Home Observatory UK

[Snaxmuppet]

USB3 is difficult over more than the standard 3m. Yes, there are longer cables (with boosters etc) but it becomes more picky the longer you go.

What about a USB3 to Ethernet adapter on each end? You can run the cat5 cable easily then between them? http://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-RJ45-Ethernet-Network-Adapter/dp/B0095EFXMC Not tried it myself but it just might do the trick at a sensible price?

[Astroboffin]

Thanks AB, though your first post was not terribly optimistic.

There must be some solution to this.  Someone must have been able to get a 15' run of USB 3 working?

No sorry about that, but there must be someone that has overcome this issue.

Regards

And good luck with the rest of the build, I am sure it is going to,be Sulerb when finished

AB

[nightvision]

Did a lot of (pre obsy-build) testing with extended USB and then cheap multiple PC set ups; I have found it better to have a dedicated desktop PC alongside the mount and use remote-desktop via Ethernet.  Tested various mixes and found XP-pro and or Win-7-HP  work well.  

Desktop systems are very cheap now (Ebuyer/Morgan and Ebay) and you don't need a high performance system alongside the mount.  

[gnomus]

Did a lot of (pre obsy-build) testing with extended USB and then cheap multiple PC set ups; I have found it better to have a dedicated desktop PC alongside the mount and use remote-desktop via Ethernet.  Tested various mixes and found XP-pro and or Win-7-HP  work well.  

Desktop systems are very cheap now (Ebuyer/Morgan and Ebay) and you don't need a high performance system alongside the mount.

I am sure this would work. However, part of the point of the observatory was to get the computers into the warm room because of the condensation problems I had when doing all this outside.

Can you give me a bit more info on what a "remote desktop via Ethernet" looks like? Do I need a monitor at the telescope to get thsi working, for example.

[Astroboffin]

You will basically have a computer next to your mount, connected to all your kit, then you have another computer in your warm room or the house, and as long as they are both connected to the Internet either my an Ethernet cable or via wireless then you can mirror what is on the PC next to the mount, on the other in the warm room or house, as if you are sat in front of the PC at the mount, that is called Remote Desktop.

There are a lot of different software packages around to,get this to work and most are free, I use Teamviewer, I can control a PC from my iPad as if I was sat at it.

Hope that makes sense to you

It does to me in my head, but I wrote it....lol

I am not the best at explaining things

Regards

AB

[Tonynexevo925]

You will basically have a computer next to your mount, connected to all your kit, then you have another computer in your warm room or the house, and as long as they are both connected to the Internet either my an Ethernet cable or via wireless then you can mirror what is on the PC next to the mount, on the other in the warm room or house, as if you are sat in front of the PC at the mount, that is called Remote Desktop.

There are a lot of different software packages around to,get this to work and most are free, I use Teamviewer, I can control a PC from my iPad as if I was sat at it.

Hope that makes sense to you

It does to me in my head, but I wrote it....lol

I am not the best at explaining things

Regards

AB

+1 for teamviewer remote via iPad

[gnomus]

You will basically have a computer next to your mount, connected to all your kit, then you have another computer in your warm room or the house, and as long as they are both connected to the Internet either my an Ethernet cable or via wireless then you can mirror what is on the PC next to the mount, on the other in the warm room or house, as if you are sat in front of the PC at the mount, that is called Remote Desktop.

There are a lot of different software packages around to,get this to work and most are free, I use Teamviewer, I can control a PC from my iPad as if I was sat at it.

Hope that makes sense to you

It does to me in my head, but I wrote it....lol

I am not the best at explaining things

Regards

AB

I've had a look at Teamviewer and it seems straightforward. The shed is going to be at the end of the garden. I'm hoping to get Internet out to it but my (rural) broadband is unreliable at the best of times. Can I simply connect two computers together via an Ethernet cable and run one PC (in the cold room) with another (in the warm room)?

