Bresser Messier AR-127L my thoughts.

[spaceboy]

Hi All

Sorry guys and girls this isn't going to be a review as such mainly due to the fact this scope has already being reviewed at least a couple time before on SLG http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/114507-bresser-messier-127mm-achromat/ , http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/183450-bresser-messier-ar127l-exos-2-goto/ but I did want to make a point of saying just how impressed I have been with the AR127L.

I felt it best to make some comparison based on personal experience of using both the AR12L and it's closest rival the 120 Evostar to offer up a better idea of why I like the AR127L.

New the AR127L will put you back http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bresser-telescope-Messier-AR-127L-1200/dp/B002SY9JNU £271.24 delivered. They do come up used for around £150 'ish but are far and few between. For this you will get what is in my personal opinion a much higher quality fit and finish than the 120 EVO. Needless to say your also going to get a slight aperture advantage and a collimateable lens cell to ensure your always going to get the very best image quality. The gains don't stop there either as despite having a same 50mm aperture finder the Bresser comes with an illuminator as standard. Both EVO and AR127 have R&P focusers which is where the AR127 looses out against the EVO. Not because the R&P is better on the EVO as it isn't in my experience but because the EOV focuser can easily be swapped out for a DS Crayford focuser. The one other gripe I do have with the AR127 is that the dew cap is a single piece and does not step down to 50mm like the EVO. This isn't going to cause many people sleepless nights but the option can come in handy for viewing the moon and sun (with a suitable solar filter taped over the objective). With a scope that tilts the scales at just over 8kg its nice that Bresser was kind enough to think about the end user and put a carry handle on which I'm sure also adds a little rigidity to the OTA clamping. OK it is a heavy 8kg (approx.) and 1200mm long OTA so it may not be an ideal scope for everyone and if this be the case the Evostar 120 is still a worthy alternative but having twice owned Evostar 120's in the past I couldn't imagine me ever going back to one from the AR127 any time soon. It does mean it's probably better suited to an HEQ5 / GIRO but you may be able to get away with an EQ5 on a good solid tripod or pier.

Although I'm bias towards the AR127L The Evostar 120 is no slouch and still a very worth instrument to own. While the EVO weighs in a lot less that the Bresser approximately 5.5kg the 1000mm focal length means it would be better suited to an EQ5 or GIRO mount than the EQ3 it is sometimes paired up with. The EVO comes in at £254 delivered http://www.firstlightoptics.com/evostar/skywatcher-evostar-120-ota.html with used ones steadily available at around £120-£150 used. I think the price for used varies more with the EVO simply because one is more fashionable coloured than the other ?? I personally preferred the older blue tube simply because it allowed the user to collimate the objective where as the newer black and white livery tube doesn't. This said..... from what I can tell the older design with collimateable lens cell is soon to return but with the flashy make over in black and white. As mentioned previously the EVO comes with a rack and pinion focuser. The examples I had were both notchy and required some modification to smooth up the feel but backlash seemed ever present. In the end I swapped out the focuser for a DS Crayford which is as simple as undoing 3 screws http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-dual-speed-2-crayford-focuser-for-refractors.html. While a DS focuser does make the EVO into a nice Achromat I wish the designers had put more thought in to the design and offered the DS with a finder shoe as standard so as to not distract from the quality piano black finish. There is a 3rd party one available separately http://www.365astronomy.com/skywatcher-shoe-for-finderscope-bracket-with-2-holes-curved-black-p-3756.html which I guess fits better that most but would still end up looking like a total mish mash.

When all said an done the only real benefits are those ones experienced under the stars. Both the Bresser AR127L and Sky-Watcher Evostar 120 are achromatic and for that reason the do both suffer CA on brighter planets and stars. It could be expected that the AR127 showed slightly more CA being a 1/4" larger aperture but the f/9.4 focal length actually goes to control it slightly better than the faster f/8.3 EVO. I also feel the AR has more contrast that the EVO most notably on the Dumbell nebula showing even more detail than it has in my 8" newt unfiltered. Resolution on the moon is crisp although it doesn't seem to have a wide range of sharp focus as I have experienced in the past with the EVO but this may be down to other factors like ambient temperature, seeing conditions and optics cooling.

