AstroBuySell is getting silly...

[wuthton]

I've had several offers that have made me laugh but I've never been offended.

Some people do get a little cheeky. I was witness to this conversation in our builders merchants.

Customer:"how much are these disks to me?"

Merchant:"£1.45 but I can do two for £2.90"

Customer:"ahh, I'll take two then"

[Scott]

The worth of something is exactly the amount that someone is prepared to offer for it. 

This is only half true. It is also what the seller is prepared to let it go for.

If I don't get what I want for any given article, then I don't sell because thats what it's worth to me .

 this being the case, It's fair to say that most things have two values

[Zakalwe]

This is only half true. It is also what the seller is prepared to let it go for.

If I don't get what I want for any given article, then I don't sell because thats what it's worth to me .

Then you have over-valued it.

A neighbour of mine has been trying to sell his house for over 8 years. He reckons it's worth £XX because that's what he paid for it. The market says otherwise, and loads of houses have sold on our close- except for his. Is his valuation correct? Nope.

[Scott]

Then you have over-valued it.

A neighbour of mine has been trying to sell his house for over 8 years. He reckons it's worth £XX because that's what he paid for it. The market says otherwise, and loads of houses have sold on our close- except for his. Is his valuation correct? Nope.

why? if the true worth  is what someone is willing to pay, it stands to reason it's also worth what one is not willing to part with it for. If something is advertised and no-one wants it, does this mean its over priced? No. it could mean that no-one wants it at that particular time.

The market can not and will not dictate to me what I think something is worth.

I hardly think comparing a house to, say an eyepiece is fair...people don't put a house in the drawer because they don't get what they want. There's a huge difference between selling something that is surplus to requirements and a necessary sale to move on.

[Astro_Baby]

I'm with auspom on this - normally I sell at what I will be willing to part with the item for.  For big stuff like a house, a car etc then yes market valuation is important but it can never be the sole consideration.  When I tried to sell a Shelby Mustang in 1977 it was tough to sell at any price.  I bet if I put it on the market now for its original three grand asking price I don't suppose I would have to wait long to shift it

On eyepieces and such like I am seldom in a hurry to shift stuff.  I still have some Baader GOs.  I don't use them but I wont sell at what the market considers fair because I'd rather just keep them than sell for what the market will pay ditto my Unitrons - I never use them but like having them and wont sell at what would be fair to a buyer so I don't offer them up. If someone wanted to offer insane money for them then yes I would let them go (maybe).

A good deal has to be good for everyone but critically for the seller or else theres no incentive to sell.

[Zakalwe]

It depends on what you mean by "value". Without getting all "Zen and The Art of Motorcycles" about it, I am defining value as the amount of money that an item will attract on an open market.  Defined as that then the market absolutely does say what it's worth, especially for mass-produced items.  You may value it higher for a number of reasons (sentimental, for example), but if it doesn't sell, then it's overvalued.  Perhaps "price" would be a better term to use?

My neighbour has done the equivalent of putting the eyepiece back in the drawer as he has never accepted fair market offers. He does not accept that the price of his house varies with the market, or claims to understand why anyone in their right mind would buy a similar house on the same street for a lot less than he is asking (nuts, I know!). In his mind, his house is worth £XXK. However, the market has decided otherwise and he is stuck in a house that he won't sell, which means he cannot retire to the house he wants in Spain.  nowt as queer as folk, as they say round these parts.

No. it could mean that no-one wants it at that particular time.

That's a good point, and a fair one if the item is rare or esoteric. If it's a run-of-the-mill item, and others are selling at a lower price, then it's over-valued. Hence, it's the market that sets the value.

Strictly speaking, price is defined as having three components:

1. What someone is prepared to pay,
2. What someone is prepared to accept,
3. What the regulatory environment allows (Competition Law, for example).

Point 3 doesn't relate to 2nd hand items, and point 2 is covered above.

