Explore Scientific 24mm 68deg bargain

[alan potts]

I know I don't where glasses but that is the last thing I have ever thought about the 24mm Panoptic, never even considered ER.

I think the interesting thing is we are all different when it comes to eyes but mine tell me the Panoptic is the keeper and judging by the amount of wanted adverts I see for this, a few others agree, it is extremely expensive though close to 290 pounds, is that right? 

Alan.

[F15Rules]

I'm finding this all very interesting, and to some extent I can be detached from it as I don't own a scope faster than F9.5. That means I don't suffer from Coma or other reflector related aberrations, the worst I seem to see is a bit of field curvature now and again on the fastest F9.5, but it is slight.

Firstly, I'd refer to Spaceboy's experience and his account of it in the other thread comparing the ES24 68 to a BST 25mm. I think his honesty and reasoning are admirable and I applaud him for it. There is nothing worse than having a bad experience with a vendor, especially when you splash out that sort of money (£137), which for most of us is not insignificant.

I have never dealt with Bresser.de before this purchase of the ES24 68, and have since bought a little Messier 100/1400 Mak for grab and go use. Based soley on those two transactions I can't fault them: I emailed them twice, about different things, and received a reply in one case within 24 hours and in the other within 6 hours. Both items were delivered without problems and in new condition in the case of the ES and excellent in the case of the little Mak (which was an ex display item so the packaging had been opened for that). I wasn't actually looking at their site intentionally, I was looking for a Maxvision 24mm 68, but as many will know they seem to be rare as hen's teeth new, and it was a search for this product that brought up the ES version at the bargain price mentioned at the head of this thread. I have no idea if there is a particular reason for this low price (subsequently copied by Telescope House, who are owned by Bresser (funny, that!)), but having now got the eyepiece and compared it to my other ES products (ES6.7 82, MV 20 68, ES34 82), I can honestly not detect, cosmetically, or optically, any differences between them - the ES 24 68 looks, feels and performs just like it's colleagues. And at the price paid, it is an utter bargain. I'm not claiming it's as good as a Panoptic 24mm - I've never used one. But based on our own experts' comments and views here on SGL, if an eyepiece gets within 5% of the performance of the TV at a fraction of the purchase price, then to me it's an utter bargain and gives me access to performance that I could not otherwise enjoy. Simple as that.

Having said that, it is of zero value to someone else that I received a good service, if they received the opposite! We can only judge by our own experience -  have you noticed how, on Trip Advisor, you find wildly differing opinions on the exact same hotel for instance? It then becomes a numbers game, and we all seek reassurance in that, say 90% of opinions are great, and only 5-10% so so or poor, we take the majority and "hope for the best" that we will be one of the lucky 90%. It is extremely rare to find absolute satisfaction of 100% of buyers for any product. But even a 1 in 1000 bad experience, where 999 were good ones, is of no consolation to that 1 who had a bad experience.

Coming back to the actual eyepieces in question. It's inevitable I guess that comparisons are drawn between the class leader, Tele Vue in this case (and their leadership is not disputed by myself) and any potential "contender". And often the contenders make claims for their products which are to say the least ambitious if not downright unrealistic or misleading. For me, I just try to get the best product I can afford, and to do that I rely a lot on reviews by people whose views I respect, for example Bill P from CN and John from here at SGL. Their knowledge and experience can be invaluable pointers - but at the end of the day, it's what we see with our own eyes that will persuade us - or not.

Thanks to the c**ppy weather, I've not yet been able to do a night time first light on the ES24 68. But I have used the others mentioned a number of times now, (and also the MV16 and 28mm 68's), both in the day and at night, and they are uniformly superb performers for the cost paid - the best eyepieces I have used, with the exception of a Nagler T6 13mm I used once, and possibly a Vixen LVW which was too high a power (F3.5mm) for my scopes but was wonderfull ergononmically and build wise. I'd actually agree with Steve (Saganite) here - a daytime test does have some indicative value as to how the eyepiece performs, for example edge of field sharpness, although I also understand that night time performance on stellar point resolution, for example, is the really acid test of ultimate performance.

