Overheating Canon 500D

[Pompey Monkey]

So I bought a second had 500D and removed the IR filter using the excellent instructions from Gary Honis (Thanks Gary!). After an initial hiccup, where I'd not reconnected one of the cables, it seems to work ok, although I'm still waiting for a clear night to try it out in anger.

However, when I give it a soak test of repeated 300 second exposures using APT, it dies and loses connection to the PC after a while. This seems to be related to the temperature of the sensor, which is reported in the filename by APT. It is all ok until the sensor reaches about 37-39^o C, upon which the camera dies until it cools down. I have repeated this on three separate tests, so this is a consistent effect.

Is this normal?

[beamer3.6m]

Repeated 5 min exposures will cause heat build up.

You should be allowing the camera to rest between frames. Perhaps 10 seconds.

How many subs do you get before it overheats?

[Pompey Monkey]

Repeated 5 min exposures will cause heat build up.

You should be allowing the camera to rest between frames. Perhaps 10 seconds.

How many subs do you get before it overheats?

As many as it takes to get the temperature up to 39^o C!

To get adequate cooling I need to leave it minutes, rather than seconds, between frames. Thenoise in the image is more noticable as the temperature rises too.

I've done some more reading and it seems that the 500D is rather noisy... ;( Should've gone for the 450D or 550D it seems. I think I'll need darks as well as dithering to keep the noise down.

[Thalestris24]

Hi

If you are powering it from an internal battery, I believe that results in increased temperatures.

Louise

[Davey-T]

5 min seems a bit excessive, don't think I've ever gone over 3 mins with mine.

Dave

[Pompey Monkey]

Hi

If you are powering it from an internal battery, I believe that results in increased temperatures.

Louise

I have the mains adapter

5 min seems a bit excessive, don't think I've ever gone over 3 mins with mine.

Dave

The Astronomik CLS light pollution filter is great. I can easily do 5 minutes from my mag 4-4.5 skies and have done 10 minute subs from better skies with my unmodded 600D.

[Ruud]

The camera should shut down when it gets too hot, that is normal, but not at 39 degrees!

Here is someone measuring temps up to 80° on working Canon cameras.

[almcl]

On my Canon 700d Exiflog has reported temps up to 45°C and the camera keeps running. I have found that a during series of several minute long exposures the sensor cools down rather than heats up.

I think Louise (Thalestris24) pointed out elsewhere that Live view heats up the sensor rather rapidly.

Finally, the temp reported in the exif data is somewhat at variance with that which I've measured with an IR remote sensing thermometer, often by 10 or 12°C.

[Pompey Monkey]

I think then that I've probably damaged something inside.

I think I'll continue to use my new (and unmodded) 600D and start saving up for a proper CCD rather than splashing out on another s/h DSLR to mangle!

[Thalestris24]

On my Canon 700d Exiflog has reported temps up to 45°C and the camera keeps running. I have found that a during series of several minute long exposures the sensor cools down rather than heats up.

I think Louise (Thalestris24) pointed out elsewhere that Live view heats up the sensor rather rapidly.

Finally, the temp reported in the exif data is somewhat at variance with that which I've measured with an IR remote sensing thermometer, often by 10 or 12°C.

Yeah, though things are a bit more complicated for me as I'm indoors so start off at an ambient of ~20 deg (or whatever room temp happens to be at the time! As I understand it, and as you say, the exif temp is only a rough guide... The temps I get displayed by APT are generally in the range of 22-29 deg. Sometimes a bit higher... Some 480s subs I took the other night came out with a temp of 28-29deg in their filename. Some 60s subs I'd taken earlier came out at 26deg. So not a huge difference. Liveview is definitely bad for raising the temp and can take quite a while to cool down after (with an 1100d and mains adapter).

Louise

[ronin]

Lets face it, it is a DSLR, it was intended to take exposures of 1/250 second and then take another half a second later.

It was not really meant to take a series of 600 second exposure. You have not modified it for astrophotography, you have just changed a filter so that a slightly different wavelength or two gets passed through, that does not make it an astrophotography camera.

The astrophotography ccd's are cooled, usually around -30c below ambient. Now they are designed for long exposure astrophotography.

