Don't buy the Sony A5000/5100 for astrophotography

[jimmcwibb]

I bought a wired remote from ebay for a fiver which locks for continuous shooting. Just make sure the camera is in continuous mode and it won't take a noise reduction image.

[AlphaGazer]

So I stumbled across this thread while trying to figure out how to shoot exposures longer than 30 seconds without holding down the shutter in the bulb setting (I never found that answer.. I assume it is possible?).. I bought an A5100 a couple weeks ago to upgrade from the typical pocket point and shoot cameras I used when I was younger. I started out taking a few 30 second exposures of the night sky at the beach with the camera and now want to try taking exposures longer than 30 seconds, but it doesn't sound like ill be able to do any night time photography longer than 30 seconds..? Its still within the 30 day return period, should I get my money back and upgrade to an A6000?

[sharkmelley]

It quite normal for cameras to be limited to 30seconds.  To obtain longer exposures, switch it to bulb-mode and plug in an intervalometer to control the exposure length.  It will happily do longer exposures.

The problem (and the original point of this thread) is that when you do a long exposure, say 2 minutes, then the camera will sit there for an extra 2 minutes taking an internal dark to subtract - this is called Long Exposure Noise Reduction (LENR) and it cannot be disabled on this particular camera - this is very unusual. So a 2 minute exposures takes 4 minutes in total.  The A6000 gives the user the ability to switch LNER on or off - this is how cameras usually work.

Mark

[Astroscot2]

Cheers

[AlphaGazer]

My camera does this even for the less than 30 second exposures..? So the length of time it takes to "process" is the issue at hand, not the automatic noise reduction itself? I thought the noise reduction was messing up peoples astrophotography photos/star trails in the over 30 second exposures? If not, will I be able to get by with this camera doing longer than 30 second astrophotography exposures? Waiting for the photos to "process" is kind of annoying, but if thats all the problem is at hand then I'm not sure I need to worry about rushing out and and switching it for an a6000. 

[AlphaGazer]

Oh and there isn't a way to set the camera up for like a 5 minute exposure or something? Id rather not have to hold my finger on the shutter for 5 minutes, and it doesn't seem like theres a feature to "lock" the shutter down on the Sony PlayMemories App. i was trying to avoid having one of the shutter control buttons wired to my camera/dangling from the tripod.

[happy-kat]

If you can not use a remote shutter trigger you wont get good photos. Using your finger will mean shaky blurred long exposure pictures.

Sticky Velcro is very useful to stop stuff hanging.

Edited November 17, 2015 by happy-kat

[AlphaGazer]

If you can not use a remote shutter trigger you wont get good photos. Using your finger will mean shaky blurred long exposure pictures.

Sticky Velcro is very useful to stop stuff hanging.

Yeah, blurring the photos is one of my issues (the other being having to hold my finger there for an extended amount of time.. lol) I use the PlayMemories camera controller app through my phone. Wireless/wifi shutter button, but I'm not sure there is an option to lock the button down or use BULB mode in that app so i might have to get the wired shutter button for my longer exposures anyways. 

[sharkmelley]

 I thought the noise reduction was messing up peoples astrophotography photos/star trails in the over 30 second exposures?

Maybe you are referring to the bulb-mode star eating behaviour?  This is common to all mirrorless Sonys to the best of my knowledge.  It is a type of noise reduction that cannot be switched off and affects all exposures done using bulb mode (whatever their length).

Mark

[jimmcwibb]

My camera does this even for the less than 30 second exposures..? So the length of time it takes to "process" is the issue at hand, not the automatic noise reduction itself? I thought the noise reduction was messing up peoples astrophotography photos/star trails in the over 30 second exposures? If not, will I be able to get by with this camera doing longer than 30 second astrophotography exposures? Waiting for the photos to "process" is kind of annoying, but if thats all the problem is at hand then I'm not sure I need to worry about rushing out and and switching it for an a6000. 

Are you sure it happens in continuous drive mode? I've tested it thoroughly, the camera doesn't "process" (take a long exposure nose reduction dark) when in continuous drive mode. I tested it in manual and shutter priority modes.