I would fully agree with Spaceboy (on the other thread) that the MV series give up little or nothing to the ES series: I do think the ES build quality is better - they are more "Tele Vue" like to look at and feel, but I did like the twist up eyecups of the MV and probably prefer them to the fixed eyecups of the ES (which is a feature also found on the TVs and which some people don't like either, or find a bit "old fashioned"). At the start of this, my intention was to get several MV 68s, but since the 24mm seems unobtainable, I then started looking at the ES series and have found several either used or at great sale new prices which has ended up with me having just one MV (the 20mm 68, bought new from TH), the ES 6.7mm (bought new from 365 Astronomy), the ES 34mm 68 (bought used on UKABS) and now the MV24 68 from Bresser.de. My own personal least favourite was the 16mm (I'd rather barlow my 34mm), and I let this one go, I found the eye relief a bit tighter. The MV28 68 I also got used, but moved on to young Dom on this forum, was a superb ep - it was just a bit too close to my existing 34mm and the 24mm which I intended to buy (and now have).

The MVs seem pretty much parfocal, as do the ES's, but there are small differences between the two series, so having a mix of both does mean some refocusing - not a big deal to me though.

In summary, I think we all have to make up our own minds what we like or don't. I think that if you can get them, a full set of Maxvisions would be fabulous value. The ES are more expensive but feel more special (at least in my hands), but don't offer (in the 68 deg series) any noticeable optical benefits. The ES 82s offer that wider view that many crave - my own preference is for the 68 degree view with super sharp field stop - the one exception to that is the ES 6.7mm 82 which I have found to be a revelation, being from a tradition of using short eye relief, narrow field orthos for high power - I have genuinely been gobsmacked at how good this eyepiece is at high powers, in my slower scopes.

As always, your mileage may vary, but I do hope that those of you who took a punt on the ES24mm 68 based on my starting this thread find them to be all you hoped - for the price!

Dave

[Mark at Beaufort]

Mark, may I ask what your thoughts are on the 18mm 82deg..?

thanks

fozzie

Fozzie

I had an 8mm, 13mm and 21mm Ethos and I decided that I needed an EP around the 17mm/18mm range. I bought the ES 18mm at Astrofest this year and liked it so much I bought the ES 4.7mm, 8.8mm and 14mm as well. I have sold my Ethos EPs so perhaps that tells you what I think of the ES 18mm 82 degree EP.  You will see from an earlier post that I use an Orion VX8 f4.5 Newt and the views I obtain are very good.

[Thonolan]

Here is a Cloudynights thread on the ES 24 68 from last year. The 3rd post has a link to the BillP group review which included the 24mm Panoptic:

http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/477829-opinions-on-the-explore-scientific-24-mm-68-degree/

I've not owned an ES 24 68 but I have owned the 24mm Panoptic and it was extremely sharp right across the field in all the scopes I used it with down to F/5. The only downsides to the Pan 24 are the price (which is a heck of a lot more than the ES) and that the eye relief can seem a little tight.

Thanks John, that's the review I was talking about. I must say the Panoptic 24 is the best eyepiece I've ever looked through - more impressive than any Nagler I've ever used. I don't own one though, it's from a friend. Essentially perfect both in fast and slow scopes.

[Fozzie]

(Slight tangent here fro the original..)

Thanks Mark, I had and have had very very good views from the EP.

I asked because I used the 18mm when the Jupiter Venus conjunction was occurring, during early evening twilight, in my F11 frac and 2" dielectric.. I was gobsmacked at a distinct browning of the filed of view to almost 40% from the outside edge.. (Is this vignetting?) I've not taken it out of the case since.. 

Perhaps this could be a daytime issue if that's possible?

