Hardware and software advice needed for upgrading to guided imaging

[Xiga]

There's a brilliant tutorial on LightVortexAstronomy on how to set up AstroTortilla, you should check it out.

Or alternatively, just use APT. I tried using AT but I couldn’t get it to work. So in the end I just ended up using APT which has PlateSolving built-in in the form of PointCraft. It will put you bang on target, and no need for any external programs. If you’re using APT already then i would suggest giving it a go.

[ianpwilliams]

OK, sounds like I should try to learn how to do plate solving in APT to keep the programs to a minimum.

We seem to think that the 22Ah Tracer would theoretically power the laptop for over 7 hours based on the 2A draw that my power monitor measured. Then there should be another 2 hours or so once the Tracer ran out and the laptop battery took over. So it seems like the Tracer should comfortably do the job. And it seems that this is the adaptor to buy:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Charger-Thinkpad-ORIGINAL-ELECTRONIC-EQUIPMENT/dp/B00C2CYN6G

Although these costs are adding up:

Tracer - £200

Adaptor - £30

Dehumidifier bags - £12

PixInsight - £160

And of course if my light pollution keeps my sub lengths short then it could be a other £200 or so for a LP filter.

Has anyone else had times where they've wondered if it was a good idea to carry on and to keep pumping more money into it? It seems like there's always some new piece of hardware that has to be bought, or a new piece of software to learn. The temptation to forget about deep sky and just get something like this instead is huge at times:

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-ioptron-skytracker-v2-dslr-camera-mount-with-polar-scope/p1541869?mkwid=sbn2wleth_dm&pcrid=89741427299&kword=&match=&plid=&gclid=clc6mko_yskcfyoy2wod-dymvg

[D4N]

Yeh it can be a bit disheartening at times when you are pouring money in and not seeing any returns, but then there are those wow moments as you see a 30minute sub complete and you can see great detail just from a single unprocessed exposure

/Dan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tinker1947]

Maybe you should take a step back, and just image with a mount/scope and camera, unguided, as simple a set up as you can get away........get some images....

[ianpwilliams]

I did actually get a fair few images unguided last winter, some of which I was very happy with (Pleiades, Andromeda, Bode etc), but I felt like I'd reached my limits unguided.

I'll watch some YouTube videos about CDC and PointCraft and see if I can work them out while indoors, and take it from there.

[D4N]

CDC I only have open very briefly as I already know my target.

The name search function is easiest for me, it lets you search by name or catalogue number. So if you type Rosette or NGC2237 you will end up in the same place.

It goes something like this:

Open CDC.

Type target name in the box at the top and hit enter.

Click Scope button.

Click Connect.

Click slew button.

Close CDC.

The first time you connect the scope you will need to tell it what driver to use.

I use Sky Safari Pro to plan my targets.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

Thanks, I'll give that a try indoors tomorrow. Hopefully APT plate solving too.

[Xiga]

Here's a thread i started recently about PlateSolving, which you might find useful:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/252469-astrotortilla-cant-access-apt-any-ideas/page-2

Once you get your first guided image under your belt you won't know yourself! I'm also only a beginner in all this too, and have only completed one guided image myself (shamelessly attached below   ), but it shows you what only 27 mins of data can achieve:

[ianpwilliams]

Thanks, I'll give that a look. And yes, that is an amazing image, my unguided version doesn't even compare. It's the kind of thing I'd love to capture if I can.

[ianpwilliams]

Could someone please provide a download link for Carte du Ciel? I keep ending up here, which seems tob e for drawing star charts:

https://www.ap-i.net/skychart/en/start

Also, the APT online user guide:

http://www.ideiki.com/astro/userguide.aspx#_Toc419916598

is telling me that I need to download Plate Solve 2 and UCAC3 catalogue from here:

http://planewave.com/downloads/software/

Am I on the right lines with this?