Oh and there isn't a way to set the camera up for like a 5 minute exposure or something? Id rather not have to hold my finger on the shutter for 5 minutes, and it doesn't seem like theres a feature to "lock" the shutter down on the Sony PlayMemories App. i was trying to avoid having one of the shutter control buttons wired to my camera/dangling from the tripod.

Have you tried the timelapse app? You might have to investigate wired intervalometers. But you will get a LENR after each exposure... no matter what.

My camera does this even for the less than 30 second exposures..? So the length of time it takes to "process" is the issue at hand, not the automatic noise reduction itself? I thought the noise reduction was messing up peoples astrophotography photos/star trails in the over 30 second exposures? If not, will I be able to get by with this camera doing longer than 30 second astrophotography exposures? Waiting for the photos to "process" is kind of annoying, but if thats all the problem is at hand then I'm not sure I need to worry about rushing out and and switching it for an a6000. 

[EmilN]

Well, not entirely true. I agree it is totally inconvenient but there is a way of setting A5000 to BULB mode without Noise reduction.

1. Set the camera to M mode for manual exposure shooting.

2. Set the camera for continuous bracketing at "BRK C 0.3ev". It is a setting available in the bracketing menu.

3. Rotate the control wheel for setting exposure time to BULB.

4. Use wired remote for better stability. I purchased NEEWER and it has a mechanism holding the button until released.

[sharkmelley]

Well, not entirely true. I agree it is totally inconvenient but there is a way of setting A5000 to BULB mode without Noise reduction.

1. Set the camera to M mode for manual exposure shooting.

2. Set the camera for continuous bracketing at "BRK C 0.3ev". It is a setting available in the bracketing menu.

3. Rotate the control wheel for setting exposure time to BULB.

4. Use wired remote for better stability. I purchased NEEWER and it has a mechanism holding the button until released.

Excellent!  If what you say is true then it certainly gives owners of these cameras a workaround.  Unfortunately I no longer own this camera so I can't give it a try.

Mark

[Frankie-B]

Thanks Mark that worked perfectly!  I followed your steps and took a 60 second sub.  Once the exposure was over it was instantly available in the preview screen and the camera did not take an equal duration dark frame.  Now my question is:  what is that setting doing?  Meaning what is the 0.3ev?

Also, I saw a lot of talk about using a wired remote shutter button.  I've tried those, in fact I have the NEEWER but, if that's not convenient for you I use the Sony Remote Camera Control (free from Sony) along with a small program called PHDMax which is also freeware available at www.felopaul.com to take a user selected number of subs in bulb mode for a defined duration of your choosing.  It's main purpose is to provide dithering through PHD.  Essentially it's a software intervalometer and dithering tool.  Just connect the camera via USB and program it to take as many subs as you like.  Think of it as a super striped down version of BackyardEOS for Sony cameras.  Considering how limited the SDK developer tools are for Sony cameras it's a pretty amazing little piece of software.

Frankie

[Frankie-B]

Sorry, I was so excited about that working, correction:  THANKS EmilN.

[EmilN]

Frankie, thanks for the Remote hint. I will definitely give it a try. Is RMTDSLR2 the code of this remote?

About "BRK C 0.3ev". I am a newbie with those things but my guess is that this is for Continues bracketing with 0.3 incrementing of the changed parameter. It takes effect mainly with short exposures when the camera takes three consecutive photos while you continuously hold the shutter button. Obviously it has no impact if you are in BULB mode when bracketing stops after the release of the button. It shoots a single frame without NR.

It also does a single photo with exposure settings between 1 sec and 30 sec as long as the button is released before the exposure time is over.

[ccdfreak]

Does anyone know what the foot note *F in Sony's Smart Remote Control Specification means?

see https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/usbspec.php?eid=IS9104-NPIA09014_00-F00002

The Bulb Shooting mode of the a5100 is marked with a "*F", which resolves to:

"*F: Long exposure noise reduction is turned off during BULB shooting"

Isn't that exactly what the TO meant?

- ccdfreak

Edited February 24, 2016 by ccdfreak

[The Admiral]

I've had a number of digital SLR/mirrorless cameras over the years, and the noise reduction could be switched off on all of them if I remember correctly.

It seems extremely limiting of Sony to prevent that, particularly as it's a simple software switch.

Ian

[ccdfreak]

Hi Ian,

you're absolutely right! This feature is also necessary for gapless time-lapse at low light levels.