I too have the 4.7, 11 and 14mm.. great EP's

Thanks

Fozzie

[spaceboy]

In summary, I think we all have to make up our own minds what we like or don't.

As always, your mileage may vary, but I do hope that those of you who took a punt on the ES24mm 68 based on my starting this thread find them to be all you hoped - for the price!

Dave

I totally agree with this Dave. I have found in the past what may work for one person doesn't necessarily work for another as we are all different. For example, Mark and his experience with the ES18 82°. For me I found the ES18 a high quality ep in the hand but in use it had far too short an eye relief to appreciate the whole 82° fov. There is speculation on other forums that the ES18 is actually 1.25" Meade 5000 UWA lens assembly in a ES 2" body and this is why the ER is tight and that it suffers some vignetting as Fozzie has experienced.

The sad reality is that it costs us a blumming fortune figuring out what does work each of us. As you say Dave it is a case of finding a balance between the good and bad reviews and deciding if it is a case of good or bad examples of Chinese QC that are making up the reviews.

While I have expressed my experiences with the ES24mm it has to be taken in to account that I purchased it at the full asking price so as already pointed out my expectations were high. While the ES24 didn't suit my needs maybe had I purchased it at £70 my thoughts would have been different and more a case of cost vs performance ?? I think for £70 you can't really go far wrong even if one was to end up a slightly soft eyepiece but again that is down to the user and what performance they consider acceptable.

[Saganite]

Having just read Bill P's amazing review of those eyepieces, which included the Pan 24mm as well as the ES 24mm, I can only feel even more delighted than I was yesterday when I carried out my little Ad Hoc experiment. I will ultimately buy an eyepiece of my own free will, and if it turns out to be a bad decision I will shrug my shoulders and move it on, as I have, more than a few times already, but I do fully take in any thoughts and comments, given on this forum, by people of many years experience. The final test of course comes when the eyepiece is exposed to the night sky in one's own scope, but I still prefer the input from members of this forum to assist my decisions, rather than buy and hope for the best.

I would not have spotted the bargain that Dave highlighted, and for that I am very grateful, particularly as it cost so little compared to the much more exotic glass in Bill's report, glass that he ultimately rated behind the ES 24mm.

[Fozzie]

There is speculation on other forums that the ES18 is actually 1.25" Meade 5000 UWA lens assembly in a ES 2" body and this is why the ER is tight and that it suffers some vignetting as Fozzie has experienced.

I'd not picked up on that before, it was second hand and replaced a SWA sky watcher 17mm 70deg so it was an improvement on that EP.. I was happy with it until the conjunctiongate scandal.

I will ultimately buy an eyepiece of my own free will, and if it turns out to be a bad decision I will shrug my shoulders and move it on, as I have, more than a few times already

I suspect we all have at some point.. Did I mention a 17mm 70deg SWA... it barked! I actually think it made me feel nauseous looking through it. 

[F15Rules]

I totally agree with this Dave. I have found in the past what may work for one person doesn't necessarily work for another as we are all different. For example, Mark and his experience with the ES18 82°. For me I found the ES18 a high quality ep in the hand but in use it had far too short an eye relief to appreciate the whole 82° fov. There is speculation on other forums that the ES18 is actually 1.25" Meade 5000 UWA lens assembly in a ES 2" body and this is why the ER is tight and that it suffers some vignetting as Fozzie has experienced.

The sad reality is that it costs us a blumming fortune figuring out what does work each of us. As you say Dave it is a case of finding a balance between the good and bad reviews and deciding if it is a case of good or bad examples of Chinese QC that are making up the reviews.

While I have expressed my experiences with the ES24mm it has to be taken in to account that I purchased it at the full asking price so as already pointed out my expectations were high. While the ES24 didn't suit my needs maybe had I purchased it at £70 my thoughts would have been different and more a case of cost vs performance ?? I think for £70 you can't really go far wrong even if one was to end up a slightly soft eyepiece but again that is down to the user and what performance they consider acceptable.

