keen beginner needing advice!

[rickoshea]

Hi all, I've been reading posts on the forum for a few weeks now, trying to devour the information and to learn at least a bit! So now it's time - I'm taking the step and getting my first (proper) telescope. This is where I'd be grateful for some advice.

Firstly ... what I'd like from the telescope. I'm living in Donegal, Ireland and am lucky to have absolutely no light pollution (no street lights in the countryside here!) When I do get a clear night it is totally clear. So those are my "viewing conditions". Probably, like most, I'd like to see some good detail from the Moon and decent views of some of the planets .... seeing nebulae, clusters etc would be great as well. My snag is (and it's a bit of a big ask) - I'd like to have some provision for terrestrial viewing as well. I'm lucky to have a house with huge windows looking over the estuary and sea so being able to have at least some option for this would be good. I have 8/40 binoculars but some serious magnification is what I'd like. I've read about heat haze etc making the image poor but I really don't (and financially can't) invest in a decent telescope plus a spotting scope. 

I've narrowed my choice (as I have about 350€ .... £250 odd) to spend to :

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/skywatcher-explorer-130p.html

and a Dobsonian :

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-150p-dobsonian.html

I'd like to be able to attach my Canon DSLR and take some pics so I believe the 130p EQ mount is more suitable for this (due to being able to track whilst exposing?) - although it can be used on the 150p from what I've read but mainly just for the Moon?.

Is there going to be a huge difference between the 130p and the 150p in image quality etc? .... I suppose I'll also have to take into account that the telescope will have to live in the living room so space may be an issue (to my wife!)

I've linked below to the accessories I think I'll need - do these seem reasonable? Any advice would be great and sorry for the rambling post!! Thanks everyone

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/diagonals/william-optics-125-90-degree-erecting-prism.html

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/celestron-eyepieces/celestron-2x-universal-125-barlow.html

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/celestron-eyepieces/celestron-omni-plossl-eyepiece.html ..... or :

 http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-eyepieces/skywatcher-sp-plossl-eyepieces.html ?

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-celestron-t-ring-for-canon-dslr-cameras/p1534225

[2STAR]

Hi, eq mounts are necessary for astrophoto taking, but are no good really for terrestrial viewing, as I discovered lol when I had my eq mount , a great starter scope for Sky & Terrestial viewing is a 102 refractor, I have the skywatcher star travel and it is a great scope, any 4" good quality refractor will be ideal for your visual. Also you may want to consider a larger dobsonian

on alt/az mount. ( although your missus may not be too happy with this )

As for astrophotography , it is a different matter altogether and needs a lot of thought and planning, I am a newcomer to Astronomy and intend to eventually get into astrophotography but with the limited viewing opportunities from the North of England I need to take every opportunity to expand my visual knowledge of the night skies first.

Good luck & clear skies

[ronin]

A dobsonian mounted scope will not do astrophotography in the great scheme of things.

As you have realised you need an equitorial mount for the iamging, the bad news is tha that the EQ-2 just is not up to it.

I do not think there is a polar scope option for it (??) so poalr aligning is somewhat of a guess, which in itself is no use for astrophotography.

Not sure if the RA motor you can get for an EQ-2 will be up to driving that scope and a DSLR with any accuracy either.

The unfortunate situation is that astrophotography takes or needs a certain minimum of equipment.

Just to throw in another spanner the 130P will need the main mirror moving upwards then recollimated in order to image - I bet the wording is that a DSLR can be attached. That is correct but the image from the main mirror and the DSLR sensor have to be coincident and they will not be. Attaching a DSLR is half of it, they don't mention the other half.

The 130 used for imaging is the 130-PDS. Guess what? It cost's more. :grin:  Bet that is not really a surprise.

You would reallistically need the EQ3-2 with motors as a minimum or better the goto version. Most, myself included, would say the EQ5 is a minimum for imaging.

The EQ3-2 allows a polar scope for alignment the motors follow and the goto has better motors and saved time.

Just in case the mount simply tracks a predetermined path it does not "follow/track" the object specifically.

Usually, except for the mount, it is better to consider visual astronomy and imaging as 2 seperate aspects with little overlap of equipment. The overlap with the mount is that you get one big enough for both imaging and visual. Imaging requiring the bigger mount.

[rickoshea]

many thanks for the reply - my missus is blissfully unaware (at the minute!) of the size of these scopes.

I actually saw another post about photography using a simple point and shoot digital through the eyepiece using this :

http://uk.telescope.com/Astrophotography/Astrophotography-Accessories/Orion-SteadyPix-Deluxe-Camera-Mount/pc/-1/c/1309/sc/1406/p/109823.uts

which seems a fairly reasonable way to go for me at least. What was the issue with the eq mount and terrestrial viewing? ..... now I'm in a quandary as I was leaning towards the 130p!