[Scorpius]

3.0 isn't an issue for me since all my stuff is 2.0. From what I've seen most astro gear is in fact 2.0 but seems like you're thinking 3.0 will be necessary for at least some of your gear. At any rate, I plan to go USB over Cat5 - even though it's a little expensive - and I'm thinking a 4-port extender like this will take care of everything. If I end up needing more than 4 ports - I'll just add a splitter to a couple of the ports on the hub. However, maybe I'm overlooking something important so any thoughts on 2.0 USB over Cat 5? http://www.tripplite.com/usb-2.0-cat5-cat6-extender-transmitter-receiver-164-feet-4-port~B203104PNP/

[keithc]

I've just come across this thread and this echoes my own situation. I have a new obsy being erected on 15th July. I have run power and a Cat5 cable to the base. However, I'm lucky enough to have fibre broadband and a dual frequency router. I have an existing sh d close to,ten house and I have installed a Nethear 1200 wireless extender in there and I get a really strong wireless signal when I have my laptop on the obsy base.

I also have Teamviewer and I can control my laptop from my desktop in my home office. I also bought a USB 3.0 10 port hub and then ran into the 3m length issue. I have done some extensive research on extending this and the conclusion is that at the present time for USB 3.0 it's not easy. I bought a USB 2.0 Ethernet 4 port server from Maplins for £30 and so far my tests show it works a treat. I do t have a dedicated CCD camera yet, but do have a Nikon D810. Download time for a 40Mb RAW file from this over USB 2.0 is around 10 seconds. With a 30 second cool down pause between frames this is easily enough for my purposes so that's the way I'm going.

Because I can use wireless it looks like the Cat5 cable I installed is not required.

I'm now of the opinion that USB 3.0 is not required with the current technology. I also searched the Internet for a USB 3.0 over Cat5/Cat6 solution but so far nothing. There are USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet adapters out there, as already posted, but these are NOT extending USB 3.0 to distance points. They are providing a Gigabit Ethernet port via a USB 3.0 port on the PC/Laptop for connection to a network.

Keith.

[gnomus]

Keith

Thanks for posting. So you connect your gear to the hub, then how long is the USB 2 cable that you then run to your laptop?

[keithc]

Hi Gnomus, apologies I may not have been very clear. I have a Cat5 cable from the Ethernet port on my laptop to a USB 2.0 4 port server that I bought from Maplins here http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/gigabit-network-server-4-port-usb-20-hubThis comes with its own power supply and associated software.

A Cat5 or Cat6 Ethernet cable can go up to 100 metres so the possibilities of extending your USB reach around your home are pretty much unlimited. My obsy will be 12m x 8m so I will use a Cat5 cable around 4m long which is more than enough. The 4 port USB server will be located on my pier so I can use standard USB cables from my equipment to the server.

Physically the server is around 15cm x 10cm so very compact. My camera, Nikon D810, is USB 3.0 but works just fine over USB 2.0. so far all the USB devices I have tested have worked just fine so I've no reason to believe this won't work when I get the obsy up and running. I'm also sure that if you shop around you'll be able to find similar servers with more USB ports than 4.

For my setup, SW NEQ6 mount, and Nikon D810, I will use 2 ports. I can comfortably add a guide camera and a focuser to this setup when I have the funds in the future.

Hope you find this useful,

Keith.

[gnomus]

Hi Gnomus, apologies I may not have been very clear. I have a Cat5 cable from the Ethernet port on my laptop to a USB 2.0 4 port server that I bought from Maplins here http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/gigabit-network-server-4-port-usb-20-hubThis comes with its own power supply and associated software.

A Cat5 or Cat6 Ethernet cable can go up to 100 metres so the possibilities of extending your USB reach around your home are pretty much unlimited. My obsy will be 12m x 8m so I will use a Cat5 cable around 4m long which is more than enough. The 4 port USB server will be located on my pier so I can use standard USB cables from my equipment to the server.