I think what was/is so sad, is that you had such a lousy customer service experience when you bought yours (and at full price too). I cannot understand why some retailers do not see that a purchasing decision for the first time by a buyer (and they will all be able to interrogate their customer relationship management (CRM) systems to see that a person IS a new customer) is their first (and maybe only) opportunity to delight them and retain their business (or some of it) for the future?

I know that in our forum sponsor we are spoilt a bit, as their service is, in my experience, consistently excellent, but they aren't the only ones in the UK, we have some great retailers, and so our expectations here are very high. Interestingly, as they are now part of Bresser, part of JOC, Telescope House have also always given me good service in my limited use of their services, so it's a mystery to me as to why some big players like Bresser, whose products are generally of decent quality, don't follow this up with great service.

Ultimately we have the control though, as we can decide where to spend our hard earned pounds (and Euros!).

Having just read Bill P's amazing review of those eyepieces, which included the Pan 24mm as well as the ES 24mm, I can only feel even more delighted than I was yesterday when I carried out my little Ad Hoc experiment. I will ultimately buy an eyepiece of my own free will, and if it turns out to be a bad decision I will shrug my shoulders and move it on, as I have, more than a few times already, but I do fully take in any thoughts and comments, given on this forum, by people of many years experience. The final test of course comes when the eyepiece is exposed to the night sky in one's own scope, but I still prefer the input from members of this forum to assist my decisions, rather than buy and hope for the best.

I would not have spotted the bargain that Dave highlighted, and for that I am very grateful, particularly as it cost so little compared to the much more exotic glass in Bill's report, glass that he ultimately rated behind the ES 24mm.

Steve, I was just thinking the same thing about that review  ..in fact, as I'm away for the weekend and it's bound to be cloudy thanks to all these ES eyepieces waiting to be tested (      ), I've printed it out to have a good old read of it from end to end.

Thanks to everyone who's chipped in to this thread, I learn so much from listening to everyone's views - and it's great fun reading all this stuff too  

Dave

[Mark at Beaufort]

The Sun has come out and I have just tested (all be it) very quickly using the PST. There are some wonderful proms and surface detail. I tested both the ES 24mm 68 degree and the MV 24mm 68 degree changing from one to the other. Both EPs provide a bright and sharp image of the Sun. So which is best? The MV IMHO gives a slightly sharper and brighter view than the ES 24mm although it is very close.

If it stays sunny I will set up the 4" Astro Tech with the Herschel Wedge and Continuum filter and test both EPs again.

Notwithstanding its not a bad EP for £69.

[Mark at Beaufort]

The 4" Astro Tech APO is set up and waiting for a clear period. I usually use binoviewers on the Astro Tech so I have added the polarising filter to reduce brightness. Hopefully, will give an initial opinion in the next 30 minutes.

[Mark at Beaufort]

OK well I have had a good look at the Sun with both EPs and used the Baader Continuum and Polarising filter. I was lucky because we have a good large sunspot 2403 to check sharpness. I was able to get good surface detail - granulation etc with both EPs. Checking sunspot 2403 both EPs showed  crisp and sharp detail in fact nothing between them. However, as the Sun moved towards the edge I obtained elongated distortion from about 70/80%. It was similar in both EPs.

So nothing to split them on viewing the Sun.

Would I pay the original asking price of £130ish for the ES 24mm 68 degree EP well the answer is no. At £69 its a good buy but if you can obtain a used 24mm MV then I would go with that.

Next test will be with the Orion VX8 where I know the 24mm MV performs reasonably OK.

[YKSE]

However, as the Sun moved towards the edge I obtained elongated distortion from about 70/80%. It was similar in both EPs.

Can it be so that this elongated distortion comes from Pincushion distortion? How does the Sun look like close to the edge when you use an 82 deg eyepiece?

