Rossetta to land on comet... good or bad ???

[jamespels]

* bites tongue *

Yes, let's look forward to the landing and see what happens tonight! Will definitely be on here discussing with whoever is around for as long as I am awake

[symesie04]

Dont worry i dont think you have unleashed politics or religion at any point of your posts.

I guess it may be a point of view. But i see it like this development of technology is merely an extension of our evolution. I recently saw an article about how jackdaws were waiting to be fed bread by lunchtime revellers in a park. But instead of eating the bread they were taking it to a fountain and placing it in the water and then grabbing the unfortunate fish that were coming for the free meal. Now normally the fish would be "out of the jackdaws reach" but it has evolved the intelligence to make use of its surroundings. Some may say its all wrong that the jackdaw is fishing but i see it as a natural progression of evolution, and if it evolves that ability then use it. So the same applies to us, if we have evolved the intelligence to produce technology that aloows us to land on comets then so be it. Its part of our natural evolution. But i guess the big question is do we understand the consequences of our actions. Yes we can clone animals but i dont think the question is directly should we. I htink the question is do we understand the consequences of doing so. For instance if we cloned a animal that has become extinct in a certain area for a long period and the reintorduce it do we understand the imapct it may have on the current animal population. If we fully understand and feel there are benefits to the natural environment then surely the answer is we should. But will we ever understand? However the comets trajectory I think they understand.

[goodricke1]

Without being political.i believe the H-Bomb,horric as it is,has kept World Peace since WW11,and has allowed my generation and I believe future generations to live in peace.

So if everyone walked around with guns, society would be a safer place? What a crazy argument

[Paul M]

I have a certain respect for the OP's position.

My own view is that, like Everest, it's a challenge that can't be overlooked.

Whether or not landing a probe on a comet will enhance the future of humanity remains to be seen. Testing the technology is certainly very exciting and interesting and I'm not worried that it will have any negative consequences for us either.

There have been a few encounters with comets now and the science has come on in leaps and bounds. I remember watching the live coverage of Giotto's encounter with Halley with great excitement. But I also feel that our knowledge has robbed us of some of the magic of comets.

It's impossible to look at a comet now without calling on this knowledge. We can explain just about every aspect of the appearance of a comet.

But imagine how it must have felt a few hundred years ago when a great comet crossed the sky.

The beauty would have been enhanced by the mysterious nature of the visitor. 

Perhaps, as something of a romantic^*, occasionally I'd rather experience something that touched my soul rather than dissect it with cold science...

* I was going to use the word "spiritual" but my intended meaning would have been misconstrued!

[jonathan]

Man eliminated wolves, they used to control the deer population, now deer are causing immense damage to the natural environment because their main predator was eliminated by man, thus we cull deer (and people get all uppity when we do things like that).  That's Man shaping his environment to suit his needs, nobody could have really foreseen the consequences at the time (or their voice was not heard).

I've just been to see Interstellar at the cinema, an epic film which I would recommend to anyone.  As far as this topic goes, the film is about Man reaching out into the void and definitely doing a lot more than putting a tiny lander on a comet.  I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but I think there are a few key story points in the film that really put things like this comet lander into perspective.

[astro mick]

So if everyone walked around with guns, society would be a safer place? What a crazy argument

I,m not saying I like it,far from it,but I do believe it makes leaders think twice before they act,look at the Cuba incident back in the sixties.

What we are doing in space is great,and would love to see even further missions to to the planets and beyond,and if I am correct a spacecraft has already been directed into an Asteroid/Comet,with no apparent effect to its orbit.

We are part of this universe,so lets go and explore.

Mick.

[Moonshane]

(paraphrasing as far as I remember, Carl Sagan) future space craft will overtake past spacecraft but this does not mean it is pointless to build the first ones. they are essential parts of the development of the future crafts which could not have been built without the lessons they gave.

progress is progress.

[davedownsouth]

I am hoping that just before it touches down a lazer gun will poke up and shoot it.  How cool would that be .

[spaceboy]

We are part of this universe,so lets go and explore.

Mick.

I can't help but think this is the part of human nature that never stops to think. The part that says it's our universe and we will do as we please. We can't be 100% sure we are the only life or at least life as we know it yet we feel as though we have the right to treat everything as if we own it. Probably going to be yet another poor example but....... we have moved from dumping rubbish every where on the planet to dumping it in space to now wanting to dump it further a field. It's ok though as it's in the name of science.