[D4N]

Could someone please provide a download link for Carte du Ciel? I keep ending up here, which seems tob e for drawing star charts:

https://www.ap-i.net/skychart/en/start

Yeh that is the right software, whilst it can be used for making star charts it also works very well for pointing a telescope even on old laptops that don't have enough power to run nice graphics.

/Dan

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[Thalestris24]

I think this is the download page though I've never  downloaded or used it myself...

Louise

[ianpwilliams]

Yes it looks like CDC is a bit easy on the eye, but as long as it's less power-hungry then that's what matters. Just downloading the huge UCAC3PS catalogue for Plate Solve 2 now...

So is it generally agreed that PixInsight is the way to go for processing (along with DeepSkyStacker for stacking)? That's what I use for my unguided images (using the trial version), and I seemed to get good results. Although having said that I tended to follow the same process every time just because the amount of processes available in PI is mind blowing. I also have Gimpshop, but I can't afford to be buying Photoshop.

[D4N]

You may as well stack in PI if you are gong to process on it.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

Here's a thread i started recently about PlateSolving, which you might find useful:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/252469-astrotortilla-cant-access-apt-any-ideas/page-2

Once you get your first guided image under your belt you won't know yourself! I'm also only a beginner in all this too, and have only completed one guided image myself (shamelessly attached below   ), but it shows you what only 27 mins of data can achieve:

M31 v2.6.jpg

I just read through your thread, very useful! I was wondering how I find out what I actually need to do, and this seems to cover that. In the meantime I've installed PointCraft, and the UCAC catalogue, and PointCraft seems to recognise the catalogue, and APT seems to recognise PointCraft. I hope anyway!

However, looking at your thread, it seems like you can actually use APT to GOTO your target, is that right? so there's no actual need to use either of Stellarium or CdC? Because that would be great to be honest. It would be great to be able to just use APT, EQMOD, and PHD2. And so actually APT would be doing most of the tasks i.e. slewing to target, centering the target by plate solving using PointCraft, providing a Live View image for focussing with the Bhatinov Mask, and capturing the actual subs too. Pretty amazing piece of software really! I'll certainly be paying the small fee for it once I get a good session done.

I'm also trying to think about the order in which I would do things. My preferred way would be:

Polar align (PolarFinder App)

Slew to a star near the target (APT)

Focus on the target (Bhatinov Mask and APT)

Slew to target (APT)

Centre target (APT)

Calibrate and then start guiding (PHD2)

Start imaging (APT)

Does that sound about right?

[ianpwilliams]

I'm going to try to use APT for GoTo, plate solving with FocusPoint, focussing with the Bahtinov Aid, and subs and flats too. So basically everything except guiding.

But I could really do with practising indoors first, and so I'm wondering if it's possible to simulate the night skies with EQMOD and APT. Is that possible?

[D4N]

Not sure how it works with APT but I know astrotortilla lets you use a simulated mount and you can use a file open dialogue to solve an image you have captured on a previous occasion.

Getting the plate solving to work can be tricky.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

I'll have to look into simulating, hopefully I can sort something.

The guy on that other thread made out that it was quite straightforward:

"So in APT i went to Pointcraft and in the Centre FOV section i simply clicked on Objects and selected M31 from the list (as it was just visible from my location) and hit the GoTo++ button and off it went to do it's thing. Sure enough it got pretty close first time, took a picture, which it solved in about 40 seconds, then did another small slew followed by a second picture, which again solved in 40 seconds, and then it told me Success and sure enough, there was M31 smack bang right in the middle of the frame!"

[ianpwilliams]

This is the product that Louise linked to for connecting the Tracer to the laptop:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Charger-Thinkpad-ORIGINAL-ELECTRONIC-EQUIPMENT/dp/B00C2CYN6G

Does this one look the same to you?

http://www.rakuten.co.uk/shop/smartparts/product/pc-i9c-skw-006/?pup_e=3747&pup_id=pc-i9c-skw-006&sclid=a_pla_uk_computing&_$ja=tsid:66178%7Ccid:303115507%7Cagid:18525691627%7Ctid:pla-105220588147%7Ccrid:85263240427%7Cnw:g%7Crnd:5603714476963979220%7Cdvc:m%7Cadp:1o1&gclid=CNCVu-CN0ckCFQ_gGwodtrMO4Q

[Davesellars]

Yeah, you can use APT for Goto.  Just choose "Objects", select one from the lists and the equatorial coordinates will be updated.  Hit Goto and you're done.  However, the list is a little bit limited but great for starting.  I use Cdc as well as APT as APT doesn't have some of the NGC and IC catalogue.