[Stub Mandrel]

I have tatty old books that mean far more to me than modern one, not because they have antique value, but because of the associations. I get pleasure from things like reading the Gulliver's Travels a relative received as a Sunday School prize a century and a half ago (and wryly reflecting that the Church Elders had probably never read it.'. or at least understood all the details!) Who is likely to offer me what it is 'worth' to me?

I don't want to be "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" - Oscar Wilde.

[DRT]

I think Zakalwe is correct here, we are confusing value with price. The price that the market is willing to pay should be the price of the item if the seller really wants or needs to sell. Trying to value it higher does not achieve the objective of selling.

If you own something that you assign an arbitrary value to, be that financial, sentimental  or "just because I like having it", that is not something that can be compared to a market price. It is the value to you as an individual.

Something to bear in mind when it comes to astro kit is an item's ability to hold its value in real terms. This also applies to Astro_Baby's car. Putting something in a drawer in 2015 because you can't sell it for £120 and then selling it for £120 in 2025 is not winning. The thing you wanted to buy in 2015 is no longer going to cost you £120, it's going to cost you £240.

If you are selling kit because you don't need it and the money isn't required for another purpose then holding out for a higher price makes sense. But if you want to sell you Celestron Luminos to put towards an Ethos get rid for whatever price the market will stand

[m1dlj]

Interesting stuff, I look at it like this:

I have a piece of astro kit I value at £100, advertise it on this forum, get and offer of £95. Should I accept? Well yes.

However, what if I take the same item to some local backstreet non-specialist auction, where I get one bid of £10, should I accept? No. I would be wise to put a reserve price on it, and realise I'm in the wrong market at the wrong time.

My point is: Yes, it is markets that set the value/price, but markets are poorly defined things that vary greatly, for all sorts of reasons. You may be in the right market, but at slightly the wrong time. If a particular market is not offering what you the vendor are prepared to accept, and you think you could do better, then you don't have to sell.

Ray

[DRT]

I agree with all of that, Ray, but the buyer surely has a responsibility to select his market appropriately if he expects a fair price?

You wouldn't try to sell a herd of sheep on ABS UK, so why take a telescope to a back-street auction?

Posting astro kit on here, ABS or places like them (even Ebay!) will reach a wide audience in the astro market. That market will dictate the high and low price that will be paid. If you price it too high you will drop off the first page very quickly without being sold.

This really is just basic supply and demand for items that a seller wants to sell.

[John]

I've bought and sold loads of things on Astro Buy & Sell over the years.

As a seller, I tend to take the view that the market place will sort out whether I've got the price about right. If I don't get any interest then it's either priced too high or the item is rather specialised and the number of potential buyers is limited. I can then either withdraw the item or reduce the price. I do research the price that similar items have recently sold for before advertising. If it's clear that there is currently little or no market for something I'll stick it back in the astro cupboard for another time.

I don't mind receiving an offer - even if I don't want to accept it I get back to the person and thank them for their interest. Sometimes this results in a better offer !

I've had a few really low ball offers and again just politely declined them.

As a buyer, if I'm interested in buying something but the price is well above what I'm prepared to pay then I don't approach the seller with a really low offer but I wait until either a less expensive one comes along or the original seller reduces the price. If I really want something, if it's seldom on sale or if it's a particularly nice example I might pay a little more for it.

These are quite simple processes as I see it. Nothing to get too emotional about

[DRT]

I've bought and sold loads of things on Astro Buy & Sell over the years.

To the best of my knowledge you have never bought anything from me, John - perhaps I need to review my pricing strategy?

[astronymonkey]

Ive had generally good experiences of ABS having bought 2 scopes and an eyepiece over the years and in all cases ive discussed via email and agreed on a price.

Sadly my only bad experience was with an astronomical society that was selling a scope and I got completely messed which was both suprising and very disappointing !!!!

[Scott]

I think Zakalwe is correct here, we are confusing value with price. 

No confusion at all . Stephen stated that the buyer dictates the WORTH of an item. I disagree and said that I will not be told what an item is worth.