I don't think I can afford a larger Dobsonian (that'd incite divorce....) - can you table mount a 150p for terrestrial? (probably a really REALLY stupid question that!) If I can use the 150p for terrestrial (even with average image quality) I'll maybe go for that, or the Star Travel you mention ... if I can ever make a decision lol

[rickoshea]

thanks ronin .... I've been doing some more reading and come to the conclusion that astro imaging at my infant stage is probably best attempted with a wee point and shoot and using the scope eyepiece. My DSLR can stick to landscapes for the minute!

Now I just need to choose a scope .... !!

[Cornelius Varley]

Forget the diagonal. These are only used on refractors and catadioptric telescopes ie  Maksutov-Cassegrain and  Schmidt-Cassegrain types. If you try to use a diagonal with a Newtonian telescope you will not be able to reach focus.

[RichM63]

Well... Firstly your problem with any telescope 150P etc is that for terrestrial viewing the view will be inverted unless you add an erecting prism arrangement, as you have noted, or learn hand stands.   hand stands are more efficient.

I do use mine for Tall Ship sessions.

Secondly as above an EQ2 simply won't hack it.

An EQ3-2 can be used for terrestrial and or day time photography but you have to really get a feel for how the thing moves in an arc rather than up/down as a conventional photo alt/az tripod does. I do use mine as a crowd baffler on occasion during the day.

I also use it for personal satisfaction with the Camera and Lens attached just to see what I can get in the Astro field.

As Ronin notes, Visual and AP are two distinct beasts.

With your €350 I would look at your local filtered classifieds for a 200P on an EQ5, they most likely will have been looked after, and you can throw motors etc at it later. If you stay with it.

130P I would not consider at all from the first post. see 'sig'

[Ricochet]

Welcome my Irish cousin

If you want to use one scope for terrestrial and astronomical viewing then I think that you will really have to go for a refractor with an erecting prism. Reflectors aren't designed to have a diagonal in the optical train and the extra length in the optical path would probably leave you unable to bring the image into focus. If you go with an EQ mount you will have to adjust the altitude setting every time you switch between terrestrial and astronomical viewing so that you can effectively use it like an AZ mount during the day. Also EQ mounts and Newtonian reflectors aren't a great pairing for visual observations anyway so I'd avoid the 130p entirely, If it was me I would choose between the following options:

1.  Forget terrestrial use and buy a Dobsonian mounted reflector which gives you the best bang for the buck.
2.  Compromise the light gathering ability for astronomical use and buy a smaller refractor on an AZ mount that you can also use during the day.

[Alan64]

Hi Rick, and welcome,

With either the 130mm kit or the 150mm Dobsonian, you could accomplish what is known as afocal astrophotography; that is, by simply holding the camera up to the eyepiece and snapping a shot.  I do that with my 150mm f/5, and mounted on an alt-azimuth mount...

The Moon is the easiest to photograph.  The planets seem to be the most difficult, for me anyway. 

Have you seen this kit...

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-150p-eq3-2.html 

You could have a blast observing and conducting afocal astrophotography with that kit.  Later, you could motorise it, and improve your afocal technique... http://www.firstlightoptics.com/all-mounts-motors/single-axis-dc-motor-drive-for-eq3-2.html

A diagonal cannot be used with a Newtonian, in the strictest sense.  I've tried one with mine, and it will not reach focus.  Diagonals are used with refractors and Cassegrains(corrected, classical and Gregorian).

[rickoshea]

thanks so much for all the advice and welcomes ... there's me thinking I was getting the hang of this astronomy and scope thing too!

ok ... so I think I really need to separate my needs. I reckon one of these for terrestrial maybe? :

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/celestron-spotting-scopes/celestron-ultima-65-angled.html 

or this for terrestrial :

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/Celestron-AstroMaster-LT-70-AZ-Telescope.html

and maybe I could sneak one of these into the house

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-150p-dobsonian.html

I really can't stretch to the 200

[2STAR]

Rick, I have done afocal when I had my 200p DOB, it takes a lot of patience & practice to get a half decent pic when you are new to astronomy, some good advice from more experienced people than me has been given, what I will add is that astrophotography is a ' need to have this, must have that' branch of astronomy, and can be a rather big strain on the finances !!!!.

It's your money so your choice lol, but as mentioned you should really look at visual & astrophotography separately.

Regards eric

[rickoshea]

thanks Eric, I am beginning to see that it could put a bit of a dent in the finances yup! I think I'll need to concentrate on the visuals first.

Alan, I forgot to say, great photos, if I get anywhere near that I'll be a happy chappie!

[D4N]

You should note that the skywatcher Newtonian reflectors don't all reach prime focus with a DSLR attached, the ones ending in PDS do but the others may not.

I would say from experience that terrestrial viewing is horrible through a Newtonian, Maks and frac's are much better for this. If you want high magnification then a Mak is probably the way to go as long focal length frac's get a bit unwieldy.

/Dan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Putaendo Patrick]

Given the terrestrial need, I wouldn't really recommend a reflector. Just to throw another can of petrol on the fire, I'm wondering whether a Maksutov-Cassegrain might be another interesting option, perhaps with an aperture in the 102 - 127 range.

