and extension, especially if the sky is really dark.

It's best to be upfront about the realities. It's still a fascinating hobby and has kept many of us hooked for many years though

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adamchiv]

Thanks guys, at least I wont be disapointed now, to be fair, a few years ago was the first time I read about betelguese. I was fascinated with it due to its size compared to our sun (ofcourse canus majoris is the daddy). After reading about it I went outside and observed it with the naked eye, I was excited and fascinated that I was actually looking at it. Same with venus and the international space station, so I think I will be awe struck anyway, andromeda really does fascinate me. Even an image of it makes me think about all the life there is (well was then) that probably exists there. As for the ultra deep field well..........spine tingling. Thanks again

[laudropb]

Where you will see some lovely colours is in the stars themselves, especially double stars where there is a contrast in colours such as Albiero.

[Live_Steam_Mad]

I went from a 60mm refractor to a 19.5" F4.1 Dobsonian. I was expecting to be blown away by the Andromeda galaxy. Not a chance. Not here in St.Helens, Merseyside NW England with it's bright orange skies, Limiting Zenithal Magnitude of 4.5, Bortle 7. I saw about the same on M31 as I did in a friend's 8".

HOWEVER oh boy, M13 was a complete knockout, I will never forget how bright and how many stars I could see with the 19.5". It was like that "how much will your 'scope show" picture on the Obsession website, it was like a photo from a large observatory LOL and that was visual. My friend's 8" and my C11 don't come close. But the large Dob was wayyyy too big and I was too young to figure out how to use it properly and it got disused until the coatings looked like the surface of the Moon.

In 2009 I got back into Astro in a big way and used my friend's 8" ACF F10 for 3 years and had a great time. Good detail on Jupiter, but my 7" Meade Mak showed way more detail on Mars than the 8" ACF did, when I finally got a mount for my OTA's in April 2014 (CG5). My C11 puts up a view of Jupiter that beats the pair of them, salmon pink GRS and tan color belts and blue streamers. Orion Nebula shows a lot of green in these 'scopes.

My advice would be to get an 8" or 10" Dob second hand, and have a person from your local Astronomy club check the optics for Spherical Aberration, Astigmatism, etc. at high magnification (like 500x) on Polaris, preferably before buying it. That would be the most aperture for the least cost. If you want to get rid of the nudging the tube every few seconds, then you can later on get an EQ6 mount for it with computer control etc.

If you want to see what a camera on these size of 'scopes can do live, check out nightskiesnetwork.com, they will show color and detail on galaxies and nebulae in a 30 second exposure.

Maybe check out an event similar to "SideWalk Astronomy" that our local Liverpool Astronomical Society does but at your local Astro club and try out a few members' 'scopes and see what they are like before you buy.

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

[ArmyAirForce]

I think the best indication of what you'll see is to search the net for sketches that people have done on any given target. There was a member either here, or on the Telescope Addicts Facebook page, that had recently completed sketching all 110 Messier objects. Drawings from others observations is a much more realistic impression of what a visual observer will see.

[Dave In Vermont]

In defence of M31 - the Andromeda Galaxy - you should be able to see some detail in a 8" scope. Nice contrast of light & dark shades of gray to white to darker. But nothing to match the images we've all been bombarded with.

But I would encourage a new observer to try looking at a favorite object - like Andromeda - each time you manage to set up the scope. You will find that your eyes will be learning to discern more and more detail each time. This training of the eyes can also be helped by looking to one side of the object. This is called 'averted vision.' You will actually be able to see even more details when you're not looking directly at it. These are some of the tricks of the trade, so to speak.

Enjoy!

Dave

[Astro Imp]

2 hours ago, ArmyAirForce said:

I think the best indication of what you'll see is to search the net for sketches that people have done on any given target. There was a member either here, or on the Telescope Addicts Facebook page, that had recently completed sketching all 110 Messier objects. Drawings from others observations is a much more realistic impression of what a visual observer will see.

 

You're correct the member is Mike and here's a link to his wonderful set of sketches:- http://73/m.pbase.com/mikewwwessier_sketches

Sorry can't get the link to work.

[ArmyAirForce]

http://www.pbase.com/mike73/messier_sketches

[Astro Imp]

Thanks Stephen for getting me out of a hole.

[Adamchiv]

Thanks for the info guys always friendly and informative, this forum is priceless! 

[Linda]

4 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

In defence of M31 - the Andromeda Galaxy - you should be able to see some detail in a 8" scope. Nice contrast of light & dark shades of gray to white to darker. But nothing to match the images we've all been bombarded with.

I enjoined M31 best when I looked at it in my 10x50 binoculars. That was after having seen it in my telescope twice, including on a dark spot. In binoculars you can clarly see the bright core and the more grey disc around it.

[Charic]

5 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

In defence of M31 - the Andromeda Galaxy - you should be able to see some detail in a 8" scope. Nice contrast of light & dark shades of gray to white to darker.

........not from my garden, no way, just a smudge of grey from the central core, yet from a darker site, its awesome, there's structure,  and the reason I needed my first wide angle EP the 32mm Panaview.

Nothing wrong with my telescope or  any 8" reflector, they are good scopes for the money, but like ANY scope, unless your blessed with good or better conditions  at your home observatory, the conditions will always let the scope down. 

A 6" scope  in the same county/district, but with no light pollution will probably give the user a better image than I see from my garden with my 8",  but side-by-side at the darker site, no contest.

[Moonshane]

Noting the location of Greater Manchester, unless you live in the outskirts then galaxies will rarely be more than a smudge, occasionally with hints of detail but never any colour - colour is not going to show in galaxies without an extremely large telescope at dark sites, and even then.......

You may see colour in some nebulae (e.g. planetary nebulae) but rarely in anything else. Detail yes, but not colour.

Jupiter, Saturn and Mars, however will yield decent levels of colour and detail albeit through a small image - 5p at arms length - you can still see the Queen's head and the lettering?