[Chris]

Would I pay the original asking price of £130ish for the ES 24mm 68 degree EP well the answer is no. At £69 its a good buy but if you can obtain a used 24mm MV then I would go with that.

Got to agree with this, for 69 pounds it's worth it for the fit and finish and viewing comfort. For 130 pounds for about 50 degrees of reasonable sharpness at f/6 I feel it's over priced and the MV24 I had was better corrected, albeit this was in an F6 Dob not an F6 frac.

I've just paid 82 pounds so I really can't complain If I find it's still not for me at f9, I can probably move it on at a suitable price and it would have been worth the small loss to have enjoyed playing with the eypiece and learning what I've learnt

[Mark at Beaufort]

Can it be so that this elongated distortion comes from Pincushion distortion? How does the Sun look like close to the edge when you use an 82 deg eyepiece?

I don't think the problem is with the telescope. I never use a single EP to view the Sun, Moon or Planets I always use binoviewers with a 1.5x barlow. I never noticed pinclusion distortion before but I will check. I have a 18mm ES 82 degree EP but its 2" so won't fit the Herschel Wedge. Unfortunately the Sun is now covered with cloud but I will try the 14mm ES 82 degree which 1.25"

[YKSE]

Got to agree with this, for 69 pounds it's worth it for the fit and finish and viewing comfort. For 130 pounds for about 50 degrees of reasonable sharpness at f/6 I feel it's over priced and the MV24 I had was better corrected, albeit this was in an F6 Dob not an F6 frac.

If we're talking about field curvature, I don't think a 6" or 8" f6 dob is correct comparison to a 70mm f6 frac. A 6"f6 dob has field curvature same as its focal length 900mm, i.e. virtually flat, while 70mmf6 frac has curvature about 160mm, i.e. worse than standard 8" SCT, and with much morse depth of focus than a stand 8" SCT, the curvature of the scope will be quite dominant, have a read here.

[YKSE]

I don't think the problem is with the telescope. 

Neither do I.

The pincushion distortion is in the eyepieces, ALL wide field eyepieces have distortions, either Angular Magnification Distortion(AMD) or Rectilinear Distortion(RD), pincushion distortion or barrel distortion is the two forms of RD. Most astronomical eyepieces have RD, it's best be seen in daylight, where straight lines will be curved in the edge and round object will be elongated.

Edit:

To be more clear, I suspect that the elongated Sun in your scope is not the same thing as unsharp edge seen in Chris scope.

[Chris]

If we're talking about field curvature, I don't think a 6" or 8" f6 dob is correct comparison to a 70mm f6 frac. A 6"f6 dob has field curvature same as its focal length 900mm, i.e. virtually flat, while 70mmf6 frac has curvature about 160mm, i.e. worse than standard 8" SCT, and with much morse depth of focus than a stand 8" SCT, the curvature of the scope will be quite dominant, have a read here.

Thanks for the link, I've never really thought about quantifying field curvature before but it's a piece of cake isn't it I knew the Newt and Frac would have a different effect depsite them both being f6, so it's good to understand it's all about focal length and what arc said focal length rakes out. 

This would also explain why I remember the MV24 being so much better. I've got my fingers crossed the ES68 24mm will do much better at about 900mm in the ED100.

The link says a good EP can componsate for field curvature to some degree, so I'm guessing this is where some of the money goes with the Pan24.

[YKSE]

The link says a good EP can componsate for field curvature to some degree, so I'm guessing this is where some of the money goes with the Pan24.

I kind of doubt it. To be able to compensate field curvature of a scope, the eyepiece needs to have curved field in opposite way. My understanding is that Televue eyepieces have quite flat field, therefore can't compensate the curvature of a scope.

[Thonolan]

The ES68 34mm and ES100 20mm have arrived as well. So time for some solo and family portraits. Of course you don't need to wonder why it's getting cloudy over here and apparently will be only getting worse towards the weekend.