Physically the server is around 15cm x 10cm so very compact. My camera, Nikon D810, is USB 3.0 but works just fine over USB 2.0. so far all the USB devices I have tested have worked just fine so I've no reason to believe this won't work when I get the obsy up and running. I'm also sure that if you shop around you'll be able to find similar servers with more USB ports than 4.

For my setup, SW NEQ6 mount, and Nikon D810, I will use 2 ports. I can comfortably add a guide camera and a focuser to this setup when I have the funds in the future.

Hope you find this useful

Keith.

Keith

This sounds good, but the link you posted doesn't seem to be working. Would you mind trying it again, or give me a product code for the device that you are talking about?

[nightvision]

No need for Teamviewer, Windows has Remote Desktop built in (it's part of the feature rich versions like Win7-Home-Premium and XP-Pro) and can control any Windows PC running any windows version (7, 8. XP, etc).  Do a search on Google or Microsoft web site for more info.  I tried Teamviewer but found it was intermittent and also dependent on an Internet connection which made it vulnerable to the round trip delay to the Teamviewer service and vulnerable to my ISP taking down the Broadband service (which they do for about 10 minutes usually between 0030 and and 0130!.  Unlike Teamviewer Windows Remote-Desktop is TCP/IP directly between 2 PC's over Ethernet, no Internet required :-).

You see the entire desktop of the obsy pc via RM, I have a couple of old 17" 4:3 monitors connected to an old desktop with a dual display graphics card all next to the mount (currently installed in the garage).   The dual-monitor image of the obsy desktop appears on my 27" widescreen monitor in the study, the obsy monitors are switched off most of the time, I will probably have just one obsy monitor once I build my permanent obsy.  If I ever need to go to USB3 I will install a USB3 card in the obsy PC.  

With PCs like this one: http://www.ebuyer.com/658956-lenovo-e50-desktop-pc-90bx0018uk   selling for £120, USB3 cards for £8 on the bay, Morgan Computers still selling 4:3 monitors for less than £50 and Win7-HP cheap on the bay it shouldn't be expensive to build a reliable remote obsy.

A url for Windows RM overview:  http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/connect-using-remote-desktop-connection?src=ia&iaaid=50004500&ialnk=step#connect-using-remote-desktop-connection=windows-7

There is also a Linux/Ubuntu package that works with remote Windows PCs.

[Scorpius]

I've just come across this thread and this echoes my own situation. I have a new obsy being erected on 15th July. I have run power and a Cat5 cable to the base. However, I'm lucky enough to have fibre broadband and a dual frequency router. I have an existing sh d close to,ten house and I have installed a Nethear 1200 wireless extender in there and I get a really strong wireless signal when I have my laptop on the obsy base.

I also have Teamviewer and I can control my laptop from my desktop in my home office. I also bought a USB 3.0 10 port hub and then ran into the 3m length issue. I have done some extensive research on extending this and the conclusion is that at the present time for USB 3.0 it's not easy. I bought a USB 2.0 Ethernet 4 port server from Maplins for £30 and so far my tests show it works a treat. I do t have a dedicated CCD camera yet, but do have a Nikon D810. Download time for a 40Mb RAW file from this over USB 2.0 is around 10 seconds. With a 30 second cool down pause between frames this is easily enough for my purposes so that's the way I'm going.

Because I can use wireless it looks like the Cat5 cable I installed is not required.

I'm now of the opinion that USB 3.0 is not required with the current technology. I also searched the Internet for a USB 3.0 over Cat5/Cat6 solution but so far nothing. There are USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet adapters out there, as already posted, but these are NOT extending USB 3.0 to distance points. They are providing a Gigabit Ethernet port via a USB 3.0 port on the PC/Laptop for connection to a network.

Keith.

Hi Keith,

Great info as this seems to be one of the big issues we keep hearing about – finding a reliable way to get data from scope to PC (and vice versa) over longer distances than normal. So if I’m understanding you – the original plan was to use USB/Cat5 but you decided to go wireless so you can control the scope, cameras, etc. from the PC in your house and don’t have to bother with long cable runs?

