Choosing the first telescope: Heritage 130 or Virtuoso

[Schorhr]

Hi,

Great to hear you found Albireo!

It is a nice double star, yesterday it looked best in my 8mm eyepiece as the color was the nicest under the given conditions.

I have basically made the same observation tour you did, between 2 and 3am or so, yesterday from my balcony. Lot's of lights and the moon, plus the limited view from the balcony, made it pretty frustrating.

It helps a lot when the whole sky is visible to orient yourself, and without the moon, objects are easier to find and see.

See a few quick pictures from yesterday (technically, this morning...)

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/?p=910

Cygnus showed only a few stars, the constellation next to it was completely invisible, making it hard to locate objects.

Lyra stars where very faint, indirect vision (not looking at them directly, plus slightly moving your head) helped.

If only the brighter stars are visible, it helps to aim for m27 with the low-magnification eyepiece by starting at the ring nebula.

Imagine a line from the bottom of Lyra/ring nebula to albireo, and extend the line further to find m27. I hope you understand what I am trying to say :-D

Under these conditions both nebula are verrrry faint. The dumbbell was closer to the moon and even harder to spot, I almost missed it.

Trust me, when it's darker, those objects are impossible to miss, even though finding them your first time with new equipment can be the main challange. After finding them your first time, you will never need a map again and laugh about how you could ever miss them in the first place...

My "first ring nebula" took me 30 minutes as I just did not know what I had to look for, much like you now. We all have been there. After one or two successful observation of objects you kind of get a sense for scale, what to look for and frustration is blown away. And always have a "plan b", if you can't find something, observe something you already know for practice and to avoid wanting to throw the telescope down the balcony ;-)

In the 25x, it almost looks like when a star is just slightly off focus, but no matter how carefully you try to focus, all the stars next to it are sharp, small dots, the ring nebula looks like a faint blurry star.

With 8-12mm it already looks like a tiny ring. If light pollution is an issue, the darker center might be less obvious.

Also, collimation should be at least half way decent, but it would have to be realllllllly off to now show something with the 10mm or 25mm.

The best would be for you to check in Stellarium and set up eyepiece and telescope. It will be over realistic as it uses color images, but great to estimate the size and magnification you can expect.

OR try here (great tool but the surrounding stars are missing, so it's hard to get a feel of scale)

25mm Kit eyepiece

http://www.12dstring.me.uk/foveyepiece.php?aperture=130&flength=650&barlow=1&efl=25&afov=50&day=17&month=6&year=2014&object=57

10mm kit eyepiece

http://www.12dstring.me.uk/foveyepiece.php?aperture=130&flength=650&barlow=1&efl=10&afov=50&day=17&month=6&year=2014&object=57

6mm66deg

http://www.12dstring.me.uk/foveyepiece.php?aperture=130&flength=650&barlow=1&efl=6&afov=66&day=17&month=6&year=2014&object=57

The dumbbell's shape is very obvious under dark skies, with bad conditions like those yesterday it is a faint haze. Worse, if you get reflections from near Windows or light (open tube, eye cup folded down or glasses) it may be invisible completely.

M13 is relatively nearby, ideal at the moment if your balcony points south, it will be VERY easy to spot, even if conditions are bad, but then you probably won't see any single stars, just a blob.

Wait for better conditions, get a planisphere or print a map of the whole sky, go somewhere where you see most of the sky as it is easier for orientation.

Then you can also check out m81 and m82 for example, also relatively easy targets depending on the time of year of course.

For me summer is a bad time for observing, up north it won't get completely dark for weeks and weeks, no matter how good the conditions are otherwise.

Good luck finding your first nebula, and I hope things will work out.

Plus, when conditions allow it, you have a tad more magnification then with the kit eyepieces. Under dark skies that really helps with some objects, as 65x is nice but more can be useful.

As more magnification makes the image darker, I may just be the conditions, and perhaps seeing of course.

