Need advise on a Ethos?

[Mr Spock]

You will not regret buying a 13mm Ethos, especially if you can find one second hand and in mint condition.

Agreed. When I had a 250mm Skywatcher my most used eyepiece was a 13mm LVW (I can't afford the ethos) and it was the perfect focal length. You definitely won't regret buying the 13mm Ethos.

[John]

As Rod Mollise's name and his views on the Ethos v's Explore Scientific 100's have been raised, it's interesting to see what he actually has in his eyepiece case as at May this year:

http://uncle-rods.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/whats-in-my-eyepiece-box.htm

Rod is primarily an SCT user.

I think his issue is at the 20mm / 21mm focal length where he feels he can't justify the additional cost of the 21mm Ethos over the 20mm ES 100 and he also raises the possibiliy of vignetting if they were used with the F/6.3 focal reducer.  Having owned both myself I can understand what he means. If my scopes were SCT's then I'd probably not have made the additional investment in the E21 either.

It's worth recalling that the original poster of this thread has a 10" f/5 dobsonian.

[jetstream]

It seems Rod prefers Zhumell and Williams optics over the ES at this time?

My own personal observation with a 17E is that for nebula contrast, with and without an OIII, is that the Ethos gives a brighter, more contrasted view, every time. I've had inexperienced friends and family try the 17E vs my 18mm ES 82, 18mm BCO and the 16mm T5 Nagler and they all said the Ethos was best. The 18mm BCO is very close but the FOV is very restrictive for a lot of nebula use. The ES 100 use the same coatings as the ES 82 from most accounts

I must add all these eyepieces are excellent and provide really good views. The purged ES 82 are really good in cold environments, I brought the 18mmES in from -30c and ran water over it to thaw it and test it....It survived and performs flawlessly. It is one of my goto cold weather eyepieces- very frost resistant as well.

The 13mm Ethos will give the best of views, only rivaled by the Docter 12.5mm UWA IMHO- I thought I read a CN thread on this, not sure

I must say again, all these eyepieces are fantastic, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Of course this is only my opinion.

[kurtz9]

As Rod Mollise's name and his views on the Ethos v's Explore Scientific 100's have been raised, it's interesting to see what he actually has in his eyepiece case as at May this year:

http://uncle-rods.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/whats-in-my-eyepiece-box.htm

Rod is primarily an SCT user.

I think his issue is at the 20mm / 21mm focal length where he feels he can't justify the additional cost of the 21mm Ethos over the 20mm ES 100 and he also raises the possibiliy of vignetting if they were used with the F/6.3 focal reducer.  Having owned both myself I can understand what he means. If my scopes were SCT's then I'd probably not have made the additional investment in the E21 either.

It's worth recalling that the original poster of this thread has a 10" f/5 dobsonian.

Right, because when he bought those the ES equivalents didn't exist.

He's since mentioned if he had it to do all over again today he'd have ESes in there instead of Televues because having since compared them he can't find the value in paying 2x (or nearly 3x in 20/21mm) for basically identical views.

Hence my advice to the OP to consider doing the same.

And yes I know he's an SCT user- so am I primarily, as I mentioned.

Though it's worth noting many of the users in the other threads I referenced are F5-ish Newt users who also felt the ES EPs stood up just fine against the Televues in their scopes too.... (especially those running with a paracorr)

YMMV of course-  overall I'd encourage folks to try both on their own if possible, with their scope, in their conditions, and their eyes.

[John]

.....YMMV of course-  overall I'd encourage folks to try both on their own if possible, with their scope, in their conditions, and their eyes.

Thats very sensible advice.

Thats what I've been doing for the past decade basically. I've settled on Tele Vue and Pentax eyepieces after trying literally dozens of types / brands.

[Stu]

It would be interesting to know the OP's input on this. Are they set on Ethos' and just looking to choose the best for their situation, or are the ES a genuine option?

Personally I have Televue eyepieces in my cases because I enjoy their performance, I like the way they look and feel and finally I like supporting small manufacturers that innovate not copy. I'm looking forward to trying out the Delites at some point soon.

Whilst I do enjoy reading about eyepiece tests and comparisons, I sometimes feel this misses the point. The joy for me is observing with the best kit I can afford and not constantly to be worrying about whether eyepiece A would show it better than eyepiece B. I like challenging myself with small scopes just to see what I can see.

Observing conditions, plus observer skill make a more significant difference than many of the small differences between the best eyepieces.

Go with what suits your budget, what you like and feel comfortable with and just enjoy it!

[estwing]

I too have looked through both types of ep's....as good as,doesn't cut it with me. I want the contender not the pretender...one must remember how much TV have spent on research and development, I reward them with my hard earned money

[DRT]

I have very similar views (see what I did there?) to BigSumorian and estwing. I buy the best I can afford and I like the idea of supporting a small company like TeleVue that is leading the way in eyepiece design. That is why five of the six Ethos EPs I own were bought new.