This is probably going off topic slightly but I hear the argument we are intelligent and this is how we are able to reach out to the edges of space. Yet here we are probably the only life in existence and we can't seem to stop killing each other. I may be wrong but that to me doesn't seem intelligent. I don't think it is intelligent to chop down trees either but that's another thing.

[Scott]

I can't help but think this is the part of human nature that never stops to think. The part that says it's our universe and we will do as we please. We can't be 100% sure we are the only life or at least life as we know it yet we feel as though we have the right to treat everything as if we own it. Probably going to be yet another poor example but....... we have moved from dumping rubbish every where on the planet to dumping it in space to now wanting to dump it further a field. It's ok though as it's in the name of science.

This is probably going off topic slightly but I hear the argument we are intelligent and this is how we are able to reach out to the edges of space. Yet here we are probably the only life in existence and we can't seem to stop killing each other. I may be wrong but that to me doesn't seem intelligent. I don't think it is intelligent to chop down trees either but that's another thing.

I think you and I are reading different posts .

Astromick said we are part of the universe, He didn't say it was ours to do with what we please.

I don't think it's human nature to act without thought. I'm sure there's a great deal of thought/research/debate that goes on before any action is taken. 

one does not need to have a superiority complex or think they "own" the universe to have the right to explore it. We are as a species totally unable to haveany effect on the universe (at the moment) outside our own solar system and even that is predominantly around our own rock. and when I say our, I'm not making any claims of ownership. merely pointing out that it's where we live

[Cath]

Don't worry about it spaceboy, it's all relative.

Whatever effect we may have off planet (or even on planet) something much more invasive will always come along at some point (it's guaranteed to do so) and do a far far better job of it than we ever could

Sure, we are making a right old mess of things at times, unfortunately that's how we are as a species.

Any chance that comes along that can help with our learning we ort to take really, not because it's going to change the future but because it's interesting to do so. It's either that or do nothing much else with our time here apart from exist, wheres the fun in that?

If we mess things up then so be it, we mess things up, the universe will continue on it's merry way quite happily without us. The universe is never going to do us any favors anyway, we're on our own, it's down right dangerous out there too, so we may as well do what ever it is we want to do and try to get something from it.

[Marki]

Without being political.i believe the H-Bomb,horric as it is,has kept World Peace since WW11,and has allowed my generation and I believe future generations to live in peace.

I count myself very lucky to have being born post WW11.

Mick.

P.S. Lets go land on the comet.(Cant wait).

Can't let that pass....how many people have died in assorted wars around the planet during this "World Peace" since the first A-bomb was tested in 1945?

Back on topic, I'm really interested to see how the landing goes. I think human's will continue to do this sort of thing (at least, I hope so), without much thought for the consequences, unintended or otherwise. It's one of the things that makes us human, I suppose.

Anyone read the Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson? Some quite interesting arguments about the rights and wrongs of terraforming Mars are explored by the characters in those books. And who knows, hopefully one day we'll have to face these decisions as a species for real.

[astro mick]

Can't let that pass....how many people have died in assorted wars around the planet during this "World Peace" since the first A-bomb was tested in 1945?

Back on topic, I'm really interested to see how the landing goes. I think human's will continue to do this sort of thing (at least, I hope so), without much thought for the consequences, unintended or otherwise. It's one of the things that makes us human, I suppose.

Anyone read the Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson? Some quite interesting arguments about the rights and wrongs of terraforming Mars are explored by the characters in those books. And who knows, hopefully one day we'll have to face these decisions as a species for real.

Marki.

In answer to your question,i don't know.Yes there are still wars going on on this Planet,it seems to be inherent sadly of Human nature,and yes a lot of people have been killed.But nothing thankfully on the scale of the two World Wars where millions were killed,on all sides.

I still say that since 1945 the World has seen a relatively stable period,especially in the West.

I do believe that Nuclear weapons have brought about this stability,even as I have said that the use of them is unthinkable.

We do not live in fear of conscription,or being called up at some ridiculous age to go fight for the country,and for that we have been very lucky.

My last post on this subject.

Mick.

[Ruud]

I'm watching the ESA webcast: http://new.livestream.com/ESA/cometlanding

[Kropster]

It is possible, that by landing on the comet and thereby perturbing its orbit, we are actually deflecting it away from colliding with Earth in the distant future.

Hurrah for ESA... Saviours of The Earth!

[DeepSkyBagger]

I'm watching the ESA webcast: http://new.livestream.com/ESA/cometlanding

I'm getting into the groove of that funky Euro lounge-music they're playing in the background. 

