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Bart

Horeshead - a question

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Hello all

I have a hankering to get the Horsehead.

I have reasonably dark skies NELM 5.6 and a 16" LB. I know it's difficult to get. I'll need a good dark night with good transparency for sure. Maybe it's a no go.

But I wondered if a UHC would help or do I need a h-beta filter if I'm ever to get it from home?

Should I just forget it and hope to get to a very dark site?

Any comments welcome and thanks in advance

Barry

Barry

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Hello Barry

I have seen the HH with a 16" Dob but was using an Astronomik H.Beta filter.

Dave Knisely from the Prairie Astronomy Club wrote this about the HH with different filters. With his 10" he could make out the HH with a UHC filter. I must admit with my 10" I could never see it with either a UHC or H.Beta.

Good luck

post-1628-0-25491400-1421959498.jpg

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Thanks for that Mark, I'll try the UHC the next night. Might have save for the H beta though

Barry

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Hello all

I have a hankering to get the Horsehead.

I have reasonably dark skies NELM 5.6 and a 16" LB. I know it's difficult to get. I'll need a good dark night with good transparency for sure. Maybe it's a no go.

But I wondered if a UHC would help or do I need a h-beta filter if I'm ever to get it from home?

Should I just forget it and hope to get to a very dark site?

Any comments welcome and thanks in advance

Barry

Barry

Good day Bart, I guess it all depends on your interpretation of "get the Horsehead". I assume you mean photograph, not visual. This is my first widefield attempt at the Horshead and Flame Nebulae earlier this month. No special equipment, 80mm scope, unmodded camera. I would have thought that with your scope it would be possible to get just the Horsehead.

post-34685-0-17056000-1421961651_thumb.j

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Good day Bart, I guess it all depends on your interpretation of "get the Horsehead". I assume you mean photograph, not visual. This is my first widefield attempt at the Horshead and Flame Nebulae earlier this month. No special equipment, 80mm scope, unmodded camera. I would have thought that with your scope it would be possible to get just the Horsehead.

attachicon.gifFlame and Horsehead Nebula 11012015 C.jpg

I think visual observation is the aim here. Nice image though :smiley:

Barry: I believe that the Orion Ultrablock filter has been used as an alternative to a dedicated H-Beta and may help you spot it with your 16" under really dark transparent skies. The Ultrablock is a UHC-type filter which has a good % pass in the O-III line. Using an eyepiece that generates a really efficient exit pupil seems to be important too. My tools for this job will range from an 18mm orthoscopic to the 25mm Tele Vue plossl. All have high light transmission and a narrowish field of view to keep distracting bright stars out of the picture. My filter is the Lumicon H-Beta.

No luck for me with the HH with my 12" dob as yet but my skies rarely get really dark.

Good luck with this one ! :smiley:

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I think visual observation is the aim here. Nice image though :smiley:

Barry: I believe that the Orion Ultrablock filter has been used as an alternative to a dedicated H-Beta and may help you spot it with your 16" under really dark transparent skies. The Ultrablock is a UHC-type filter which has a good % pass in the O-III line. Using an eyepiece that generates a really efficient exit pupil seems to be important too. My tools for this job will range from an 18mm orthoscopic to the 25mm Tele Vue plossl. All have high light transmission and a narrowish field of view to keep distracting bright stars out of the picture. My filter is the Lumicon H-Beta.

No luck for me with the HH with my 12" dob as yet but my skies rarely get really dark.

Good luck with this one ! :smiley:

Thanks, and OK I stand corrected.  :smiley:

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Yes, sorry Dave, should have been more specific, but I meant visual actually. Cheers for the contribution.

John

Thanks for that. Sounds like I need an Ultrablock or a H beta. And the perfect night, astronomically speaking[emoji8]

Thanks gents

Barry

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John

Following on from your post. Actually thinking aloud, and, of course, hypothetically, if I was to use the 50* BCO 18mm in the 16", I'd guess this would only need a 1.25" h beta or Ultrablock rather than needing a 2" with a wider field EP.

Barry

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I'm sceptical about filters. I've 'seen' it unfiltered, and filtered in H Beta and UHC. I'd say that the H Beta was marginally the best as is widely reported. However, here's an alternative approach to this problem...

http://home.ix.netcom.com/~bwilson2/barbarasweb/MEyepiece.htm

I put 'seen' in inverted commas because I've never really seen it. I've seen, just about, maybe, an oblong notch in what might just have been nebulosity. If we had never had cameras would anybody ever have called it the Horsehead? I think not. In a sense, even when 'seen' visually, it remains a photographic object whose presence can be inferred visually. That doesn't mean it isn't a buzz (far from it) but don't expect to see a horse's head.

Olly

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Olly

Excellent point. I did mean to ask a question you've just answered. I guessed if I did manage it visually, all I'd see I a vague darkish indent in the bright nebula. Good point

So I'm not going to see a knight from a chess set?[emoji22]

Barry

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John

Following on from your post. Actually thinking aloud, and, of course, hypothetically, if I was to use the 50* BCO 18mm in the 16", I'd guess this would only need a 1.25" h beta or Ultrablock rather than needing a 2" with a wider field EP.

Barry

I went for a 1.25" H-Beta filter for this reason. The Orion Ultrablock is a much more versatile filter though so a 2" version of that one would be justified if you have or intend to have 2" eyepieces.