Both the EVO 120 and Bresser AR-127L are good Achromatic refractors but for me the AR127 as a whole package offers a more pleasurable viewing experience over the EVO. For only £17.24 more the Bresser offers more than just 7mm extra aperture and is well worth considering if you are in the market for a refractor.

I'd be interested to hear others thoughts and experiencies on the above scopes.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Spaceboy,

Thanks very much for these thoughts, I was looking at a frac a while back and had narrowed it down to these two scopes.  I have a little 127 Mak and I thought a similar aperture scope wasn't going to benefit me.  The only mount i have is the cg5 - so I think it would be suited to the faster startravel line from Skywatcher having a shorter tube, but I have quite bad light pollution and was wondering how you get on with light pollution and a 5" frac (not sure of your location though?).  I was thinking along the lines of a lower focal length "enhancing" the light pollution, giving a much brighter background sky - wonder what your thoughts are ? the longish focal length Mak  - would this give a slightly larger image scale due to the longer focal length over the frac and a slightly darker background sky given the longer focal length.  Not sure.

Thanks again for your thoughts and hope others can give input.  Regards.

Paul. 

[John]

Thats an interesting report about an interesting scope 

I've owned one of the older style Bresser 127L's - plain white with dark grey fittings and that was a very nice 5" refractor. I liked it a lot.

I later owned a Meade AR5 LXD75 optical tube which looked identical to the earlier Bresser 127L apart from the Meade logo's but the objective lens in that was not such a good one. It appeared to me to have quite a lot of spherical aberration and I could not get as crisp images of double stars and planets as the Bresser did no matter what adjustments I made to the collimation of either the objective or the focuser.

If you have a good one they are great scopes and it is nice somehow to have a true 5" refractor rather than a 4.7" one

[spaceboy]

Hi Paul

As it happens I have also owned Skymax 127. I did a short review a while ago which I have had no joy finding. It basically covered my then 120 EVO, 100ED and 127 Skymax. The 127 Skymax is a truly superb scope which bats way above its weight. The skymax for one doesn't suffer CA and the longer focal length means almost the entire FOV is filled with pin sharp stars with even the cheapest of eyepieces. For many this would be a deal breaker when considering the move over to a refractor. Sure you get increase in contrast from the unobstructed views of a frak but your money would be better spent on something like an 8" newt.

Yes the AR127L has given me some of the best views I have seen of M27 but use a UHC filter in the newt and it wins hands down.  The CG5 is also capable of holding an 8" newt although you may want to consider an auto focuser if you was to.

[Northern Soul man]

Nice 1 Thanks, trouble is I have never owned a frac in maybe 25 years (my first scope was a 60mm Tasco, yes, I know, not even close!!), just a newt, a dob and the trusty SCT, with the thought of under mounting the frac and probably having to get on my hands and knees to look up !!! the choice was the next best thing - the Mak - maybe one day I'll see if I can have a look through a refractor - thanks again and clear skies to you all.

Paul.

[spaceboy]

Thats an interesting report about an interesting scope 

I've owned one of the older style Bresser 127L's - plain white with dark grey fittings and that was a very nice 5" refractor. I liked it a lot.

I later owned a Meade AR5 LXD75 optical tube which looked identical to the earlier Bresser 127L apart from the Meade logo's but the objective lens in that was not such a good one. It appeared to me to have quite a lot of spherical aberration and I could not get as crisp images of double stars and planets as the Bresser did no matter what adjustments I made to the collimation of either the objective or the focuser.

If you have a good one they are great scopes and it is nice somehow to have a true 5" refractor rather than a 4.7" one

I think it is the same with anything mass produced John, sometimes there is going to be a lemon that makes it through QC maybe you got a lemon with the AR5??. As far as I can tell Meade, Bresser and Explore scientific all have these scopes. I'm guessing they are all just rebrands but this argument once stood against the EVO 120 and OMNI 120 yet the OMNI was argued to have the better optics of the two.

I can't say I have noticed any SA with the AR127 but I am not about to start looking for it as I am enjoying the views at the moment and I don't want to add any distraction after all I have enough of that in my newts. I have to admit though while on the subject I did notice SA in my C100ED. Handled CA no problem but the edge of view was not on an equal par.