But getting back to USB/Cat 5 - am I right in thinking it would work pretty well provided all you need is a hard wired USB 2.0 connection? “Hardwired” meaning a Cat5 cable from a 110V powered, USB 2.0, multi-port hub at the mount to a single USB port on the PC where the USB receiver is connected. So if that’s how it works – all the data – imaging camera, imaging software, guide camera and guiding software - plus any additional USB accessories like motorized filter wheels - will be traveling back and forth through a single Cat5 cable which can theoretically move 480 Mbps. And that 480 Mbps gets “divided up” between all the attached accessories by the electronics in the USB/Cat5 extender?

It seems like 480 Mbps (Mb meaning “megabits” and ps meaning “per second”) is a pretty fast transfer rate (60 MB per second) so even if it does get divided up amongst everything connected – just how much faster data transfer rate would you really ever need? Regarding the length of the CAT5 cable – am I also right in assuming it can be of any length that doesn’t exceed the manufacturer’s maximum stated distance? Before I plunk down $150 on this thing, I want to make sure I’ve got my mind wrapped around how it actually functions including how much data - and how fast – should you allow for in order to get everything  from points A to point B on time.

Also, I keep hearing about frame rates so exactly how does frame rate (say 30 fps) translate to Mbps? Can the imaging camera be “robbed” of an acceptable frame rate by something like the guiding software or could the imaging camera and the guide camera end up in competition for data causing problems with one or the other – or both? It seems like only the “Big 4” mentioned above would need to receive and/or send data via USB all at the same time – but motorized filter wheels and focusers won’t be using much (if any) data at the same time since they’re always dormant during an active imaging session. I just can’t think of any other high demand USB devices there could be to worry about but maybe I’m missing something? I checked the file size of a 600 sec. luminance sub and for my camera, it was about 1.6 MB so if the USB/Cat5 can move 60 MB per second, it seems that would be more than enough to handle everything with no problem.

Sorry for jumping back in gnomus but if I’m hearing you right – like me you’re leaning toward an adjacent warm room PC with a hardwired connection to the scope – but not a remote wireless setup like Keith’s talking about?

[gnomus]

No need for Teamviewer, Windows has Remote Desktop built in (it's part of the feature rich versions like Win7-Home-Premium and XP-Pro) and can control any Windows PC running any windows version (7, 8. XP, etc).  Do a search on Google or Microsoft web site for more info.  I tried Teamviewer but found it was intermittent and also dependent on an Internet connection which made it vulnerable to the round trip delay to the Teamviewer service and vulnerable to my ISP taking down the Broadband service (which they do for about 10 minutes usually between 0030 and and 0130!.  Unlike Teamviewer Windows Remote-Desktop is TCP/IP directly between 2 PC's over Ethernet, no Internet required :-).

You see the entire desktop of the obsy pc via RM, I have a couple of old 17" 4:3 monitors connected to an old desktop with a dual display graphics card all next to the mount (currently installed in the garage).   The dual-monitor image of the obsy desktop appears on my 27" widescreen monitor in the study, the obsy monitors are switched off most of the time, I will probably have just one obsy monitor once I build my permanent obsy.  If I ever need to go to USB3 I will install a USB3 card in the obsy PC.  

With PCs like this one: http://www.ebuyer.com/658956-lenovo-e50-desktop-pc-90bx0018uk   selling for £120, USB3 cards for £8 on the bay, Morgan Computers still selling 4:3 monitors for less than £50 and Win7-HP cheap on the bay it shouldn't be expensive to build a reliable remote obsy.

A url for Windows RM overview:  http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/connect-using-remote-desktop-connection?src=ia&iaaid=50004500&ialnk=step#connect-using-remote-desktop-connection=windows-7

There is also a Linux/Ubuntu package that works with remote Windows PCs.

Hi Tony

I have spent some time trying to get this to work, because it would be the ideal solution.  Unfortunately, I keep running into the same problem.