Pointcraft integrated with APT is brilliant.  It, just works every time.  Apparetly the new version 3 will do blind solving so you don't even need to tell it the rough area of the sky the scope is pointing at

Once your camera is focused once, i'd suggest marking the position of the focuser so when you set up again it is pretty close and you only need to fine tune with the help of a Bahtinov.

I have a permanent setup but this only cuts down on the polar alignment otherwise exactly the same steps...

1.  APT - connect to mount and camera (does this automatically)

2.  Slew to a position where i'm going to do my PHD calibration (if necessary)

3.  In APT open the platesolving, use current scope coords and hit "Auto" .  My focus may not be dead on but it will be good enough to solve.

4.  Now the mount position coords are correct  open PHD connect to mound and camera and if necessary start the calibration process -You can disconnect the DSLR from APT and switch off to save its battery during this step as it can take about 10 mins.

5.  Once calibrated in PHD if I'm feeling flush with time I'll also go to the Guiding Assistant and run that which will help you to make any adjustments dependent on the seeing conditions - it will also tell you if your polar alignment is off.  If your polar alignment is not good then run the Drift Align assistant.  Really, if you've got your HEQ5 leveled you should be only concerned with azimuth adjustment.

6.  Right, done with PHD (it's a pain and seems like a waste of perfectly good imaging time but don't skip it otherwise your entire session can go to pot.), stop it from guiding and go back to APT and switch back on the camera and connect.

7.  Slew to a decent (mag 3 ish star) close to the object you want to image.

8.  Focus with the bahtinov mask - Personally, I do not use Liveview any more for two reasons - it heats up your sensor VERY quickly & is not reliable because of seeing conditions/can be difficult to really see if the focus is on or not.  Take 5 seconds shots for example, zoom in and using the Bahtinov Tool centered on the star you will be able to see MUCH more clearly if the focus is not correct.  Really, this won't take long at all to get right... Do not skip this step.  There is a good reason for focusing close to your imaging target and conditions and position of sky will change your focus.

9.  Slew to the target. Here, I use APT (pointcraft) platsolving, I think it is called Goto++ , this will take an image centre, image again and centre until it is within acceptable pixels of the centre.    This is an important step if you want to image the same object over multiple sessions I think...

10.  Start imaging!

[Xiga]

Yeah, you can use APT for Goto.  Just choose "Objects", select one from the lists and the equatorial coordinates will be updated.  Hit Goto and you're done.  However, the list is a little bit limited but great for starting.  I use Cdc as well as APT as APT doesn't have some of the NGC and IC catalogue.

Pointcraft integrated with APT is brilliant.  It, just works every time.  Apparetly the new version 3 will do blind solving so you don't even need to tell it the rough area of the sky the scope is pointing at

Once your camera is focused once, i'd suggest marking the position of the focuser so when you set up again it is pretty close and you only need to fine tune with the help of a Bahtinov.

I have a permanent setup but this only cuts down on the polar alignment otherwise exactly the same steps...

1.  APT - connect to mount and camera (does this automatically)

2.  Slew to a position where i'm going to do my PHD calibration (if necessary)

3.  In APT open the platesolving, use current scope coords and hit "Auto" .  My focus may not be dead on but it will be good enough to solve.

4.  Now the mount position coords are correct  open PHD connect to mound and camera and if necessary start the calibration process -You can disconnect the DSLR from APT and switch off to save its battery during this step as it can take about 10 mins.