[Trillian!]

compared to the sky conditions in my area, yours seem ideal!!! I live in the centre of a capital city so you can imagine .I can't complain though, it makes it more challenging! the link you sent me is really useful, I tried different objects with different eyepieces and now I'm hungry for more eyepieces and barlow lenses ..... I tried the link with a skywatcher 3.6 and it seemed to make a huge diffrerence with planets.now, do you think I would be rushing things a bit If I bought an eyepiece for around x200 magnification, plus a barlow and a nebula filter, and then I think would stop; or so I say now I guess this hobby becomes addictive and unfortunately it can be costly. but I'm leaving in a couple of weeks to ny hometown , where there would be darker skies, so why not have more fun?? I know you don't support barlows but in the site they made a huge difference. Anyway, have you got any suggestions regarding these accessories? I'm probably being a bit of nuisance so please tell me If I am. Also the site shows that the dumbbell nebula is significantly big!

http://www.12dstring.me.uk/foveyepiece.php?efl=6&afov=52&eyepiece=Revelation+Plossl+6mm    Is this image realistic at all?

I'm going to try again tonight for more views and let you know! enjoy the night sky!! you should be called an astronomy Yoda (kind of like a rank)

[Schorhr]

Hi,

Unfortunately the Link does Not Show what you intended, after changing one setting, the other options are not included in the link anymore :-)

As for realistic images, try deepsky pedia drawings - but those are subjective and usualy done under better conditions.

The problem with these type of simulations is that they A) show color images while our eyes can't see color on most objects,

and they do not consider the decreasing brightness with the aperture. Over 130x the exit pupil gets smaller then a millimeter, and contrast will decrease too as the heritage mirrors are usualy parabolized okey but not perfectly.

Some objects look better with less magnification, also depends on the conditions. Saturn looked horrible with 260x, okey with 200x.

The dumbbell nebula was nearly invisible with anything over 100x, best with 40-60x.

Under dark skies 200x did work, but it had the least contrast then.

The Barlows seem like a great idea, and the one from seben/Orbinar for 18€ shipped is not too expensive (and similar/equal to most of the skywatcher/TS/... In the price range of 20-40€!) but what the simulator does not simulate is

A) chromatic abberations (blue/yellow color fringe around objects)

lowered contrast and transmission

C) That you will see every dust spec on the lens with a barlow

D) The changed focus plane (lots of turning the focuser when changing to a non barlowed Eyepiece)

E) The handling of the tube, putting in and tightening in the middle of the night can be troublesome.

The good Barlows easily cost 50€ and up, a good eyepiece costs less...

Barlow + Kit eyepieces are a pretty bad combination. Either get the cheap achromatic seben barlow or better a HR Planetary eyepiece for 30-46 Euro.

OR instead of a good ED Barlow, consider an Astrozoom.

I can send you the links if you want, I am currently on my mobile phone.

There are 10€ 4mm eyepieces but the eye relief is about 2mm, making it hard to look through + your eye lashes will grease the lens. The difficulties while lookng through a 4mm plössl are making it hard to relax and calmly observe, and you will bump the telescope all the time.

I would suggest you give the film can mod another try with the tube of the heritage not fully extended;

If you want I can take pictures of what I mean ;-)

If you push it back in about a centimeter or two you can reach the focus with regular eyepieces and the modified.

Then you can also determin if the mirror will be good enough for 200x magnification.

Do not hesitate to try durring the day, but avoid indirect or direct sun at all cost, and try to focus on a object as far away as possible (mountain, church tower...)

I will check to see what length requires changing the Flextube and what doesn't, perhaps I can find an easier solution.

For now it seems to be to ad to the single film can, as a bit more should equal 200x and reaches focus easier (without not extending the flextube fully).

Did you check collimation by the way? :-)

This can also cause problems on higher magnification.

Nebula filters such as UHC and OIII may be too narrow banded with a 130mm aperture telescope.