To enable Remote Desktop connection, I am supposed to tick the box in the lower dialogue window:

But none of my machines have the lower dialogue box.  All I get is:

I believe that this is because I am using the bog-standard "Home" editions of Windows (7 & 8) that came on the machines when I got them (most likely from PC World).  If someone could find a way to get round this, that would be great.

Steve

[keithc]

So I have 2 PC's. A desktop in the house and a laptop that will be installed in the obsy. The laptop in the obsy will have a Cat5 Ethernet cable from the Ethernet port on the laptop in the warm room to the pier. There I will connect the other end to the4 port USB Gigabit Network Server. This allows me to connect 4 USB devices at the pier as if they were directly connected to the laptop. The one I have is from Maplins and comes complete with the required software to make it all work. The usb server cost £29.99 from here http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/gigabit-network-server-4-port-usb-20-hub-n01jz not sure why the previous link didn't work.

All the initial set-up will be done in the obsy but, then, I can retreat to the house and use Teamviewer 10 to take control of the laptop in the obsy and monitor from there. I bought a Netgear 1200 wireless network extender which is installed in my garden shed close to the house and picks up my wireless signal and extends that across my back garden. This means I can use my wireless network to take control of the laptop in the obsy.

Now although I have Windows 7 Ultimate on the desktop PC, the laptop is Windows 8.1 Home edition. The home edition of all Windows version does not support the Windows Remote Desktop connection so you have to use either a different tool or install the Professional or Ultimate version of Windows (which is not cheap). I selected Teamviewr 10 as, for non commercial use, is free.

Keith.

[nightvision]

Steve, that looks good to go for the obsy PC (it's just a different release of Windows from the example), the warm room or study PC will need to be at least XP-Pro or Win-7-Home-Premium to connect and display the obsy desktop.  If you have a version that supports Remote Desktop control you will a find program called mstsc.exe in System32.  Run this and enter the name of the obsy PC and enter your login details for the obsy PC.  The obsy PC and Control-PC will need to have IP addresses (either configured manually or supplied by your router via DHCP).  You will need the name of the obsy PC or for older versions of mstsc you can use the IP address. 

What version of windows do you have on the control/study PC?

[nightvision]

If you haven't got mstsc and or the required Windows version then just install Ubuntu as a dual boot on your study PC and then install the remmina app or if you have problems try the other Linux RDP apps, this will give you control of any Windows PC on the network and at no expense! 

[gnomus]

If you haven't got mstsc and or the required Windows version then just install Ubuntu as a dual boot on your study PC and then install the remmina app or if you have problems try the other Linux RDP apps, this will give you control of any Windows PC on the network and at no expense! 

Thanks for your advice....

But, *GULP*

What you have done there Tony is over-estimate my knowledge of PC-speak.  ....  As the great Manuel used to say, "Que? ... I from Barcelona".

I have a second USB 3 hub on its way to me so that I can try the "daisy-chaining" method.  Failing that, I am going to speak to a local PC guy to see if he might be able to set up some computers for me exactly as you describe. 

[gnomus]

So I have 2 PC's. A desktop in the house and a laptop that will be installed in the obsy. The laptop in the obsy will have a Cat5 Ethernet cable from the Ethernet port on the laptop in the warm room to the pier. There I will connect the other end to the4 port USB Gigabit Network Server. This allows me to connect 4 USB devices at the pier as if they were directly connected to the laptop. The one I have is from Maplins and comes complete with the required software to make it all work. The usb server cost £29.99 from here http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/gigabit-network-server-4-port-usb-20-hub-n01jz not sure why the previous link didn't work.

All the initial set-up will be done in the obsy but, then, I can retreat to the house and use Teamviewer 10 to take control of the laptop in the obsy and monitor from there. I bought a Netgear 1200 wireless network extender which is installed in my garden shed close to the house and picks up my wireless signal and extends that across my back garden. This means I can use my wireless network to take control of the laptop in the obsy.