5.  Once calibrated in PHD if I'm feeling flush with time I'll also go to the Guiding Assistant and run that which will help you to make any adjustments dependent on the seeing conditions - it will also tell you if your polar alignment is off.  If your polar alignment is not good then run the Drift Align assistant.  Really, if you've got your HEQ5 leveled you should be only concerned with azimuth adjustment.

6.  Right, done with PHD (it's a pain and seems like a waste of perfectly good imaging time but don't skip it otherwise your entire session can go to pot.), stop it from guiding and go back to APT and switch back on the camera and connect.

7.  Slew to a decent (mag 3 ish star) close to the object you want to image.

8.  Focus with the bahtinov mask - Personally, I do not use Liveview any more for two reasons - it heats up your sensor VERY quickly & is not reliable because of seeing conditions/can be difficult to really see if the focus is on or not.  Take 5 seconds shots for example, zoom in and using the Bahtinov Tool centered on the star you will be able to see MUCH more clearly if the focus is not correct.  Really, this won't take long at all to get right... Do not skip this step.  There is a good reason for focusing close to your imaging target and conditions and position of sky will change your focus.

9.  Slew to the target. Here, I use APT (pointcraft) platsolving, I think it is called Goto++ , this will take an image centre, image again and centre until it is within acceptable pixels of the centre.    This is an important step if you want to image the same object over multiple sessions I think...

10.  Start imaging!

Hi mate

Can you explain a bit more about your focusing routine? I've just recently taken delivery of a Bahtinov mask, and have only tried using it once, and found it very difficult to use. Basically, i slewed to Mirach (which should be bright enough) and used the LiveView mode in APT (DSLR screen was off). With the mask on, the image was small and not overly bright, but i could make out the diagonal lines, as i have a spot marked on my focuser to get me close to focus from the get-go. I used APT's x10 zoom, which did help some, but it was still really quite small. I then tried using a program called Bahtinov Grabber, but it absolutely would not work for me, the lines were moving all over the place. If i minimised the APT screen all i was left with was the really small screen with the star and diagonal lines showing, which Bahtinov Grabber did not like at all, so in the end i had to give up on it. I think the image it was trying to analyse was either to small, or the seeing was just too bad.

So in the end i just eyeballed it in APT's LiveView, watching the line move back and forth, trying to intersect in the middle, but the problem was, the level of visual feedback was really quite poor, i.e i could move the focuser quite a bit but have difficulty telling if it was any better, or worse, or just the same.

So are you saying that it is much easier to not bother with APT's LiveView (and Focus Aid ability, which i am yet to try) at all, and just take a series of short exposures and analysing them by eye on the laptop screen in APT using the x10 zoom? If so, I can see how this would yield sharper images to help really dial in the accuracy, but at the expense of having to do what is essentially Trial & Error.

Or is there an easier way?

[Davesellars]

Xiga,

As I mentioned, I do not use Liveview for the very reason you just mentioned.  The only reason I'd use LV would be if the focus really way out of whack and I wanted to move it quickly to the approximate position.

It is far easier to take images of 5 seconds (at 800 ISO is quite enough) for a mag 3 (ish) star.

1. Slew to star and make sure it's pretty central.  I would NOT recommend using a star that is too bright as it will get blown out too quickly. Somewhere around mag 3 or 4 is OK.

2. Pop on the Bahtinov mask

3. Take 5 second image.  If the star is fainter just bump up the ISO to 1600.  The length of time is also generally sufficient to avoid bad focus through changing seeing conditions.

4. Zoom 5x then to 10x

5. Open up the Bahtinov Tool and place the square above the star with the cross at the centre of the star.  hit re-calc.

6. You'll be able to see visually anyway if you are out but look a the number given + it tells you if you are close etc.

7.  Adjust the focus where necessary and re-take image.  Since the star will be in the same position (hopefully if you're polar aligned and tracking well etc!), you don't need to do anything else apart from re-calc on the Bahtinov tool.

8.  Fast scope = naff all margin of error.

9.  Repeat this procedure after every major movement to different area of the sky for a new target.

BTW, I'm pretty much using the same equipment as you.   I have the Bahtinov masks bought from FLO for my 80ED and 120ED.