It also sounds that you are not allowing any real cool down. I believe the general guide is 1:1, as in take a 60 seconds exposure then allow the camera to cool for 60 seconds. The exposure may also include a NR exposure which being the same duration as the exposure means you have in effect an exposure of 2x whatever you set, so the cool down is then 2x whatever you set.

[Magnus_e]

Not sure what you can have don while modding it that will cause it to overheat?

As there is no cooling to damage...

I have also modded my 550d with the instructions of Gary Honis,

Last night i took 16 600s subs with no time to cool in between subs, other than the dithering. My last sub was at 29 deg.

Did it work before you modded it? Did you do a similar test whit multiple long exposures.

Perhaps a last check to see if all wires are connected?

[Psychobilly]

I have quite happily taken series 1800s exposures with a DSLR when using it for Ha or just for the hell of it...

The fact your modified 500D is shutting down with a sensor temp of 39C would lead me to believe that there is something else not quite right in there... I know I have seen temps higher than this in the EXIF data when I have been torture testing some of my cams without them shutting down...

Peter...

[StuartJPP]

As mentioned get a dummy battery or external supply and try that...it should keep the heat down a bit but 39C isn't very hot at all.

You could try taking it apart and re-seating everything again, no loss if it doesn't work.

As a matter of interest did you try taking similar subs before modding the camera?

[Pompey Monkey]

As mentioned get a dummy battery or external supply and try that...it should keep the heat down a bit but 39C isn't very hot at all.

You could try taking it apart and re-seating everything again, no loss if it doesn't work.

As a matter of interest did you try taking similar subs before modding the camera?

Already using the dummy battery but didn't try taking a lot of subs before the modification. However, I did take about 30 300 second subs just after doing the mod at night. It was only when I tried to take some darks the following morning (when it was warmer) that the camera flaked out at about 39^o C. That time the camera refused to restart and i discovered a suspect ribbon cable connection that I reseated. It worked again after that, but every time the temps go up, it goes the proverbial up! )

It is almost certainly temperature related. I will try some in the fridge right now and report back how far it goes!

[Pompey Monkey]

Just done 30 300 second subs in the freezer. Temperature issue for sure. Reported exif temp started at 25^o C and finished at 7^o C.

[Pompey Monkey]

Just done 30 300 second subs in the freezer. Temperature issue for sure. Reported exif temp started at 25^o C and finished at 7^o C.

Started another run in the freezer to confirm and it failed after four exposures!! Gaaah!!

There's nowt more fun than an intermittent fault.....

The forecast is clear and I'm hoping to have a go at the Veil tonight. I think I might fall back on the unmodded 600D.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Lets face it, it is a DSLR, it was intended to take exposures of 1/250 second and then take another half a second later.

...

It also sounds that you are not allowing any real cool down. I believe the general guide is 1:1, as in take a 60 seconds exposure then allow the camera to cool for 60 seconds. The exposure may also include a NR exposure which being the same duration as the exposure means you have in effect an exposure of 2x whatever you set, so the cool down is then 2x whatever you set.

That's really not helpful, plenty of people take multi-minute exposures with DSLRs with no problems. There is clearly a fault with the camera. Yes, a cooled CCD is a superior solution but DSLRs are capable and affordable. It's even possible to image the faintest objects with them (although probably not advisable), here's a DSLR image of the squid.

You keep repeating this advice of giving the camera equal cooldown time but I'm not aware of a single DSLR user who does this, it's really not necessary. It would be extremely wasteful to throw away half the available signal just to get the sensor temperature down a bit. When I look at my subs the first one in an imaging run (taken with a cool sensor) isn't noticeably less noisy than the rest.

[Pompey Monkey]

That's really not helpful, plenty of people take multi-minute exposures with DSLRs with no problems. There is clearly a fault with the camera. Yes, a cooled CCD is a superior solution but DSLRs are capable and affordable. It's even possible to image the faintest objects with them (although probably not advisable), here's a DSLR image of the squid.