They block a lot of light, this is how they work.

The filters only let the light pass that is common for some type of nebula, thus incrasing contrast.

Filters are ideal for light buckets such as 8" telescopes.

They can help to view some nebula from within the city, but a dark sky helps at least as much.

They do not work on galaxies and planets, except for making them darker, so perhaps planets such as jupiter are easier to view (??).

CLS/Light pollution filters are not as narrow banded and ideal for 4-5", but my experience with them so far have been rather disappointing. They can help, but definitely do not do miracles.

They can not filter light pollution, especially since street lamps are not all of the same type anymore and LED may be more directional but pollute light all over the spectrum.

Same as with the barlow...

...a set of decent eyepieces helps more in most situations.

No trouble at all, I just hope I am not boring you with my walls of text, but I am trying to give explenations and consider all options instead of just telling you "buy this, do that"... ;-)

The best accessory now would be a pair of 6x30, 8x40 or 10x50 binoculars, or something in the sub 50 EUR range. The cheap bresser binoculars are not ideal astronomical devices, but okey, and make it easier to spot some objects and in light polluted enviroments you can sometimes spot stars/constellations that where not visible with the naked eye, helping you get. oriented.

If it where up to me, regarding a budget solution:

3-4mm HR Planetary or BST explorer or astrozoom, or 2x seben barlow if you must :-)

12mm erfle, seben works well for the price

30mm Plössl seben (no eyecup but can be made out of pipe insulation, 17€) or 32mm Plössl (20-40€) or 24mm wide angle eyepiece (45++)

A 8mm is a nice eyepiece too... But as said, don't get everything at once, A) A Set of three gets you pretty far at the beginning and many object require less magnification, if you where to buy all of the good ones suggested, you could buy a 8" dobsonian ;-)

The eyepieces can easily exceed the cost of the telescope, so it is allways a good idea to gather experience and then buy either something affordable or something better that will work with a possible future telescope as well.

I envy your optimism and enthusiasm, the current conditions here are depressing ;-)

But you are right, no matter how much light pollution and how bad the seeing is, there is allways something up there to observe.

Even very bright objects may look dull from within a city, though ( http://www.perezmedia.net/beltofvenus/archives/001459.html )

You are going to love fall to spring, despite the lower temperatures.

May the heritage be with you. :-)

Clear skies :-)

[Trillian!]

Hello again and thanks for all the suggestions. The last couple of nights have been really difficult stargazingwise. I'm not sure what causes it (the moon, city lights) but the sky has a reddish colour and is too bright even after midnight. The moon hadn't risen even after 1 o clock  (is it better if the moon is up in the sky or if it rises late for telescope observation?) Anyway only the really bright stars and the planets were visible but I did manage to spot (I think )double stars in Lyra. I was looking for a double double  star ( a double that you can split into 4 !) but  I couldn't split them last night. What do you think causes this reddish colour and its brightness? I have added the cardboard (there are pictures attached) , hopefully I've done it correctly and I've tried adding the film can again, but it really shows nothing( I also attach pictures for you to check) and I tried it without fully extending the heritage. As for collimation I think it's ok, I defocused a star and the hole in the donut shaped image seemed to be in the middle, of course I m not that experienced yet so I can't be sure. Also, regarding your suggestion, I don't really understand, isn't a 32 mm , 24mm eyepiece for wide angle view? As I already have a 25 mm eyepiece why should I buy another one or does the brand make a real difference?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wjc02yi2xvkufer/AAAzDyaWDV36kPECAfEFqyt0a

Clear skies :-)

[Schorhr]

Hi,

an orange sky is usually caused by light pollution.

Especially the red/orange street light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp), as it scatters in the atmosphere and dust.

Also the further north you get, the shorter the night gets, it's not as dark in the summer time.

For deep-sky it is best if the moon is not up at all.

