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new SX Ultrastar camera


nytecam

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Just heard that Starlight Xpress will soon launch a new hi-res live-view USB2 camera for the EAA market.  Called the SX Ultrastar and based on Sony's highly sensitive EXview HAD CCD II ICX825 2/3" chip [=11mm diagonal].  It's twice the size [area] of the Lodestar sensor and has over three time the number of pixels.   The colour version uses RGBG Bayer matrix.

Camera is a diminative ~50g and housed in Lodestar 1-1/4" push-fit anodised aluminium barrel [32x72mm] with 'C mount' thread. Current s/w is SX825 and PHD2 and others in preparation.  The camera is uncooled and can also be used as an auto-guider.

Ultrastar   pixel pitch = 6.45uM × 6.45uM in 1360×1024 pixel array = 1.4Mp close to HDMi resolution. 
[Lodestar pixel pitch = 8.6uM x 8.3uM in 752x580 pixels array        = 0.44Mp and more transparent CYMG colour matrix].  

In summary it's a larger finer pitched sensor in a classic Lodestar body.  Hope it's of interest to forum users.  If I get more info I'll post. 
 

Sony's website @ http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/new_pro/may_2014/icx825_e.html
SX market a high-end cooled version in TRIUS-H9 camera see http://www.sxccd.com/trius-sx9c with an earlier sensor.

Nytecam

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Nytecam,

This is exciting news. My only concern is that the RGBG color mask and overall lower sensitivity may make the exposure times a little long. I think a scope setup like the Celectron RASA or Hyperstar may cormpensate and make this an ideal EAA combo, albeit a bit expensive.

Btw, SX does market the Trius with the 825 sensor. The have the mono on their site but not the color. They do sell the color here in the US.

http://www.optcorp.com/starlight-xpress-trius-sx-825-usb-hub-color-ccd-camera.html

Keep us posted.

Don

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Nytecam,

This is exciting news. My only concern is that the RGBG color mask and overall lower sensitivity may make the exposure times a little long. I think a scope setup like the Celectron RASA or Hyperstar may cormpensate and make this an ideal EAA combo, albeit a bit expensive.

Btw, SX does market the Trius with the 825 sensor. The have the mono on their site but not the color. They do sell the color here in the US.

http://www.optcorp.com/starlight-xpress-trius-sx-825-usb-hub-color-ccd-camera.html

Keep us posted.

Don

Don --- both mono and colour Trius-H9 are include on the SXsite but with the older version of the sensor. Presumably the newer 825 will be available in both Trius and Ultrastar models but with a marked price reduction for the Ultrstar!

Nytecam

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Nytecam,

What's your thoughts on exposure speed for the Ultrastar? The one image shown by Atik of M51 did not look like high res. they may have had it binned 2x2. Past results from the 825 were very good, but have exposures in the 120-180 second range. I find that a bit too long for EAA and it would probably require guiding for most of us with average mounts.

Don

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Very exciting times for us EAA astronomers indeed!

I am currently working to integrate support for the Ultrastar into LL (no command line arguments etc). Some of the display processing (and stacking) might need some extra optimisation to deal with the increased resolution.

It will be great to see the capabilities of the Ultrastar vs the Lodestar. There is always binning if needed to boost sensitivity but only time under the stars will tell us what these new wave of cameras are capable of over those we already enjoy.

On a slightly separate note - can the administrator of this group PM me (not sure who to contact).

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Nytecam,

What's your thoughts on exposure speed for the Ultrastar? The one image shown by Atik of M51 did not look like high res. they may have had it binned 2x2. Past results from the 825 were very good, but have exposures in the 120-180 second range. I find that a bit too long for EAA and it would probably require guiding for most of us with average mounts.