You keep repeating this advice of giving the camera equal cooldown time but I'm not aware of a single DSLR user who does this, it's really not necessary. It would be extremely wasteful to throw away half the available signal just to get the sensor temperature down a bit. When I look at my subs the first one in an imaging run (taken with a cool sensor) isn't noticeably less noisy than the rest.

Indeed. I have had the 600D take 15 or so consecutive 600 second exposures. The noise was pretty much the same on every sub. Dithering would have helped, but that's a different story.

The 500D does seem noiser, but a few darks and, again, dithering should sort that out.

BTW, that image of the squid with a DSLR is incredible. 45 hrs? Blimey! Bortle 4? I get 6 on a good day night if I'm lucky!

[Adam J]

On 14/08/2015 at 12:40, Pompey Monkey said:

So I bought a second had 500D and removed the IR filter using the excellent instructions from Gary Honis (Thanks Gary!). After an initial hiccup, where I'd not reconnected one of the cables, it seems to work ok, although I'm still waiting for a clear night to try it out in anger.

However, when I give it a soak test of repeated 300 second exposures using APT, it dies and loses connection to the PC after a while. This seems to be related to the temperature of the sensor, which is reported in the filename by APT. It is all ok until the sensor reaches about 37-39^o C, upon which the camera dies until it cools down. I have repeated this on three separate tests, so this is a consistent effect.

Is this normal?

That is not normal.

I have never seen a DSLR raise its temperature more than 10c above ambient during repeated exposures 8c is more typical. However, I have no experience of the 500D only the 450D the 1000D and the 550D all of which are under 10c temperature increase.  

The only time I have see a larger temperature increase is when using live view for long periods. If you are using live view that may be causing it. 

[Adam J]

On 14/08/2015 at 18:37, ronin said:

Lets face it, it is a DSLR, it was intended to take exposures of 1/250 second and then take another half a second later.

It was not really meant to take a series of 600 second exposure. You have not modified it for astrophotography, you have just changed a filter so that a slightly different wavelength or two gets passed through, that does not make it an astrophotography camera.

The astrophotography ccd's are cooled, usually around -30c below ambient. Now they are designed for long exposure astrophotography.

It also sounds that you are not allowing any real cool down. I believe the general guide is 1:1, as in take a 60 seconds exposure then allow the camera to cool for 60 seconds. The exposure may also include a NR exposure which being the same duration as the exposure means you have in effect an exposure of 2x whatever you set, so the cool down is then 2x whatever you set.

On 15/08/2015 at 10:43, Knight of Clear Skies said:

That's really not helpful, plenty of people take multi-minute exposures with DSLRs with no problems. There is clearly a fault with the camera. Yes, a cooled CCD is a superior solution but DSLRs are capable and affordable. It's even possible to image the faintest objects with them (although probably not advisable), here's a DSLR image of the squid.

You keep repeating this advice of giving the camera equal cooldown time but I'm not aware of a single DSLR user who does this, it's really not necessary. It would be extremely wasteful to throw away half the available signal just to get the sensor temperature down a bit. When I look at my subs the first one in an imaging run (taken with a cool sensor) isn't noticeably less noisy than the rest.

Yes I agree unhelpful and factually incorrect. Even when running continual exposures you should not be getting more than 10c temperature rise from a DSLR. Cool down time is not really helpful especially if you are advocating losing 50% of your capture time letting the DSLR cool. As for the bit about noise reduction exposures, this should really not happen you should have long duration noise reduction and high ISO noise reduction set to off in the camera settings. I often used 10min subs with my DSLR prior to making a cooler for it without issues, now its cooled I often use 30min subs for ultra faint objects. 

 

 

[Mangleworsle]

I am new to astrophotography but not new to photography. There is definitely a fault with this camera as Canon cameras are capable of quite long high speed busts and also video, in fact a friend took a video of a wedding using a Canon DSLR with individual shots lasting 4 - 6 minutes. At the reception it West put on a party mount with a new 16 or 32 gig card in and just left to run, and when that ran out another was put in.All this with no problems at all.

I know this is an old post but I hope it might help people who worry about overheating. 