Yeah, it's a little bit of trial and error but it does not take many iterations to get it absolutely dead on and you will have a sure focus after this procedure - using LV, you will not.

[ianpwilliams]

I was going to ask about Live View actually. Reading the APT online user guide it talks about Live View, and Mirror Lockup. It says that you can only take a shot using the "Shoot" button when in Live View mode. So if you're saying to not use Live View at all (and I'm fine with that), then does that mean that I will never use the "Shoot" button, and therefore there would be no point in changing the parameters at the bottom-right because they relate to "Shoot" only, and I would instead be creating Plans and running them?

And what should I do about the Mirror Lockup thing?

Also I'm not sure about the anti-vibration pause. How long should I make that in my Plan?

[ianpwilliams]

Yeah, you can use APT for Goto.  Just choose "Objects", select one from the lists and the equatorial coordinates will be updated.  Hit Goto and you're done.  However, the list is a little bit limited but great for starting.  I use Cdc as well as APT as APT doesn't have some of the NGC and IC catalogue.

Pointcraft integrated with APT is brilliant.  It, just works every time.  Apparetly the new version 3 will do blind solving so you don't even need to tell it the rough area of the sky the scope is pointing at

Once your camera is focused once, i'd suggest marking the position of the focuser so when you set up again it is pretty close and you only need to fine tune with the help of a Bahtinov.

I have a permanent setup but this only cuts down on the polar alignment otherwise exactly the same steps...

1.  APT - connect to mount and camera (does this automatically)

2.  Slew to a position where i'm going to do my PHD calibration (if necessary)

3.  In APT open the platesolving, use current scope coords and hit "Auto" .  My focus may not be dead on but it will be good enough to solve.

4.  Now the mount position coords are correct  open PHD connect to mound and camera and if necessary start the calibration process -You can disconnect the DSLR from APT and switch off to save its battery during this step as it can take about 10 mins.

5.  Once calibrated in PHD if I'm feeling flush with time I'll also go to the Guiding Assistant and run that which will help you to make any adjustments dependent on the seeing conditions - it will also tell you if your polar alignment is off.  If your polar alignment is not good then run the Drift Align assistant.  Really, if you've got your HEQ5 leveled you should be only concerned with azimuth adjustment.

6.  Right, done with PHD (it's a pain and seems like a waste of perfectly good imaging time but don't skip it otherwise your entire session can go to pot.), stop it from guiding and go back to APT and switch back on the camera and connect.

7.  Slew to a decent (mag 3 ish star) close to the object you want to image.

8.  Focus with the bahtinov mask - Personally, I do not use Liveview any more for two reasons - it heats up your sensor VERY quickly & is not reliable because of seeing conditions/can be difficult to really see if the focus is on or not.  Take 5 seconds shots for example, zoom in and using the Bahtinov Tool centered on the star you will be able to see MUCH more clearly if the focus is not correct.  Really, this won't take long at all to get right... Do not skip this step.  There is a good reason for focusing close to your imaging target and conditions and position of sky will change your focus.

9.  Slew to the target. Here, I use APT (pointcraft) platsolving, I think it is called Goto++ , this will take an image centre, image again and centre until it is within acceptable pixels of the centre.    This is an important step if you want to image the same object over multiple sessions I think...

10.  Start imaging!

Also, what is step 3 here? I thought you were plate solving at step 9, so I'm not sure what step 3 is doing.

[Davesellars]

I don't use the mirror lock up.. . It's not necessary. I believe it's more useful for very short exposures? Running LV before shooting can cause amp glow. As an experiment on a cloudy day take a shot which will show the starting sensor temp then run LV for a minute for instance the time it may take you if you're quick to focus for example then take another shot and look how much the sensor temp has shot up.

I do use the shoot button to take an individual shot normally, quickly checking it before setting a plan and running it. Better to catch an issue early than after 1 hour running an entire plan for example.