Cardboard-Tube:

Cool :-) Make sure the tube does not get narrower on one side. Also it should reach down into the tube, so no gaps visible (only the hole for the eyepiece focuser).

:-)

I meant to draw a plan for printing, but it isn't too complicated.

I am amazed that skywatcher did not include a matte black plastic shield...

Eyepiece extension:

What do you mean by "it shows nothing?"

Have you tried during the day?

How far did you leave the flextube mechanism in?

I can fit my finger tip inbetween the end of the rod and the part where it slides through (see attachment).

The higher the magnification, the more careful you have to focus, also seeing can cause problems.

Is the bottom element oriented the right way?

You can try half a film can or make a longer one (also increasing magnification), perhaps reaching focus is easier then.

Collimation: Great, then it should be okey for now ;-)

Otherwise check the collimation tutorials.

Eyepiece field:

Even though the low focal length of the heritage allows nice wide field views even with the 25mm eyepiece, a wide angle eyepiece or a plössl will show a tad more (this also makes locating objects via "star hopping" easier)

[Trillian!]

Hi there!! IFinally I had a good night, darker no orange color, which is nice , it means that conditions will not always be bad, even in the same area. I used turn left at orion (which is a delight to read) to locate objects in the summer sky and I managed to spot NGC6530 , an open cluster and some other double stars (like the beautiful 61 Cygni) . Unfortunately I don't think I can see nebulae from my balcony because if I could, I would have seen the lagoon nebula which, according to the book is where NGC6530 is. or maybe I don't have a good enough eyepiece, I'm seriously considering the plossl suggestion you mentioned. Pity, because i'm really looking forward to seeing a nebula, I guess I'll have to be patient.Unfortunately, the eyepiece extension doesn't work , even during the day the view is either totally black or sometimes whitish. I'll try cutting it in half. and what do you mean by the bottom element's orientation? Another thing I noticed the other night was that with the 6mm and the 10mm  a white disc-like object would sometimes block the view but I couldn't figure out what it was. Could it be a reflection of a light source of some sort? I m really enjoying everything so far and I have learned so much about the night sky already (at least about the visible part of the sky from my balcony oh, the cardboard  does not reach into the tube , maybe I'll tape some more cardboard to cover the gap, I know it seems silly to you but I struggled a bit with attaching it on the tube.(first I tried taping it on the outside , but then it wouldn't fit inside the tube . Anyway, thanks once again AND

Clear Skies ( I love this greeting)

[happy-kat]

I made this for mine as a different idea.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/203730-home-made-heritage-130p-ligght-shroud/?fromsearch=1

[Schorhr]

Hi :-)

The book is a great guide, tr viewing some of the brighter objects.

Great that you had better conditions!

So many factors... Pollution, seeing, lights...

After rain the air usually is clearer, too, the dirt&dust in the air scatters the light.

The phenomenon you explain could be light reflexes, especially if you view from a balcony and there are buildings or street lights visible. I have that too, it sucks, I try shielding the side of the tube with one hand;

Taping cardboard at the front of the telescope as shield could help as well.

What eyepieces are you considering?

The Seben 30mm is decent but lacks of an eye cup, a 32mm plössl costs 30€+ shipped... A HR Planetary might be a better spend.

A 20mm70deg erfle (22€) could be another choice, just a tad more field but smaller exit pupil, ideal for light polluted conditions where the sky background is awfully bright in a 30mm eyepiece.

32mm eyepiece divided by f/5 aperture ratio equals 6.4mm exit pupil, under a 4 or 5mag city sky that is way too much... So for deepsky under those conditions a 20mm might even be better?

If you order a Seben/Orbinar eyepiece, consider ordering at their webshop instead of ebay or Amazon in order to save a bit. Then you could order the 2x achromatic barlow for 13 euro if you choose.

Sorry that you have so much trouble with the mod :-/ It works well here. Bottom element the wrong way up?

The 2.5mm hr planetary eyepieces are rather cheap, 30€-ish shipped, but too much for the typical heritage130p mirror quality...