[jamespels]

It is possible, that by landing on the comet and thereby perturbing its orbit, we are actually deflecting it away from colliding with Earth in the distant future.

Hurrah for ESA... Saviours of The Earth!

Can't let this one go, sorry! Rosetta / Philae are currently in orbit around 67P so the the objects firm a single, gravitationally bound, system. Any changes to 67P's orbit happened during Rosetta's initial capture.

From here on, so long as there is no EXTERNAL influence, nothing Rosetta or Philae do will have any future impact on this systems orbit around the sun. If Rosetta fires thrusters, this is an external influence as it is applying a force to one element rather than the whole; passing Philae from Rosetta to 67P is not going to change the overall system momentum so it does not count.

There is a caveat that Rosetta's orbital manoeuvrings are effectively an external influence but these are almost negligible in scale.

Rant over, and fully prepared to have somebody rip my physics apart so long as it helps me unwarranted it better!

[skybadger]

It the lander will change the zilnyaev effect (no idea if that's its real name), where the surface reflectivity has a long term effect on the orbit.

[sbooder]

http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/

Needless to say this isn't new news to most in the astronomy community but I can't help but think it is one of those playing "GOD" moments when we are interfering with things that arguably were supposed to be beyond our reach.

I believe that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Who is saying that landing on this comet isn't going to in the vacuum of space have some influence on the comet destined path through time and space causing ripples along the way. 

Why should anything be out of our reach?

[Jim Steele]

Landing on the comet is a good thing as is pushing the bounds of science. One day we might need to deflect a comet or asteroid to avoid being hit and mass extinction wiping us out. Playing god or survival of the fittest? Personally I would rather not become extinct which ultimately is why we need to reach for the stars.

There can be no doubt that the h bomb is a bad thing but without it we might never have harnessed the power of the atom for power generation. We need nuclear fission, and ultimately fusion power to prevent our reliance on fossil fuel which is killing the planet. Without pushing the boundarys of science all this and our great civilisation would not have been possible.

[jamespels]

It the lander will change the zilnyaev effect (no idea if that's its real name), where the surface reflectivity has a long term effect on the orbit.

True, but I reckon it is quite a lot less than the effect of the manoeuvring thrusters which I have already dismissed!

[spaceboy]

Why should anything be out of our reach?

Would you not agree it is beyond our physical reach ? Yes we have the capability to extend our reach mechanically but as I have said in previous posts that this is not always for the best. My reference to the H bomb was an example of genius that brought about a ripple that future generations may suffer.

There can be no doubt that the h bomb is a bad thing but without it we might never have harnessed the power of the atom for power generation. We need nuclear fission, and ultimately fusion power to prevent our reliance on fossil fuel which is killing the planet. Without pushing the boundarys of science all this and our great civilisation would not have been possible.

In my opinion this is yet another example of human nature failing to consider consequence. Our reliance on fossil fuel which is killing the planet. And as for harnessing the power of the atom we only need to look at Chernobyl and Sellafield to understand this is not the way forward. I read some where that we all have a mutation in us (odd gene or something) as a result of all the nuclear tests that have been done over the years. (I will try to find the article as it makes for a good read)

BTW I don't want everyone to think that I am Borg and I am here to assimilate    

[sbooder]

Sorry but the Atom Bomb was developed to beat an enemy in Europe to it.  The decision to drop it twice on Hiroshima and Nagasaki when the war was over in Europe was a political decision not a scientific one.

Posting on this forum without a PC or other communications device is beyond our physical reach so where do we draw the line at what is permissible with all our human inadequacies?

Yes we make mistakes but we are not born with a big book of science under our arms with the answer to everything, we have to discover, and sometimes it has consequences for the worse, but for the most part they are for the better.

Without advancement in knowledge and technology we would still be letting blood to cure Smallpox.

[Macavity]

I'm getting into the groove of that funky Euro lounge-music they're playing in the background. 

All really rather cool, innit? Calm, dignified - No rubber-necks!

Latest: The fat controller reporting folks have gone to lunch now.

Possible images of descent in next hour(s)? Hi-Res stuff later?

I gather there might be problems with the engine that holds Philae

in place when / if the harpoons are fired? But, even if it crashes

(nooo!) or bounces, we should see down to centimetre scales...

[DeepSkyBagger]

I gather there might be problems with the engine that holds Philae

in place when / if the harpoons are fired? But, even if it crashes

(nooo!) or bounces, we should see down to centimetre scales...

It seems that the thrusters are non-operational, so a successful capture will have to depend on the screws and harpoons.

Crossing everything!