Don

I believe you are possibly referring to the images I took with the Atik 414EX color camera.   I choose those exposure times not from trial an error but by guessing that the sensitivity would be close to what I would  need with my ICX418 MallinCam camera and being taken with a C8 @ f5 and an Idas LPS filter.   The exposure times could have been reduced using live sum stacking and stretching the image but I didn't have the capability to do that at the time.  Also this was my first time using a CCD camera and I only had 2 nights of trial usage of this camera for it was on loan.  The point I'm trying to make is that I wouldn't base my capture times as gospel.  Many of you who use LS (new and old) run them with faster scopes and without filters  and it seems the more sensitive mono cameras are favored over color ones, so one should take that into account in regards to exposure length.  My concern with either of these new prospective cameras will be how much noise will be present without cooling and how well the software will be able to get around not having cooling.

Since I primarily broadcast my images on NSN I find that once a capturing technique is mastered that the over all time from object to object seems to be less dependent on exposure time. 

Don

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I couldn't find an edit button.   :laugh:    So what I want to make clear is that with the limited time I had to use the camera and my limited CCD imaging experience I didn't have time to experiment on keeping my exposures as short as possible.   It was a test to see if NLI (Near Living Imaging) was possible with the camera and to make the images as pretty as possible, without post processing, in the exposure times chosen and the short stack sequences used.

Don

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Don,

I was thinking of your excellent images from the Atik 414, and I did recall and consider your comments regarding your short time with the cam and lack of testing shorter exposures. I only pose the question because the 825 sensor specs would suggest less sensitivity than the 829 that I find works very nicely for EAA. I don't need to sum stack and my exposures rarely exceed 45 seconds for even faint DSO's even with slower scopes and filters. I often use F ratios greater than 5 and frequently use my NB Ha filter both with color and mono. If I want to capture the image, I just do a few mean stacks and snap one. Also, for outreach recently, I had the opportunity to use a C14 with Hyperstar. I was getting fully exposed images in 15-20 seconds. If it took over a minute or two to get something, you would start losing the audience.

I know there is really no definitive answer at this time, so we'll just have to wait and see. There are two excellent camera developers pursuing this, so expectations are high. If there's a way to do this, I'm sure they will find it.

I think your SGL editing capability is limited until you have more posts. Don't know why though.

Don

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If you visit the SX Homepage at http://www.sxccd.com/ and click on Products and Gallery under Trius-SX9 and the earlier SXVR-H9 [H=hi-res] you'll see some data and long exposure AP pics. A similar but updated 825 sensor used in the new Ultrastar. 

Before the Lodestar I used for many years the SXVR-M9 camera which had the same sensor area as the Ultrastar but the same 0.44Mp count as the Lodestar eg larger pixels !  Also the SXVR-H9 could be s/w binned 2x2, 3x3 and 4x4 for increased sensitivity [mono only] but whether is will be available for the Ultrastar is uncertain. 

I suspect the mono Ultrastar unbinned will be at least twice the sensitivity of colour sensor version due to the latter's 'dense' RGBg matrix  :police:   

Nytecam

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Nytecam,

What's your thoughts on exposure speed for the Ultrastar? The one image shown by Atik of M51 did not look like high res. they may have had it binned 2x2. Past results from the 825 were very good, but have exposures in the 120-180 second range. I find that a bit too long for EAA and it would probably require guiding for most of us with average mounts.

Don

I'd say refer to Martin's long and detailed thread about the equivalency of many short stacked exposures to fewer long stacked exposures.  Even if the Ultrastar is only 50% as sensitive as the Lodestar, it's down to needing e.g. 40x10sec instead of 20x10sec to get the 'brightness' you want - no need to extend the individual subs.  Your only limitation will be on total integration time, driven by how long your tracking will keep the subject in the camera FOV.

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Very exciting times for us EAA astronomers indeed!

I am currently working to integrate support for the Ultrastar into LL (no command line arguments etc). Some of the display processing (and stacking) might need some extra optimisation to deal with the increased resolution.

It will be great to see the capabilities of the Ultrastar vs the Lodestar. There is always binning if needed to boost sensitivity but only time under the stars will tell us what these new wave of cameras are capable of over those we already enjoy.