I wondered if Sony had improved the a5100's behaviour according to the mentioned spec.

-ccdfreak

[sharkmelley]

2 hours ago, ccdfreak said:

Does anyone know what the foot note *F in Sony's Smart Remote Control Specification means?

see https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/usbspec.php?eid=IS9104-NPIA09014_00-F00002

The Bulb Shooting mode of the a5100 is marked with a "*F", which resolves to:

"*F: Long exposure noise reduction is turned off during BULB shooting"

Isn't that exactly what the TO meant?

- ccdfreak

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.  If the ones marked *F mean "Long exposure noise reduction is turned off during BULB shooting" then does it imply the ones not marked *F mean "Long exposure noise reduction is NOT turned off during BULB shooting"?

Mark

[ccdfreak]

Hi Mark,

yep, quite confusing, isn't it?

Do you still own the alpha5100 you mentioned in your start post? If so, would you please check whether the latest version of the RC app supports the none-LENR mode?

-ccdfreak

[sharkmelley]

9 hours ago, ccdfreak said:

Hi Mark,

yep, quite confusing, isn't it?

Do you still own the alpha5100 you mentioned in your start post? If so, would you please check whether the latest version of the RC app supports the none-LENR mode?

-ccdfreak

I sent the A5100 straight back as soon as I realised that the camera menu had no option to turn off the LENR.  I then went for the Sony A7S for the full-frame sensor and its supposed reputation for astrophotography.  I then noticed the bulb mode "star eater " problem which affects all the A-series cameras.  Then realised I was only getting 12bits of raw data from what Sony advertise as a 14bit camera.  The list goes on.

I wish I had never bought Sony.  The only advantage it has is that, being mirrorless, it is small and light.

Mark

[ccdfreak]

Ok, now I've read about the issues of the alpha cameras. I had a similar problem some weeks ago when I wanted to use the bulb mode in my old NEX-5T. The bulb mode was not available by the RC app, so I searched for a suitable successor in the Sony world...

Despite of that I'm still investigating the possibilities to design a simple full frame monochrome CMOS astro camera on my own. My plans are so far: 20-25MPixel CIS 24mm x 36mm, 3e- noise rms, temperature stabilization down to dew-point, USB3.0 Interface, ASCOM driver support, pricing  approx. 3.5k$. At the moment I'm stuck on the decision how to bring it to life - DIY or Open Hardware.

-ccdfreak

[sharkmelley]

23 hours ago, ccdfreak said:

Ok, now I've read about the issues of the alpha cameras. I had a similar problem some weeks ago when I wanted to use the bulb mode in my old NEX-5T. The bulb mode was not available by the RC app, so I searched for a suitable successor in the Sony world...

Despite of that I'm still investigating the possibilities to design a simple full frame monochrome CMOS astro camera on my own. My plans are so far: 20-25MPixel CIS 24mm x 36mm, 3e- noise rms, temperature stabilization down to dew-point, USB3.0 Interface, ASCOM driver support, pricing  approx. 3.5k$. At the moment I'm stuck on the decision how to bring it to life - DIY or Open Hardware.

-ccdfreak

Where are you going source a mono 24x36 CMOS sensor?  If such sensors were easily obtained I've no doubt Atik/SBIG/StarlightExpress/QHY/Moravian/FLI would already be building such cameras and selling them in large quantities.

Mark

[ccdfreak]

Hi Mark,

as I've been developing scientific and surveillance cameras for over 15 years, I'm lucky to have good connections to image sensor manufacturers,... The proposed sensor isn't released yet (still under NDA, sorry for this), it's intended for a different application. The decision of going into mass production is expected to be made this summer.

I'm asking whether there would be enough potential customers for such a device. Maybe I have to start a separate survey?

-ccdfreak

[Surfturkey]

I made an account just to add to this thread, so I hope it helps!

I have a Sony a5000 and I use the playmemories mobile remote app. I recently updated the app on my camera and it supports BULB mode. 

When I just used it after reading this thread about LENR being a problem for taking star trails, I tried it and the app notified me that LENR is switched off in BULB mode when using the app as a remote. I just managed to get star trails on around a 5 minute exposure and t was instantly available and came out well apart from the annoying haze tonight. 

Anyhow, it is possible and I hope this is useful info for some of you!