A few images, a bit over exposed as the camera is not good for planetary imaging;

3x achromatic barlow

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Capture-12.03.2014-22_50_23_highRes.jpg

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Capture-12.03.2014-22_54_37_highRes.jpg

2x achromatic barlow

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mond-24544534.jpg

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Capture-12.03.2014-22_33_36_highRes.jpg

better in comparison but still chromatic aberration

Different light wavelengths do not match at the same point, thus blue and red seams on opposite sides.

This also reduces the contrast, unwanted when viewing planets.

Just stick to the book, try m81/m82, m13, the ring nebula and other popular, brighter objects, and you will succeed :-) You will be amazed what difference a dark location can make :-)

The fall/winter season will show you a lot of great stuff too, orion nebula being one.

Good luck!

[happy-kat]

If really light at home and your eye never adjust keep an eye patch over your viewing eye when not using the telescope say you are reading that book for quick reference on your balcony and consider draping a towel over your head when at the telescope as well.

[Trillian!]

Yes, I did try doing that and it works to a degree! thank you

I ll be visiting a place with no light pollution this Saturday for the first time so for once I won't be having such problems.

I'll also be looking to try eyepieces and barlows used by fellow stargazers and see what suits me better, maybe it's the best way before you buy something.

I did finally manage to see M57 and M27 but it's really  really fuzzy and hard to see ffrom my balcony.

 Anyway, I'll see you around

Thanks for all your help

Clea Skies

[Schorhr]

Hi,

what did you try,he eyepatch? :-) I did that a couple f times but it annoyed me to limit my field of vision

great hear that you managed to spot them :-)

They should be much easier to observe under better conditions, good luck! Make sure to take a red light.

Yes, trying other people's equipment before investing more money is always a good strategy.

[Trillian!]

I tried draping a towel or a piece of cloth over my head and it works in the sense that it blocks light from the streets and it doesn't distract your vision so much, helping you focus

I 'll get an eye patch as well though just to try and if it doesn't work I can keep it for halloween

[Schorhr]

I got mine at the pharmacy, cheaper then the ones in the toy store :-)

Just got my mom some refurbished bresser junior 8x40 binoculars, not great, but at 11€ a steal :-) Saw m13 and some asterisms.

If it weren't for the bright summer night, yesterday would have been a perfect night to go out and observe, but around 2:30-3am the sky got brighter again, getting ready for dawn...

[Trillian!]

I finally had the chance to observe without light pollution, it was magical!! Just being able to see the milky way is truly an unforgettable experience ... i did see many things that i hadn't spotted at my house and it was really rewarding. I also saw how astrophotography works and i was amazed by the pictures that you can take, owing of course the right equipment which is really expensive as I was told. i was surprised that even with a simple compact camera that a friend was carrying and a telescope with a tracking system you could actually take really good pictures of clusters and nebulae.anyhow, I also tried a barlow and it worked much better with my 10mm eyepiece and with saturn specifically. I definitely need to buy a table that i can carry with me , i remeber you suggesting an ikea table? Is that portable? Also a camping char is necessary :-) i ll be better prpeared for my next stargazing night !

I also wanted to thank you once more because you helped me choose the right telescope ( it's really easy to use especially if you first priority is to learn your way around the night sky) and also for your tips throughtout our conversation :-)

Clear Skies

P.S I ll be visiting hamburg germany this month , i wonder if the skies are any different there since u would know . I won't have my telescope though, just curious :-)

[Schorhr]

Hi :-)

Great too hear!

Did you spot some Deep Sky Objects? Did you take along the book/map and red light? :-)

BARLOW

so sorry for your mixed experience with the 6mm eyepiece. It should beat the kit eyepiece plus barlow.

Did you try it -unmodified- with the barloW?

What barlow did you use?

ASTRO PHOTOGRAPHY

Yeah, astro photography can be expensive.