Anyone have any opinions on this one for example:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-127-supatrak.html

It's a little over budget, but does have tracking so perhaps offering some limited capabilities for photography? There are cheaper alternatives with a basic Equatorial mount - but, in that case I would probably just buy the tube and an alt-azimuth mount separately.

[Alan64]

I recommend getting just one telescope, and of lasting build-quality and satisfaction.  Why divide the current wherewithal between two telescopes?  A refractor will enable both terrestrial and astronomical observations...

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/Bresser-Messier-AR-102s-600-Hex-Focus-Optical-Tube-Assembly-4802600.html

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/SkyWatcher_AZ4_Heavy_Duty_Alt_Az_Mount___Aluminium_Tripod.html#SID=568

It comes with a 26mm(23x) ocular.  One eyepiece more to get started, along with a terrestrial diagonal...

The 8mm(75x) BST Starguider... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-25-8mm-BST-Explorer-Dual-ED-eyepiece-Branded-Starguider-/161594578166?hash=item259fc994f6:g:KdUAAOSwNSxU2Hn5

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/diagonals/skywatcher-45-erecting-prism.html

The above kit would later make for an excellent complement to a 200mm f/6 Newtonian on a Dobson-mount.

[Alan64]

The images within my last post are of my Antares 80mm f/6 achromat, along with a few afocal photographs taken therewith.

Here are a few more.  Can you spot the "Moon Monster"...

These were taken with the Antares one cloudy night, and through the 16mm Konig II...

<GASP!>

My 60mm refractor is dim.  A 70mm is not much brighter.  In my opinion, 80mm is the minimum for visual use.  A 102mm, however, is an eye-opener, albeit among refractors.

[rickoshea]

thanks again all! From what I can see the Maks may be above my price range, the Skywatcher Startravel 102 AZ3 is within my budget though. I know it's maybe best to keep all my eggs in one basket so to speak but the Skyliner Dobsonian 150p seems to get massive recommendations everywhere for astronomy and with that I could probably stretch to a "simpler" refractor (sub £100) which would do a decent job at terrestrial. I can't seem to find anything comparing the 150p imagery with other scopes though.

Alan - great images again. I found my old Canon point and shoot digital this morning which I hope will let me dabble in taking pics through the eyepiece. Not sure I see the moon monster!

[happy-kat]

Have a look at the 'what can I expect to see' thread.

You might find a skymax90 for sale for teresterial and grab and go observing.

[rickoshea]

cheers .... so much reading and learning to do lol I'll have a hunt for a Skymax90 too .....

[rickoshea]

ok fellas (and ladies!) .... I may well have come to a decision (quite possibly!)

I don't want to compromise on celestial viewing by messing about with something that will do terrestrial as well. I have a big window overlooking the estuary and the sea and (I've been shall we say "advised" by my wife) that a big mount on a dirty great tripod will NOT be sitting in front of that window. I can semi understand her reasoning there ....

So apparently a camera tripod is acceptable so I'll go for either a spotting scope - this :

http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/spotting-scope/birding-scope/helios/filedmaster/zoom/A90.html

or quite possibly this :

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-80-ota.html

this Startravel would mount onto my camera tripod for terrestrial and double as a "quick look" and travel scope for astronomy (once I get a decent tripod and mount for it in the future) One thing - it comes with an image erecting diagonal - does this correct the left to right mirroring problem?

So the biggie - which astronomy scope? With all my reading, the fact that I have some decking outside the house here (which is only just outside the living room where I'll keep the scope) and no light pollution I reckon a Dobsonian mount will give me the best value. So I'll go for the Skywatcher Skyliner 150p/1200 - I just can't stretch to the 200p (maybe some day!) I may pop in a Barlow as well (the Revelation Astro 2.5x seems to get a decent name)

Thanks so much to all the advice you've all given me, it's been invaluable to a noobie like me!

.... oh yeah, I've just downloaded Stellarium - is that the best mobile app too? (Galaxy Note 4)

cheers all )

[Parkini]

I have the Skywatcher 150p...LOVE IT!!!! I use it on my decking as well...smooth and easy to use!!! Have fun

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[happy-kat]

For me it would not be a true spotter far to limiting.

st80 for me (I have one). It will have CA on bright edges but I found when using it on birds my eye didn't see it just the camera did. Have yet to make aperature mask for it.

Errect image diagonal is right way up image what you naturally would see. A 90 degree star diagonal could be added later to improve night use.

[D4N]

Sky Safari is probably the best mobile app.

/Dan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rickoshea]

thanks Parkini .... I will!

happy-kat... you mean you'd prefer the ST80 for terrestrial rather than a spotter?

got it Dan thanks

[LukeSkywatcher]

So I'll go for the Skywatcher Skyliner 150p/1200 - I just can't stretch to the 200p 

Do it. Its all about what you can afford and enjoy. The 6" Dob up there in Donegal with next to no LP will serve you very well for yrs to come.