Its simple. If I'm selling an item for £100 and get an offer of £80 I have two options I have an item or I have £80. If I decide to keep it then it's worth more than £80 to me because I refused it

Call it what you want, worth/value/cost/price. it doesn't change a thing

[Star Struck]

To quote the well known Chester L Karrass:

"In Business As in Life, You Don't Get What You Deserve, You Get What You Negotiate"

It is the title of a book I bought many years ago.

Same applies to buying astro gear.

[DRT]

No confusion at all . Stephen stated that the buyer dictates the WORTH of an item. I disagree and said that I will not be told what an item is worth.

Its simple. If I'm selling an item for £100 and get an offer of £80 I have two options I have an item or I have £80. If I decide to keep it then it's worth more than £80 to me because I refused it

Call it what you want, worth/value/cost/price. it doesn't change a thing

Let me try again, Scott, as I don't actually think we are disagreeing here.

If we assume that in your example no one else comes back to offer more than £80 then the value of that item to the market is a maximum of £80. That in no way changes the fact that its value to you remains £100. So each item has two values, one to the person who owns it, and a second to those who might buy it. If those two values turn out to be identical or very close together the item will sell. If there is a material gap between the two values it probably won't.

So what this actually comes down to is how keen the seller is to sell. If very keen, don't stick to your own valuation, accept that of the market and you will sell it. If you are happy not to sell below your own valuation then stick to your guns and keep it. That is the point I have been trying to make.

[Scott]

Let me try again, Scott, as I don't actually think we are disagreeing here.

If we assume that in your example no one else comes back to offer more than £80 then the value of that item to the market is a maximum of £80. That in no way changes the fact that its value to you remains £100. So each item has two values, one to the person who owns it, and a second to those who might buy it. If those two values turn out to be identical or very close together the item will sell. If there is a material gap between the two values it probably won't.

So what this actually comes down to is how keen the seller is to sell. If very keen, don't stick to your own valuation, accept that of the market and you will sell it. If you are happy not to sell below your own valuation then stick to your guns and keep it. That is the point I have been trying to make.

This is why my origional post said this is only half true

This is only half true. It is also what the seller is prepared to let it go for.

If I don't get what I want for any given article, then I don't sell because thats what it's worth to me .

 this being the case, It's fair to say that most things have two values

To be honest, I'm not trying to disagree or be difficult. At the end of the day, we've all got to buy/sell how we see fit . As long as we are straight up with details, thats the thing that counts 

[ChrisLX200]

Stuff like this has no intrinsic value - like a bar of gold or non-negotiable bonds - it is entirely market driven. Something that is rare and desirable will have a value above market price - perhaps even higher than what the item sold for when new. Some things (like antiques) have zero utility but may be collectable and of very limited availability, thus wholly dependant on market value (a brass Cooke refractor perhaps). AP refractors (not antiques!) hold their price because you cannot just buy them on demand yet they are desirable to own with many prospective buyers. An HEQ5 on the other hand is as common as (...) and thus the price is an average price that they tend to sell for on open market, if one is over-priced just move on to the next. It doesn't matter how much _you_ paid for it - you may have paid over the odds and are attempting to recover your outlay, thus you value it higher than average market price. There may be mitigating factors that affect the price a little - something in perfect condition or even entirely unused, is it fair to have to drop the asking price to the same as the average well-used example? I don't think so.

ChrisH

[John]

Anyone remember what happened when the announcement that the Baader Genuine Orthoscopics had ceased production came through ?. Almost overnight their used prices almost doubled and they were changing hands for more than their new price had quite recently been. A couple of months later the same or very similar design eyepieces became available, 1st with the Astro Hutech branding on them and a little later a version branded Fujiyama. Barring some small physical differences, these were identical in performance to the Baader GO's. The used price of Baader GO's dropped month by month back to the level it had been at before - about 65% of the new price, which seems to be around the norm for most used astro kit.

It was an odd few months for ortho pricing !

[mcolbert]

and the 'market' is in constant flux.  It comes down to whether we as either sellers or buyers catch the ebb tide or the flood.  For professionals I suppose that is the 'trick'.

michael