[spaceboy]

  I was thinking along the lines of a lower focal length "enhancing" the light pollution, giving a much brighter background sky - wonder what your thoughts are ? the longish focal length Mak  - would this give a slightly larger image scale due to the longer focal length over the frac and a slightly darker background sky given the longer focal length.  Not sure.

Just for the record Paul it doesn't matter what the focal length of the scope is. The background brightness will remain the same at any given magnification be it an f/4 scope or an f/20 scope. http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/80664-contrast-problems-with-reflector/

[John]

SA is pretty common in chinese achromat refractors, not perhaps so prevalent in the Synta ED's though, based the ones I've owned. Most of the time it's moderate and not a big issue unless you are really looking for it. Sounds like you had back luck with your ED100 - they are normally cracking scopes.

The Chromacor CA correctors, which were specifically design for chinese refractors around F/8-F/10, were also designed to correct varying degrees of SA but you needed to work out whether your scope was over or under corrected and by what, approx, order of magnitude to get the right prescription of Chromacor. Not an easy task unless you were well versed in interpreting star tests !

[russ.will]

i must say, I do rather like my AR127L even if it now falls slightly between two stools for me. The portability of the new ES Dob has rather made it redundant, as has the colour correction of the APO Triplet. I've bought and sold about 8 scopes in the last three years, in an effort to see what I liked and missed most once it had gone. This was supposed to inform me what I would then buy as a couple of keepers, but I can't seem to find the will to list the AR127L.

The R&P focuser is a little agricultural and lacks dual speed, but adjusted right it's stable and carries anything you can hang on it. The lack of tail end weight means it sits low in it's rings and is back breaking on an EQ mount near zenith. However, the CA is minimal and certainly not distracting even on the moon - The atmosphere creates greater sins to my eyes. With the Herschel Wedge and Solar Continuum filter (CA now a complete non issue) some of the solar views I've had have shown incredible detail in sunspots and granularity. I'd also add that I find it works just fine on my EXOS-2 mount, which in stability terms isn't far behind my old HEQ5 - The 2" standard legs may be worthy of credit on what is after all, just a Meade LXD75.

And there is that certain something about swinging a metre long frac around that feels like astronomy should.

I know that's a subjective quality, but the build compared to the more ubiquitous Chinese fracs is not. The 127L feels like you could beat off hoards of Newt fanatics and it would still be serviceable. The metal collimatable lens cell is a real plus, even if the scope has only been assailed with a rough car journey. Every frac I've owned (only three, so far) has benefited from a tweak at least out of the box and I'd question anything other than a real budget scope that doesn't offer this - It makes your purchase less pot luck. 

I suppose it's become the Harley Davidson of my scopes. I couldn't ever ride it as my only scope, but if I can have more than one scope in the garage, then it definitely has a place. Even if it's not my day to day preference, it didn't break the bank and sometimes you just need bugs on your teeth.

Russell

[sbooder]

If the optics are as good on the AR 127L as they are on my AR 152L then it sounds like a nice scope.  

You could try the Semi Apo filter for the CA but I have found it to have varying outcomes.  On Jupiter it is not worth the effort of fitting the filter as the loss of contrast for me is more annoying than the halo, it is OK on the Moon but for the most part less useful then a variable polarising filter, but is superb on Mars and brings out the grain on the Sun's surface when used in conjunction with Baader film.  Have not tried the filer with Saturn yet but now Saturn is starting to climb I will try it out on the next clear night.

[Seafury]

I have one that I still haven't really used in over a year now, that says more about my laziness rather than anything else, however it is a very solid scope and I have put a an electric focuser on it which I'm sure will improve things, I have also ordered a longer dew shield from Astrozap in Germany it is made for the Meade equivalent scope but is 4 inches longer than the standard one 

[spaceboy]

If the optics are as good on the AR 127L as they are on my AR 152L then it sounds like a nice scope.  

You could try the Semi Apo filter for the CA but I have found it to have varying outcomes.  On Jupiter it is not worth the effort of fitting the filter as the loss of contrast for me is more annoying than the halo, it is OK on the Moon but for the most part less useful then a variable polarising filter, but is superb on Mars and brings out the grain on the Sun's surface when used in conjunction with Baader film.  Have not tried the filer with Saturn yet but now Saturn is starting to climb I will try it out on the next clear night.