I usually prefer to view deep sky onject unfiltered but in some cases, and I have a feeling the HH is one with me having a 12" scope, a filter is worthwhile.

I'm not expecting any recognisable shape visually - just a slightly darker patch in a very faint ribbon of nebulosity which itself is on the limit of visibibility. I love Jeremy Perez's description: "it's like trying to see a little bit of nothing with a little bit of less than nothing resting over it" :smiley:

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I have an Orion Ultrablock and may purchase a Lumicon or Astronomik UHC at some point. It may be best to pay a little more for a consistently good quality product.

Good luck with your pursuit Barry :smiley:

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I'm not going to see a knight from a chess set?[emoji22]Barry

Not unless you go somewhere really dark.

My sole observation of it was from a medium dark site (VLM 6). This site is in the South East of Engkand and within 100 miles of london, so is not LP free by any stretch. Conditions were far from perfect too, with some moisture and fine haze about. I know this as some of the galaxies I observed that night were old friends and I've seen them a lot better.

I confirmed the horse head shape with some difficulty but it was there, and not averted imagination.

From a proper dark site and transparent conditions.........chess piece here we come.

Ps if it was just a dark notch I wouldn't have claimed to have seen the horse head. I saw a horses head.

Also, it's a lot bigger than you think. Don't think notch, think bay. The notch description is what you'd see through a small scope in a large Dob it's pretty big. Lastly, don't worry about eyepiece selection too much either, I saw it in three different eyepieces. It was best through a 20mm Nagler but my 31mm and a buddies 27mm pan also picked it out without too much difficulty.

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Hi

From my experience, I think that you will be pushing it (a lot) under mag.5.6 skies, even with a 16".

I think all my observations have been 6+ and on very transparent nights.

H beta is the best filter however the standard UHCs have OIII and Hbeta band passes and bring out more than filter free attempts.

Eyepieces, pick one that keeps the brightest stars out of the FOV.

I found it to be the size I expected.  Not big or small.

Under marginal conditions all you realise is that there is an area where you are consistently 'not' seeing nebulosity.

My best view was through a 24" with an H beta from the Caldera on Tenerife, it was a black chess piece on a white background :)

Good luck and very clear skies.

Cheers

Paul

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Just a big gap through a 20" from a very dark site. Now I know where it is I will try for it more often..... With other kit, no space for a huge dob at home unfortunately!

PEterW

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Not unless you go somewhere really dark.

My sole observation of it was from a medium dark site (VLM 6). This site is in the South East of Engkand and within 100 miles of london, so is not LP free by any stretch. Conditions were far from perfect too, with some moisture and fine haze about. I know this as some of the galaxies I observed that night were old friends and I've seen them a lot better.

I confirmed the horse head shape with some difficulty but it was there, and not averted imagination.

From a proper dark site and transparent conditions.........chess piece here we come.

Ps if it was just a dark notch I wouldn't have claimed to have seen the horse head. I saw a horses head.

Also, it's a lot bigger than you think. Don't think notch, think bay. The notch description is what you'd see through a small scope in a large Dob it's pretty big. Lastly, don't worry about eyepiece selection too much either, I saw it in three different eyepieces. It was best through a 20mm Nagler but my 31mm and a buddies 27mm pan also picked it out without too much difficulty.

I'm impressed that you saw a horse head shape. I never have (SQM 21.9, 20 inch) but I don't have great eyesight.  Poor would be a better desription! And, yes, it is quite large, something well worth pointing out.

Olly

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I've yet to see it but I've come to know the patterns of stars where the HH lies rather well in my attempts to spot it. Once you know the stars that frame the object you can get a good idea of it's extent. The challenge is to stop an over-eager mind from filling in the blank through "averted-imagination" :rolleyes2:

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I have seen it from home a few times with my 16 inch dob and Astronomik h-beta filter under okay skies. At home I can just about see the Milky Way, not as good as Lucksall (where I first saw the HH, with Mark at the SGL star party) by some way, a few street lights shining into the garden etc. I've had no joy on the HH with an OIII filter, don't think I tried UHC. So far I've had best view from home using a Delos 14mm or 17.3mm with a 0.5x reducer! Works better for me than a 25mm or 32mm Plossl.

It's obvious I suppose, but make sure your eyepiece is nice and clean! :embarassed:

Edited by Luke
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Thanks for the comments and help.

I still laugh when I hear the term 'averted imagination'

Barry

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Notch seen with 80mm from a garden where I use the streetlights to read my charts. I have a special "Sharpless eyepiece", best used with fast optic, narrow hydrogen alpha filter, extra rg630 "light pollution" filtration and a good flocked shield. At a dark site we can go after many other nebulae: angelfish anyone?

Cheers

Peter

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I also wouldn't try to see it at 5.6 NELM sky.

By the way I had more luck with an Ultrablock filter, but I had ~6.8 NELM and only 10" of aperture.

Maybe 16" collects enough light for H-beta to be effective.

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Last night the sky was excellent, 21.7 SQM and 4.5/5 transparency. I arrived to the quarry after the moonset and Orion was getting low in the sky but I thought I'd just take a peak at the Flame and IC434 anyway. 

The Flame was weak and zero signs of IC434.

The sky last night was actually better than when I saw the HH notch, so this goes to show how important viewing things up as high as they can be really is, crucial IMO.

On the bright side, many galaxies were seen in UMA, Leo and Coma- I just love the Needle galaxy.

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