Binoviewer - Baader or WO?

[Michael11]

I can't decide between William optics binoviewer and Baader maxbright.

The Baader costs almost tiwce as much (if I acount for eyepieces and the barlow). It offers slightly larger 23mm aperture (versus 20mm), and slightly fancier eyepiece holders.

But does it really worth paying for it so much? Did anyone compare those in terms of image brightness? 

[JED-E3]

Hi, I've got both binoviewers you've mentioned and I would say they're both equally good, Build quality is about the same.

The Baaders are potentially more versatile being directly compatible with the 'T-2 system' and have a slightly larger aperture allowing for potentially wider eyepiece views (not brighter views)

What scope do you intend to use them with?  

If you have any specific questions about the differences I can tell you but don't buy the Baader Maxbrights thinking you're getting superior optics, they're almost certainly made on the same factory production lines.

James.

[Chris]

I've just sold my WO BV's as I've been informed that I would need to use a 1.25 diagonal with them on my C8 and they would cut out about an inch in aperture. I was told that the maxbrights would allow a shorter light path thus lower available magnification and they would utilize the full aperture so I will get them at some point.

Might be worth bearing in mind if you plan on using them with an sct or mak? I was told this by someone really into his binoviewer but it wouldn't hurt to get it confirmed :-)

[Michael11]

I`ll go for the William Optics then, if optical quality is the same. I`m planning to use them in f/5 Newtonian with a long back focus, with 1.6x compensator there will be no problem. 

Will I get much Vignetting with the stock 20mm 66 deg eyepieces? 

Another question: does the stock 1.6x barlow/corrector have filter threads?

To Chris - the optical path in WO is 100mm and in Baader 110mm - I can`t understand how will the Baader allow using lower power? It can be true if you are able to focus with their 1.25x compensator. Otherwise it is the 1.7x one, which is more then WO 1.6x

[Chris]

I think it might be because the overall optical path is suppose to be shorter because you can use the T2 connection of the maxbrights to connect direct to a 10mm adaptor at the back of the sct so you don't have to include an adaptor plus diagonal into the light path. Also I think he mentioned the 1.25x adaptor.

The chap emailed me a ful explanation so if you wanted to I can copy and paste it :-) it's one area of astronomy that I'm not 100 percent on so this advice is based on one person's opinion although he did seem like a binoviewer fanatic :-D

I think you will be very happy with the WO's and a newt though, they worked very well with my old 200p dob at high power using the 1.6x :-)

Let us know how you get on :-)

[Michael11]

Ok

last thing - I'll probably get another 2x or 2.6x nosepiece for planetary work. but which additional set of eyepieces to get? I was thinking about getting a pair of ES 6.7mm. But I'm not sure if 82 degree eyepiece will work well in this Bino.

[Northern Soul man]

HI Michael, I have the WO Binoviewers and use them with my 11" SCT, mainly Planetary/Luna, check out the binoviewer section on Cloudy Nights - there seems to be an awful lot of maths and formulae involved and I think that most would try to use the smallest light path - but to be honest - I haven't bothered with all the maths and formulae regarding increased focal length when they are added - but as said, I only use them for Planetary/Luna - they just work very well, at F10, I just use the stock 20mm WO Plossls, a pair of Meade 4000 Super Plossls and the supplied x 1.6 Barlow (they all came in a nice neat box (not the Meade's)).

I think there are problems using wide angle EP'S due to vignetting- but I think this is only with the >60 degrees, the stock EP's are very nice - nice and small to keep the weight down on the back of the scope, excellent eye placement - due to their small size, with the Meades equally as nice, the stock 20mm with the x 1.6 Barlow were just about perfect on Jupiter this last opposition.

Just a point watch the higher Mags - using around the effective 12mm focal length at F10 with the stock 20mm, which gives me just over x200 are a fantastic balance between image brightness and really nice teased out detail on the Jovian disk - using 2 eyes instead of 1 bring a much better and relaxing experience, feeling more than solid in the 2" Diagonal and not too heavy as to make the whole unit with the EP's in the diagonal feel a little "unsteady" when moving the unit "around" in the diagonal for optimum viewing.

Not sue how they will work in your set up - the Barlow is threaded for filters - for me - I find a slightly lower power view to compensate for a nominal drop in light due to the path being split, but using 2 eyes seems to "increase" detail over mono view - I know this is not the case but I must say that I will never go back to mono for Planetary again.