 

[Adam J]

On 14/08/2015 at 12:40, Pompey Monkey said:

So I bought a second had 500D and removed the IR filter using the excellent instructions from Gary Honis (Thanks Gary!). After an initial hiccup, where I'd not reconnected one of the cables, it seems to work ok, although I'm still waiting for a clear night to try it out in anger.

However, when I give it a soak test of repeated 300 second exposures using APT, it dies and loses connection to the PC after a while. This seems to be related to the temperature of the sensor, which is reported in the filename by APT. It is all ok until the sensor reaches about 37-39^o C, upon which the camera dies until it cools down. I have repeated this on three separate tests, so this is a consistent effect.

Is this normal?

Yes the 500D did tend to get quite hot. I would guess that you are hitting some sort of thermal cut off temperature from what you are describing. The reality is that at 40c you are not going to be getting any decent results in any case as the thermal noise will be just horrible. What I always note is that you get the really high (near CCD) quality DSLR images being posted on here during the winter months and the quality is hugely hit during the summer to a massive degree. There is a guy who lives up in the north of Norway that posts some incredible DSLR astro pictures and its all about the ambient temperature at his location. Allot of the reason you get such diverse opinion DSLR Vs CCD as a first camera for DSO work is down to the temperatures at the individuals location. So someone from Norway will tell you that a DSLR is a great start to imaging while someone from the south of Spain will look at him like he is crazy as nothing less than a CCD cooled to 40c below ambient will do.    

You have four options really.

1) Wait until the temperatures drop and image then, its not very dark at the moment anyway. 

2) Build yourself a DIY cooling solution for your 500D (this was my solution).

3) Purchase another DSLR that is not as effected by the heat and that produces less heat itself (450D) and potentially still have issues on the hottest days over summer. 

4) Purchase a dedicated cooled astro camera. 

Dark frames will not help you as there will be a wide range of temperature variation between your subs as the ambient temperature cools down during an imaging session and so your dark frames will be mismatched and actually make matters worse in my experience. Dithering will help though. 

The thing that you must remember is that for every 6 to 7c increase in temperature the noise will double meaning that if you have a cold day in winter and you achieve 0c and the hottest summer day and its 40c you will ave at least 64 times the noise in summer compared to winter. You really cant compensate for that. 

[gonzostar]

Good explanation This describes alot!

[Pompey Monkey]

20 hours ago, Adam J said:

Yes the 500D did tend to get quite hot. I would guess that you are hitting some sort of thermal cut off temperature from what you are describing. The reality is that at 40c you are not going to be getting any decent results in any case as the thermal noise will be just horrible. What I always note is that you get the really high (near CCD) quality DSLR images being posted on here during the winter months and the quality is hugely hit during the summer to a massive degree. There is a guy who lives up in the north of Norway that posts some incredible DSLR astro pictures and its all about the ambient temperature at his location. Allot of the reason you get such diverse opinion DSLR Vs CCD as a first camera for DSO work is down to the temperatures at the individuals location. So someone from Norway will tell you that a DSLR is a great start to imaging while someone from the south of Spain will look at him like he is crazy as nothing less than a CCD cooled to 40c below ambient will do.    

You have four options really.

1) Wait until the temperatures drop and image then, its not very dark at the moment anyway. 

2) Build yourself a DIY cooling solution for your 500D (this was my solution).

3) Purchase another DSLR that is not as effected by the heat and that produces less heat itself (450D) and potentially still have issues on the hottest days over summer. 

4) Purchase a dedicated cooled astro camera. 

Dark frames will not help you as there will be a wide range of temperature variation between your subs as the ambient temperature cools down during an imaging session and so your dark frames will be mismatched and actually make matters worse in my experience. Dithering will help though. 

The thing that you must remember is that for every 6 to 7c increase in temperature the noise will double meaning that if you have a cold day in winter and you achieve 0c and the hottest summer day and its 40c you will ave at least 64 times the noise in summer compared to winter. You really cant compensate for that. 

I bought an SBIG STF-8300M (about a year and a half ago) and haven't looked back. Even in the cold weather, it knocks spots off the DSLR. Also, perhaps from having no real interest in photography prior to astro-imaging, I find that the mono with filters approach much more intuitive to manage and control than OSC. Maybe it's because I'm and engineer...