The ES25 and ES20 are quite different externally. Eye lens looks concave in the 20mm and almost flat on the 25. Field lens of the 25mm is strongly convex, a lot more than that of the 20mm. The coatings of the 25mm look greener. 20mm is more like greenish blue with some purple.

Checked the field stop without scope and it seems it's slightly easier to see the entire field with the 20mm. The blue ring of fire is a bit more pronounced on the 25. Again, if the coming clouds allow, I'll try some first light reports as soon as possible.

[John]

They are nice looking units

The only ES eyepiece that I've ever owned was the ES 20mm / 100 and I thought that really good for the couple of months that I owned it.

Isn't there some duplication though with the 25mm 100 showing more sky than the 34mm 68 does ?

[F15Rules]

Technically that's right John but I think it's more about catering for different viewing preferences: for example I generally don't get on with ultra wide views-I actually prefer to see a nice sharp field stop, whereas I know a lot of observers prefer the "spacewalk" experience (I confess I've never really got my head around that term:-)).

For me it's all about the view, clarity and comfort. I can't ever see myself buying a 100 deg 34mm but I really like my 68 34mm.

I think it's interesting that Baader, a company I have a lot of time for, have chosen a 76deg field for their new Morpheus flagship range- maybe that's the point at which they feel they can get buyers from both superwide and ultrawide camps interested to maximise volumes? And also perhaps an easier to design and build format? Will you be testing these out for us John?:-)

Dave

[John]

I've been promised the loan of a set of the Baader Morpheus's by FLO Dave, as soon as a magazine has finished with them

Difficult to see how I can improve on the excellent review that BillP has already done on these though

I have a set of the Vixen SSW's on loan at the moment but the cloudy skies here are getting in the way a bit.

I agree that Baader have been clever with their choice of specifications for the Morpheus which seems to combine spaceous views with comfortable eye relief better than anything around, on paper.

Baader do to tend to put quite a lot of thought into their designs though, from other products of their that I've used / tried

I admire companies that are prepared to try something a little different.

[Thonolan]

Isn't there some duplication though with the 25mm 100 showing more sky than the 34mm 68 does ?

Yes, but most of the time they will be used in different scopes. I have two different observing sites, one of them with a Mak/Cass 180mm, and I don't really like using ultra wide fields in the Mak as they would be working at small, planetary oriented exit pupils. The 34mm 68º does fill a sweet spot in the Mak though, slightly above the 2mm exit pupil, excellent for galaxies and some extended star clusters, as well as nebulae if I happen to prefer unfiltered views that night.

So the 68º eyepiece is going for the Mak most of the time, and the 100º eyepieces will be used in a 10" dobsonian at bigger exit pupils (around 4-5 mm). I'm also building an observatory for a future 18" dobsonian but that will have to wait a few months at least

[John]

Yes, but most of the time they will be used in different scopes. I have two different observing sites, one of them with a Mak/Cass 180mm, and I don't really like using ultra wide fields in the Mak as they would be working at small, planetary oriented exit pupils. The 34mm 68º does fill a sweet spot in the Mak though, slightly above the 2mm exit pupil, excellent for galaxies and some extended star clusters, as well as nebulae if I happen to prefer unfiltered views that night.

So the 68º eyepiece is going for the Mak most of the time, and the 100º eyepieces will be used in a 10" dobsonian at bigger exit pupils (around 4-5 mm). I'm also building an observatory for a future 18" dobsonian but that will have to wait a few months at least

Good answer !

Not having read lots of your posts I was unaware what scopes you intended to use the eyepieces in. What you say makes a lot of sense

I find the views though a 20/21mm 100 degree eyepiece in a decent sized dobsonian (12" in my case) intoxicating. I have some light pollution to contend with and the higher magnification really helps blacken the background sky. It's my favourite combination for hunting deep sky objects