Now although I have Windows 7 Ultimate on the desktop PC, the laptop is Windows 8.1 Home edition. The home edition of all Windows version does not support the Windows Remote Desktop connection so you have to use either a different tool or install the Professional or Ultimate version of Windows (which is not cheap). I selected Teamviewr 10 as, for non commercial use, is free.

Keith.

Thanks Keith. That link is now working. The box looks like it might work. It will be interesting to hear if it all works for you - I wasn't clear if you'd tried it all out yet.

[mhard26339]

My dome to study is approx 27M and I run mount, 2 cameras, full dome control, focuser, all sky camera, IP camera etc etc through a powered hub and USB cable to my computer in the study and it all worked OK, no problems. However, I settled on a Cat6 Ethernet cable hard wired through my router to a computer in the dome. This is controlled via TeamViewer and works very well from anywhere in the world; however when laying cables I did lay the 30M USB down as well just in case I need it in the future.

If you do decide to go the USB route make sure that you get an industrial grade USB hub such as (http://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-com-Mountable-Rugged-Industrial-Port/dp/B003AVPUZG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435918386&sr=8-2&keywords=industrial+usb+hub). the cheap, even powered hubs, do not stand up to being left outside in sheds and domes and expected to work every time when required IMHE

My build can be viewed at New Observatory in Norfolk UK.

regards

Mike

[keithc]

Well, I've hooked everything up and ran some tests with the mount and camera attached. It all works BUT, there is roughly 10 second delay between every action. For example, I start Cartes du Ciel and connect to the mount and there is a 10 second delay before it successfully connects. Select a target and command the mount to slew and there is a 10 second delay before it begins to slew. Likewise with BackyardNikon, I configure a sequence of frames with a 10 second pause between each frame and there is an additional 10 second pause between each frame that I did not configure.

So, I went back to my directly connected USB 3.0 Hub and tested again and this time everything worked flawlessly. So it looks likes like either the Network USB server is introducing the delay or it's something to do with USB 2.0. I will see if I can get the loan of a USB 2.0 hub and run some more tests. I'll post again when that's complete.

Keith.

[gnomus]

I've been able to do some more testing.  First up, power supplies.  I went ahead and bought the power supply I mentioned in an earlier post - http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/375w-linear-dc-variable-voltage-bench-power-supply-rp10l  This seems to be working well,  It has an ammeter and voltmeter built in.  I don't know how accurate these are, but the readings were what was expected.  Overall amperage used when running everything (including 2 x dew heaters) hovered around the 4-5 amps.  Since this unit will give me 20-25 amps at 13.8V this seems to be adequate.

The second thing is daisy-chaining USB 3 hubs.  I now have two USB 3 powered hubs.  They are made by different manufacturers.  I have all the gear plugged into one powered hub.  I then have one USB 3 lead connecting this hub to a second powered hub.  A final USB lead connects this second hub to my laptop's only USB 3 port.  

I tried testing this to destruction last night.  The news is that it seems to be working (including running the mount via the hubs), so long as the length of USB 3 cable between the hubs does not exceed 3 metres.   If I tried swapping in a 5 metre cable between hubs (and I tried two different cables), then things would mostly work, but some components would be erratic.  For example, the ZWO ASI120 was simply not being detected at all when using a 5 metre cable - and sometimes the EFW 2 went undetected too.  

With 3 metre cables I could get 59-60 fps out of the ZWO at max frame size.

I think I am going to be able to keep USB cable length down to 3 metres in my observatory.  As such, (and I don't want to tempt fate here) I think I have found a solution.  

[sloz1664]

Hi Gnomus,

You have to bear in mind this is at the height of summer - mild temperatures. Cold winter temperatures may have an adverse effect will your usb cables.

Steve

[fondofchips]

What happened to pictures of the obsy construction?

Had to ask......    When is it (the shed) due?

Clear skies,

Fondofchips.