There are, as you say, much more expensive units available like the Baader and the Denk systems, but the change in perception for me in such a "cheap" introduction to Binoviewing with the well made, compact and nice quality WO's unit, makes them a winner for me.

Paul.

[Mark in Macc]

I use the WO binoviewers in my C9.25 and think the quality of the view is excellent. This type of system will increase the focal length of a SCT as you will need to change the position of the primary mirror to achieve focus, often by a considerable amount. I use my binos for lunar and planetary observing and as such, it doesn't really matter that the focal length has increased. I use 2" mono eyepieces for wider field objects.

[Michael11]

Thanks, I already decided to get the WO. Ill post here when I get them

[Pingster]

Great choice they are fantastic for their price.

If you love binoviewing then invest in the Baader Mrk5, they are fantastic and will give you about 25% sharpness improvement. You wont look back.

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[Michael11]

If you love binoviewing then invest in the Baader Mrk5, You wont look back.

If I buy those (1800$) - I will have to look back at my wife chasing me with a frying pan ...

[Pingster]

Dont you mean a shotgun? [emoji16]

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[Michael11]

Ordered those.

Now for the high powers - I have calculated that I got 2 options (assuming my 2.5x powermate will work): 

To get another 2.6x nosepiece, and use the stock 20mm eyepieces for highest powers, or instead buy a set of 12.5mm eyepieces (such as william optics SPL).

Which would work better?

in any case im ending with approximately the following power options: 96x, 153x, 240x, 380x (can get 300x as well with 2X barlow, if it works)

[Pingster]

What bino are you using. Personally for all my binos i use the noose pieces first that come with then for extra mag, then i prefer to use a TV powermate. I find the PM is amazingly sharp.

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[Michael11]

Not using yet - But I ordered the William optics one. Good to know that it works well with a PM.

[AndrewP]

Any update on this Michael, I'm very tempted by the WO unit myself so interested in your thoughts.

[F15Rules]

I've owned WO binoviewers and now have just bought a Baader Maxbright. So far I've only been able to have a daylight view in the Maxbright.

I think both are of good quality. I wanted to use them in my 5" F15 refractor, but I had two big issues... 

Firstly, the one that most people comment on, lack of in focus without using a barlow. It's worse with my refractor as it's already got a long1905mm focal length, which means high magnification with even medium focal length eyepieces - so I really don't want to have to use a barlow to come to focus. So, I've bitten the bullet and sent my scope tube to Moonraker to have 130mm chopped off the end! This will allow me to use my Baaders in my 2" diagonal with no need for a barlow and so I can use longer FL eyepieces for lower magnification. A pair of 26mm plossls will give me about x78 which is still not exactly low magnification.  For cyclops viewing my Moonlite focuser has good out travel, but if I need it to get focus with wide angle 2" eps I'll just use an extension tube.

Secondly, and related to the first problem: use of wider field eyepieces...this is where the Baader scores..as it has a 23mm aperture instead of the WO 20mm, I should be able to go up to around 30mm or even 32mm focal length eps without significant vignetting of the field. A 32mm, 60 deg FL eyepiece would give me a true field of c1 degree and a magnification of about x59, about as good as I can get with this setup. The WO would probably be limited to a maximum 26mm FL eyepiece, which, if 60 deg afov and x73 mag would give me only a 0.82 degree true field of view...so the Baader should allow me to see about 20% more sky, a worthwhile increase in my view.

I know the WO comes with barlow and 2 eps..I found the barlow ineffective, but the eyepieces very good -(does anyone know if these, or clones of these are for sale anywhere to purchase just as eyepieces?). It is good value, no doubt about that. I was lucky to find a brand new Baader at a very good price, but I've decided to invest in a few pairs of eyepieces to use with the Baaders, and these are:

Celestron Ultima Japan 12.5mm

Takahashi LE 18mm

Bresser (Meade 4000) Super Plossl 26mm

A N Other to be confirmed 30-32mm

I think the above should give me a good spread of magnifications from 152x for the Ultimas (which I can increase with my Baader x2.25 barlow to x342 on good nights) down to x73 for the 26mm Plossls and down to x59 if I can find a couple of nice 32mm plossls.

I'm also having my scope tube re-baffled and repainted so I'll put up a report once I've got the whole set up sorted and first lighted...