The DeLites will be in my case as soon as they become available here in the UK. I don't plan to buy a range of competitor's EPs to try side by side simply because I don't feel the need.

[DRT]

as good as, doesn't cut it with me

This reminds me of the VW Golf adverts - why have something that sounds/looks/feels like a Golf when you can have a Golf?

[alan potts]

I would like to pick up on a point that was made somewhere in the thread about Delos and Ethos. If the Poster was to want high quailty in a smaller feild of view, I can say that after checking all the duplications in the 2 ranges from 17mm down to 6mm I can't see a great deal of difference between them other than the size of field delivered by the more expensive one, other aspects are as good as it gets.

They are superb eyepieces no matter what you choose. I have opted to stay with the Ethos and last week sold many of my longer Delos, I think I will stay with the two shorter ones as the 3.7mm E does not appeal to me and I have sat on the fence for 3 years now over the 4.7mm. I think I am waiting for a site member to buy one and wax lyrical.

In selling OK I lost out on ones I bought new but the secondhand ones within a few quid I got my money back.

[kurtz9]

To be clear-  If folks feel like they want to pay 2-3 times as much for a product to support innovation, or because they prefer the behavior of a particular company over another, I completely, totally, and firmly support their right to do that.  It's their money, they should be perfectly free to "vote" with it how they want.... and I certainly see the appeal in encouraging companies that innovate.

For that matter if they want to pay 2-3 times more because they feel good about having a certain brand name, I think that's silly personally, but certainly support your right to do that too.

My objection is when folks attempt to justify having spent a lot more by insisting it's a functionally much better product, when in most cases, to most observers, in most scopes, it genuinely isn't- to the point that most threads you can find comparing them are filled with folks saying they couldn't see much difference.

It's why I wish there was some way to do a genuinely "blind" EP comparison.... I guess you'd have to build some sort of generic-looking box/shroud for every EP you intended to test to make it impossible to tell what brand/model a person is looking through... 

Because I'd bet real money most folks in most scopes would not reliably be able to pick the "expensive" EP as the better one in such a face off between ES100s and Ethos (or ES82s and Naglers... or ES68s and Panoptics)

[niallk]

I too have looked through both types of ep's....as good as,doesn't cut it with me. I want the contender not the pretender...one must remember how much TV have spent on research and development, I reward them with my hard earned money

+1 for supporting the company that continues to push the EP performance envelope for amateurs

I always thought it shocking how ES apparently did a tear down & copy of the Ethos EP series. I went searching on the USPTO for TV patents to see why they aren't sueing them, but I didn't find protection. As a design engineer, it galls me to see such apparent plagiarism and undercutting in the marketplace...

[Stu]

Kurtz, I too respect your views on this, and agree it is worthwhile pointing out the options available. I think we should be careful though to focus on answering the OP's question rather than the thread becoming sidetracked into an ES vs TV argument.

Please feel free to start some threads specifically discussing your views if you would like to. In the meantime, I do hope that the OP has not been scared off, and comes back to give further input on their thoughts and requirements.

One further thought..... It is often discussed whether it is possible to tell the difference between an 1/4 pv mirror and 1/10th. I suspect the true answer is that it is difficult except under good seeing conditions and at high power, but knowing your mirror is good, and to a guaranteed spec certainly assures you that the performance is at known, and high level of performance. The same could be said of TV, you are getting a known quality product with excellent QC so puts your mind at rest.

Now, my apologies for doing exactly what I suggested not to do , but please let's keep this particular thread focused on answering the OP's question, and any further information they may require.

Cheers,

Stu

[Scooot]

I didnt get on at all with an ES 20mm, 100 deg mainly due to the eye relief, so there are factors other than the views at play when choosing an eyepiece. http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/192296-es-20mm-100-first-day-light/

I've since bought a 13mm Ethos, but I was very careful to research the eye relief as much as I could before hand, once bitten and all that ....

The 13mm Ethos is fine and I love using it. I nearly sold my 17.3mm Delos after I'd bought the Ethos because the fov is the same. I'm very glad I didn't, there've been many occasions when I've preferred less magnification. In terms of comparing the two, I'll echo Moonshane's post, the Delos is a much more comfortable eyepiece to use, particularly as I use a dioptrx. It's more relaxing and I can have the eye guard up.

[Stu]

+1 for supporting the company that continues to push the EP performance envelope for amateurs

I always thought it shocking how ES apparently did a tear down & copy of the Ethos EP series. I went searching on the USPTO for TV patents to see why they aren't sueing them, but I didn't find protection. As a design engineer, it galls me to see such apparent plagiarism and undercutting in the marketplace...