Paul,

It's VERY good that you are on top of Ultrastar compatibility for LL.  I think you are dead on right about the areas you may need to optimize.  I'm signed up to be a dedicated tester for you as soon as I can get hold of one of these new cameras!

Thanks again for LL - it's provided me with tons of enjoyment already.

Alex 

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I'd say refer to Martin's long and detailed thread about the equivalency of many short stacked exposures to fewer long stacked exposures.  Even if the Ultrastar is only 50% as sensitive as the Lodestar, it's down to needing e.g. 40x10sec instead of 20x10sec to get the 'brightness' you want - no need to extend the individual subs.  Your only limitation will be on total integration time, driven by how long your tracking will keep the subject in the camera FOV.

Alex,

I am very familiar with Martins's excellent work on fast stacking and it's ability to eliminate the need for guiding. I do prefer to keep stacking to a minimum. I still like the single extended image that falls within my tracking capability without guiding. My major concern though is the overall time to produce the proper exposure. If it's 20 x 10 seconds, it's not EAA to me. Just my opinion.

Don

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........ If it's 20 x 10 seconds, it's not EAA to me. Just my opinion.

Don

Don - surely you get to see to see the image from the first 10s stack and build through the full stack. That's live-view as far as I'm concerned - the basis for EAA Even for my experimental static scope test with sub-1s exposures to counter star trailing results were live-view:-)
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Nytecam,

I guess it's just a matter of preference.  I usually frame my object at some short exposure like 10 seconds.  Sometimes it's barely visible.  Then I boost the exposure to 30 or 45 seconds and voila, it comes out in full bloom.  I could probably just stack at ten seconds, but in either case, if I had to wait over three minutes, it loses the live feel to me.  I don't even like to wait 45 seconds.  I also think this is especially important in outreach.  Ideally, you would like to see objects in less than 30 seconds.  But, as I said it's just my opinion.

Don

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Nytecam,

I guess it's just a matter of preference.  I usually frame my object at some short exposure like 10 seconds.  Sometimes it's barely visible.  Then I boost the exposure to 30 or 45 seconds and voila, it comes out in full bloom.  I could probably just stack at ten seconds, but in either case, if I had to wait over three minutes, it loses the live feel to me.  I don't even like to wait 45 seconds.  I also think this is especially important in outreach.  Ideally, you would like to see objects in less than 30 seconds.  But, as I said it's just my opinion.

Don

Don,

I think it's also down to what objects you are wanting to view.  With bright things like GC, you get a very satisfying view with a quick exposure, even just a few seconds.  Bright nebulae are also in reach of a 30 sec or shorter exposure.  The objects Martin mostly posts about - e.g. galaxy clusters at half a gigalightyear remove, are only going to be visible after several minutes of exposure.  It's in that realm that stacking many short images makes EAA possible without having to have super-accurate tracking and/or a guide scope.  I have found that even fairly bright objects like M51 or M27 really benefit from stacking several minutes worth of short subs.  Although you get a view of the object right away - the first 10 sec sub gives at least the shape of the thing, the kind of fine detail that emerges after several dozen subs makes it worth the wait.  As Nytecam noted, i's fun to watch the detail of the image build over time - almost like developing film back in the old days...

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Hi Don - no news on pricing but advised the new hi-res 825 sensor is "expensive" :eek:

Hi,
Nytecam where do You get all those information from, do You know someone from SX? I'm just curious, i can't find anything myself and this looks so promising...

Hi MrOD - you must try harder!  Virtually all the info I've posted here is gleaned from the Starlight Xpress homepage http://www.sxccd.com/  and anyone could have done it!    Check their site for Products [=cameras]; Support [=camera s/w downloads] and Gallery [=sample customer images from most SX cameras].

To clarify I'm an SX customer but otherwise have no connection with the company.  Currently using the Lodestar and previously the SX-MX9 - always in brief exposure "live-view". Got an invite to test the new Ultrastar and now await some clear skies! 

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