There are a few methods to take images for less then 50 Euro though, especially if you do not use the telescope:

-Wide field imaging and star trail images with a DSLR or camera that can be set to a couple of seconds exposure

http://www.jamesvernacotola.com/Resources/How-To-Photograph-Star-Trails/12233655_V7cX4D

http://www.earlb.com/blog/2012/10/check-nearest-neighbor-andromeda-galaxy/

There are android/iphone apps that simulate long exposure by stacking multiple images, though the sensors are usualy not sensitive enough to pick up many stars

-Barndoor (Requires a DSLR/System camera or at least a compact camera with manual exposure setting).

http://www.astropix.com/BGDA/SAMPLE2/SAMPLE2.HTM or http://education.jlab.org/tracker/

-Video astronomy

...Yes, this would require a tracking mount to use its full potential. But on a telescope with short focal length, such as the heritage, or just through a camera lens, you can get away with a couple of seconds without tracking.

The resolution is low, the images have a lot of noise...but it works.

The PD Camera costs 120 Euro or so, but some Security cameras with a similar sensor cost 30-40€ or less, 22€ if you buy the raw board and put it in a plastic box yourself.

http://www.ringohr.de/tmp6/pd-m15-m77-col.png

http://ringohr.de/tmp6/alb_0.jpg

http://www.ringohr.de/tmp6/RingNebel_3.png - all without tracking, so not very good.

The most fun experience was to attach it to a 18-55mm canon lens and take wide field images,

http://www.ringohr.de/tmp6//IMG_1389.JPG

http://www.ringohr.de/tmp6//Capture%2001.12.2013%2023_56_30.png

http://ringohr.de/tmp6/orionlong.png

As you can see, the light pollution plays a role too. With stacking, you can get more out of single frames.

Without tracking on the telescope, it will about match the visual impression, though with tracking - and even if it is just a camera lens on a barndoor - you will be able to take color snapshots of deep sky objects.

-Entry level mount, used

A EQ1 or EQ2, better Astro3, can be bought cheap if you get it used. You can motorize it or try manually, using a smaller telescope or just the camera-lens.

-Planetary imaging

With a Webcam for 7-30€, you can take images of the planets, even without tracking. It is very tedious to get them into the view with the dobsonian, especially if using a 2x or 3x barlow. A small finder scope can work well in this situation, starting at around 5€.

CHAIR AND TABLE

Yeah, a chair helps a lot,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Folding-Outdoor-Camping-Hiking-Fishing-Picnic-BBQ-Stool-Tripod-Chair-Seat-[removed word]-/151339866991?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item233c8f1b6f - you can get them for about half that price in a dollar-store.

if your back is okey, and if you are not too tall, this might do. Along with http://www.ebay.de/itm/Outdoor-Foldable-Folding-EVA-Foam-Waterproof-Chair-Cushion-Seat-Pad-Multi-Colour-/390600242304?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af196b480 to kneel or sit on, if the ground is not cold.

The problem with tables is that they are either not stable enough or heavy.

On the balcony, I use this one: http://www.ikea.com/de/de/catalog/products/30178879/

The Bolt/Nut on the bottom of the Heritage just fits into the slit when the base directly sits on the surface of the top.

There was a thread here on the forum on what kind of table to take, most solutions where for the car though.

For walking or going with the bike, I am going to build a box that contains the telescope for transportation and doubles as table.

http://blog.pixelgiraffe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/heritage-kraxe1.png

I have a commercial transportation backpack, but it can not double as table.

HAMBURG

Small world :-)

Depending on your location, it does not get truly dark until 1am.

Up north - such as Kiel (longitude 54) or Hamburg (longitude 53) - it does not get truly dark (Astronomical twilight) AT ALL around the summer solstice.

As compensation we have long, dark winter nights ;-)

[happy-kat]

I have used mine on an upturned bucket and sit on a small folding stool. Tables can wobble and that is bad.