From what I have read a fringe killer of some sort or other is almost a necessity to get the best from an Achromatic refractor http://www.company7.com/baader/options/fringekiller.html

[nightfisher]

Nice scope spaceboy, point it a saturn and enjoy some really good views, put your Canon on at prime focus and shoot some double stars

[sbooder]

From what I have read a fringe killer of some sort or other is almost a necessity to get the best from an Achromatic refractor http://www.company7.com/baader/options/fringekiller.html

To be honest, I found that I got used to the CA quite quickly with Jupiter and the loss of contrast was the greater of the two evils.

[spaceboy]

Just a little bump on this thread.

HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE TUBE IS NOT MAGNETIC ??

To me this would suggest it's aluminium but the thing weighs a ton.

Any thoughts ??

[russ.will]

Correct, it is aluminium and thick aluminium at that.

[Peter Drew]

I've shortened mine for a PST mod and can confirm that it is thick walled aluminium.  

[spaceboy]

Thanks guys. So much for my taxi cab magnet counter weights

Wonder why they went that route ? I can understand aluminium for light weight but I'd hardly consider the AR127 as light

[F15Rules]

From what I have read a fringe killer of some sort or other is almost a necessity to get the best from an Achromatic refractor http://www.company7.com/baader/options/fringekiller.html

I can't agree with that assertion. I've used lots of achromats ( a a few apos) and with very few exceptions haved always been delighted with the sharpness, clarity and contrast of the views - with no need for a fringe killer.

Indeed, the only time I owned a fringe killer I thought the yellowish cast it imparted to the image was much worse than the original CA!

Dave

[John]

I agree with Dave. I feel it's best to accept that achromatic refractors produce CA of varying degrees, depending on the focal ratio and aperture, and then select the best tool for the job you want to do.

If you really don't want an CA and don't want to shell out for a triplet apochromat then think about newtonians, SCT's and maks which don't produce any.

[spaceboy]

CA makes no odds to me 85% of the time, which is lucky as I'd have to sell the better half of my collection of scopes if it did 

But if there was a chance a filter did go to improving achromatics then I'm sure no one would pass it up.

I do have and use a fringe killer as I found it comes in handy on an almost full moon in my faster fraks. The view is IMO are far better contrasted using the FK as the shadows on the lunar surface are no longer blown out by violet fringing. Yes everything is yellow but it's a contrasted yellow rather than a blown out flat feeling view. If I'm not in the mood for the moon being made of cheese I just stack up the fringe killer with my Neodymium filter for a a less mature cheddar.

[russ.will]

Thanks guys. So much for my taxi cab magnet counter weights

Wonder why they went that route ? I can understand aluminium for light weight but I'd hardly consider the AR127 as light

Where aluminium is employed as an alternative to steel, it seldom delivers much (if any) of a weight reduction if you want to achieve all of the same properties. My OOUK VX8L was notably lighter than my shorter than my SW Explorer 200p, but the OTA dented if you even so much as looked at it funny. You win, you loose.

However, ali is much easier to work and form at much lower temperatures, so seamless extrusions as we have in the AR127L are easier to make. FWIW, being steel or thinner ali wouldn't solve one issue of the 127; that being that it is nose heavy, resulting in awkward viewing angles near zenith due to the low viewing position, even with tripod legs extended.

There is a thread/review on CN where a user glued a load of lead (or whatever passes for lead these days) fishing weights into the cavities in the focuser, in order to allow the scope to be shifted up in it's rings and now I know how easy it is to remove the focuser, I'm thinking about doing this.

That and an 18" mount extension.

Russell

[Peter Drew]

One reason for thick walled aluminium tubes is availability. 3mm wall is fairly common stock size up to150mm diameter. 

[Caldwell14]

I agree with Dave. I feel it's best to accept that achromatic refractors produce CA of varying degrees, depending on the focal ratio and aperture, and then select the best tool for the job you want to.

Same as that.

To be honest I am always amazed just how big a deal CA seems to be on here when diffraction spikes and coma appear to produce a mere shrug of the shoulders

[nightfisher]

Same as that.

To be honest I am always amazed just how big a deal CA seems to be on here when diffraction spikes and coma appear to produce a mere shrug of the shoulders

Have to also agree, CA has never bothered me, but diffraction spikes on Jupiter are a right put of, another poor view was with a badly figured 102 f9 syntra lens that had a of spherical aberration, that soon went