Schnittvergleich_W.jpg

The trouble is, filing a patent immediately gives all the information to competitors that they need to copy the design and amend it slightly so as to avoid any infringements. I guess that's why Televue didn't patent the Ethos design.

[niallk]

Fair point re derailing the thread - and a sincere apology to the OP and everyone for my part in it

I'm very interested in the answers to the orig question! I've got two neat Naglers and luv 'em, but dream of the 100* fov experience and the practical benefits in a manual dob... though the increased weight ...erm... weighs on my mind for balance

[alan potts]

Niallk,

There is no doubt in my mind that the 100 degree FOV comes into it's own with a Dobsonian, something I only really appreciated in the last few months. I have made a move away from Delos not that there is anything what so ever wrong with them, for the use of Ethos.

I don't know how fast your scope is but mine at F4.3 benefits from the use of a paracorr, so it may be another cost to consider, I think the OP should also bear this in mind, that larger FOV is open to coma much more so than the smaller FOV's

The balance can be an issue but I would have thought this is with the larger 17mm and 21mm which do weigh a bit, I don't have a problem myself but the scope is a fairly big one.

Alan

[bamastar]

Sorry, I've been on vacation at the beach for a few days and haven't been on much. To answer some questions, I'm not dead set on the Ethos. I have only one wide field ep and its a 82° ES 11MM, and I love it! I now like the wide field I'm not 100% set on 100° fov eather. I'm going to have the $ in a few months that would allow me to buy a ethos, but not set on it. Its not only about fob for me, I really like how crisp a image is as well. That's why I liked the Orion Stratus over the Nagler. To me the view was more defined and sharper with the orion. I'm hoping to know for sure what I will decided on come the 8th when I got to a star party and hopefully get to try a few ep's. I didn't mean to start a big debate over ES vs Tv ! Lol

[laservet]

Kurtz9,

Very true but then you would always be wondering if the TeleVue is better, which it is, anyone that states there is NO difference for me is not looking hard enough. I have had ExSc amd many Meade eyepieces along side TV and Pentax and differences are there, it just depends if you want to pay for the extra mile. What I will agree is they make make very good quality and value for money eyepieces that come close to the afore mentioned.

The other thing is if you are able to pick any of these up secondhand they hold their value as do most originals after all they are not just clones of a design someone else spent ages on. 

Alan

In my experience in a well corrected scope the ES is not as sharp at the edge, has some off axis astigmatism the Ethos lacks, and has a little more scatter than the Ethos. Whether it is worth the price delta depends on one's tolerance for these aberrations, the quality of the scope's optics, and budget. Second hand is a great option, but buying a new Ethos rewards the company that put all the R&D money bringing a new design to amateur astronomers.

I'd start with the 13.

[bamastar]

With my ES 11mm I have a little bit of coma around the edge, but its not to bad. I don't feel the need for a corrector at this point. Other than that, its a great ep. Its my goto ep at the moment for DSO and planets.

[John]

With my ES 11mm I have a little bit of coma around the edge, but its not to bad. I don't feel the need for a corrector at this point. Other than that, its a great ep. Its my goto ep at the moment for DSO and planets.

If you go for a 100 degree eyepiece you will see more coma because it will be showing more of the off-axis field and coma increases as you move off axis. Thats not the fault of the eyepiece but the newtonian optics.

[jetstream]

I don't see astigmatism in the ES 82's and just the normal amount of coma for an 82deg eyepiece in an f4.8 newt. They are good eyepieces.

[red eye]

Marc,

For my DOB with 1200 FL , I really only need 3 eyepieces yielding mags of approx 50X, 100X and 150X.

My choices are a 26mm Nagler Type 5, a 13mm Ethos, and a 8mm Ethos (all purchased used).

Of those 3, the 26 is for scanning, the 8 is for detail and close ups of globs, so my recommendation

would be for the 13E because it spends by far the most amount of time in the focuser.

Hope this helps,

David

[albedo0.39]

I agree - E 13mm is my "go anywhere" lens. Even if I do not take my scope to Star Parties, I always take my E13 - superb

[bamastar]

I just became a member of the Birmingham (Alabama) Astronomical Society and Saturday night was going to be my first monthly star party and a state park, and no one showed up except one man came right at dark with his 10" dob too. He stayed for about a hour then it was just me. I was so hoping I was going to meet some people and maybe get to test some gear in my scope. I wound up driving 50 miles to do what I do at home and observe alone. I've been thinking! I have looked through the Orion Stratus ( Baader Hyperion) and loved the view threw them. I may just buy the set (or nearly the whole set) of Hyperions. I also like the fact that there both 1 1/4 & 2" and except both size filters, and by adding barrels to it, you can change the FL of the ep.