Dave

[Adrian]

Secondly, and related to the first problem: use of wider field eyepieces...this is where the Baader scores..as it has a 23mm aperture instead of the WO 20mm, I should be able to go up to around 30mm or even 32mm focal length eps without significant vignetting of the field. A 32mm, 60 deg FL eyepiece would give me a true field of c1 degree and a magnification of about x59, about as good as I can get with this setup. The WO would probably be limited to a maximum 26mm FL eyepiece, which, if 60 deg afov and x73 mag would give me only a 0.82 degree true field of view...so the Baader should allow me to see about 20% more sky, a worthwhile increase in my view.

Dave

Hi Dave - I think your calculations may be a little off here: a 32mm 60 degree eyepiece is a 2" eyepiece.  Likewise, the 26mm super plossl (60 degree) will have a 27.2mm field stop, so is likely to show vignetting in binoviewers.

My BVs are around 23mm clear aperture and I get a slight vignetting with the 20mm Maxvisions (approx 23.7mm field stop) and none with the 25mm plossls (approx 22.7mm field stop).

The simplest approximation for field stop is (eyepiece focal length x AFOV)/57.296. Conversely 57.296 x 23mm clear aperture gives 1318. Divide this by the focal length eyepiece you want and the max AFOV will be given (or divide by AFOV for max focal length).

I find (eyepiece focal length x AFOV) a useful tool - it gives a direct comparison for true FOV between eyepieces of different AFOV; in fact, to find the TFOV, just divide this figure ("focal field"?) by the scope's focal length. From the above, the maximum TFOV with 23mm clear aperture binoviewers would be 1318/1905 = 0.69 degrees.

Adrian

[F15Rules]

Hi Adrian

Thanks for the corrections:-)..so, using your methods what would the difference in available fov be between the 23mm Baaders and the 20mm WO binoviewers?

I haven't yet had a chance to use the Baaders with my F15 refractor as yet so it will be interesting to see how they work under the stars..

Dave

[F15Rules]

Hi again Adrian, also, what about the Tele Vue 24mm Panoptic, which is a 1.25" eyepiece with a stated 68deg apparent field and is often touted as great for binoviewers...would that also vignette according to your calculations?

Thanks for any further clarifications you can give..

Dave

[Adrian]

Hi Dave

 

I thought it was the 19mm panoptics that are stated as the best for binoviewers (21.3mm field stop per Teleview) - I would expect the 24mms to vignette as the field stop is the maximum in 1.25" at 27mm. The maxbrights seem to be 23mm at the front and 21mm at the eyepiece side, similar to most 1.25" BVs. 

 

20mm x 57.269 / 1905mm = 0.60 degrees true FOV, compared to 0.69 degrees

 

For the actual maximum FOV there are other factors at play - The steepness of the light cone (focal ratio) and how the focal planes line up can match up the narrow part of the cone with the narrow part of the BVs. But generally, if you put a 23mm ring in front of an eyepiece with a 27mm field stop, the ring will act as a smaller field stop and narrow the apparent FOV. This matches my experience: my 24mm maxvision vignettes significantly, the 20mms slightly vignette (like the field stop has gone fuzzy, but only on one side due to slight misalignments of field stops). A 19mm 68* eyepiece wouldn't vignette at all, hence the popularity of the panoptics (and 19mm 65* flat field eyepieces).

I am always ready to be wrong, though  

Adrian

[Michael11]

Still haven't got them.

Regarding the barlow - you should always use the supplied one - since it is also designed to reduce chromatic aberration introduced by the prisms.

[Mark in Macc]

Worth checking how far the supplied Barlow sticks out from the end of the binos if you are using a diagonal. I'm not sure if mine would touch the mirror. I don't use mine and have opted for eyepiece pairs.

[Altitude]

I just got mine WO Binoviewer. Could not wait to try it on my Newtonian 6", f/5, 750mm F/L telescope.

Well...With the supplied 1.6 X barlow I could only see a huge donut of my two mirrors... Is it so badly not reaching the focus? Not sure if I am doing something wrong. If I need a 2 x. Barlow and it will work, that's fine. But what if the 2 x barlow will be not enough?...

What a disappointment...

[SkyGibbon]

I just got mine WO Binoviewer. Could not wait to try it on my Newtonian 6", f/5, 750mm F/L telescope.

Well...With the supplied 1.6 X barlow I could only see a huge donut of my two mirrors... Is it so badly not reaching the focus? Not sure if I am doing something wrong. If I need a 2 x. Barlow and it will work, that's fine. But what if the 2 x barlow will be not enough?...

What a disappointment...

You can try a few things.

Low profile 1.25 adapter. Low profile focuser. Use extension on nosepiece, bringing barlow closer to the secondary. Move mirror farther up tube. Use a stronger barlow.