Atik 29megapixel CCD?

[Martin-Devon]

Well, after eager anticipation that Atik were going to release their new breakthrough 29 megapixel widefield CCD at Astrofest - for me at least it was quite an anti-climax that they didn't do this after all. In the end all they released for deep sky imaging was the Atik One 6.0 CCD, which is a repackaged 6 megapixel ICX694 chip, the same as in the popular Atik 460. OK, they also offered this with an integrated filter wheel as well, but why only 5 positions? So you can either do narrowband, or you can do broadband, but cannot leave both sets of filters in! Their EFW2 is top notch, with 7 positions for 1.25" filters which accomodates LRGB plus HA, OIII, SII all together - also these 1.25" filters are absolutely fine for the Atik 460, so I would have expected them to integrate this with the new One 6.0? Not sure I follow their reasoning here, unless it's so they don't cannabalize their future sales of the stand-alone EFW2?

I'm beginning to wonder if there are issues around the Kodak 29 megapixel CCDs? QSI were also touting launch of their QSI700 version of this in the autumn of last year, but that has been delayed now and still no definite date on their website either.

Would be pleased to hear views & feedback on this.

Martin

[Stephen]

Relayed to me from Astrofest, Atik said they weren't happy with the 29000 hence their delay

[ChrisLX200]

I doubt my computer would like processing 29Mp images much...

ChrisH

[ollypenrice]

I doubt my computer would like processing 29Mp images much...

ChrisH

This is an issue. I sometimes run out of grunt on very big mosaics.

I don't think anyone is yet able to offer this chip in an astro camera, are they? I certainly hope Atik manage it because it would be perfect for all the FSQ106 owners out there. I'll bite the financial bullet and buy one if they do appear. Better hope they don't, really!

Olly

[Earl]

is it not out already?

http://www.optcorp.com/fli-ml29050m-grade-2-monochrome-camera-mechanical-shutter-optional.html

[Tiny Small]

Just as an aside here, even with other types of photography away from astro, in the medium format market Kodak were plagued with troubles and their digital backs ultimately failed miserably as Hasselblad, Phase One and Leaf outperformed them to a very high degree in every possible aspect, but in particular, noise control. Admittedly this is now going back a couple of years but they don't have a great comparative history with large scale chips.

[Tiny Small]

Having just followed the link, I now realize that its still a small chip just with high pixel density. This is a very different thing to a medium format sensor. Still pretty expensive though

[Martin-Devon]

Earl, you could be right - I'd not seen these FLI CCD's much since they not common in Europe. It says on the Opticorp website though, when you click to buy, that "this product is not available for immediate shipping....", so maybe they are not yet on general release either by FLI?

I'd love to see any images taken though from this Kodak KAI 29050 chip, so far they are completely elusive. I've heard some comments that this chip has shallow depth pixels and that the low quantum efficiency coupled with small (5.5uM) pixels means that the sensitivity is not that great either - would be nice to see this refuted with some actual images...

Martin

[davew]

I can understand a certain disappointment about what does and doesn’t get announced. There is a problem though. This “ Storm in a tea cup “ is being driven, in the main, by certain forum members. I went to Kelling last year and spoke to the Atik reps. ( Can’t remember names now ) When asked about release dates they said it was for the new year. That was it. They did give the impression the Sony cameras would be out first and that appears to be the case. FLO started a thread on the new cameras and all was well.

The fact the cameras are now in a new form factor is in my opinion the biggest breakthrough in their production. Even I could get to like a non-cylindrical camera that can be built to cool properly and doesn’t pander to what is probably less than 1% of the buying public – Hyperstar ! It's nice to see them joining FLI, Moravian and QSI.

Where has the idea that the Truesense chip is less than perfect come from ?    It was introduced in 2010 and was intended as a simplified arrangement for manufacturers, not harder. The machine vision world seems to cope ok as does FLI and APOGEE ( Unless someone knows differently ) I don’t think I’d read too much into FLI making them more or less to order. They just don’t seem to have broken through like the KAF 16803 chip. Is it the case that Atik haven’t yet got to grips with the 29050? Due to the new form factor I suppose they could be having temperature stabilization problems. No idea. There are other things that even I can think of. The major one would be voltage stabilization. I’ve also no idea if they are trying the two amplifier downloads as they aren’t easy to do I’m informed. The single is slower but easier. Again, no idea. Who other than Atik has, that is likely to tell ?

You see, I can make things up as I go along too.

Re images. I think Richard Crisp has produced some. I also think there is at least one member here who raves about the 29050 chip.

I wouldn't worry about the shallow well depth and lowish QE. Wait until some real world images start floating about. The likely hood is that you'll just have to wind back the RGB exposures a bit and do more subs. The 8300 chip doesn't sound much better on paper does it ?

So Martin. I’d chill and wait and see what either FLO have to say or better still Atik themselves. Ignore all the wind up merchants  There are serious imagers waiting for information and they deserve the facts.

Dave.

[ollypenrice]

My plan for this camera, if it appears, would be to put it in the dual rig for luminance and keep the 11 meg in the other scope for RGB. This would be similar to binning the colour.

I'd be very wary of reading anything into the Optcorps ad. Many vendors' sites like to encourage traffic, understandably. I couldn't find any Richard Crisp images with the 29 meg but someone else might do better on Google.

At the moment there is no (digital) camera of which I'm aware that can really exploit the optics of the FSQ, which can cover an 88mm circle and has a 530mm focal length. It would be so nice to see one appear at a 'possible' price. Teens of thousands of dollars don't count!

Olly

[davew]

I have a link to a Fits file of M42 through a 29050 by Richard Crisp. It was a test image to show saturation on such a shallow well capacity.

The link is now dead !

An email has been sent to Richard ( Not by me ) and we should hopefully have a reply soon.

Dave.

[Chris Rowland]

It's on Richard's site: http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/home_page.htm  The equipment section.

Chris

[davew]

I must be going daft ( er ) because I can't see them there !

Here are some -

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/m33_ap155_ml29050_40x15min_lum.jpg

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/IC1795_ml3_ap155_L52_S34_H32_O32_6MP.jpg

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/ml29050_15min_lum_stack.zip   Beware, big file. Stacked but unprocessed.

He says he only used the single amplifier for these shots.

Dave.

[ollypenrice]

I must be going daft ( er ) because I can't see them there !

Here are some -

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/m33_ap155_ml29050_40x15min_lum.jpg

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/IC1795_ml3_ap155_L52_S34_H32_O32_6MP.jpg

http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/ml29050_15min_lum_stack.zip   Beware, big file. Stacked but unprocessed.

He says he only used the single amplifier for these shots.

Dave.

Brilliant, thanks. A ray of hope!!

Wallet's wincing though.

Olly

[davew]

Brilliant, thanks. A ray of hope!!

Wallet's wincing though.

Olly

I think it's a case of when they appear, they appear. FLI seem to be a company slightly apart from the rest. If they could fit a frozen potato chip in they'd do it. You name a chip and they will provide it, at a price. But.......

Next chip up for discussion could be the KAI 16070. FLI..... of course. QSI...... they say so. Moravian..... giving nothing away ( To me at least )

I estimate ( Don't quote me because it won't get you anywhere ) the 16070 will come in around £ 500 plus above the 11002 and well below the 16803 and 29050.

It may just work - http://www.ccd.com/pdf/ccd_16070.pdf

Dave.

[Chris Rowland]

The CCDs are made out of semiconductor grade silicon and that's one of the most expensive things around.  With imaging you can't get round this by reducing the size so the price of the CCD will be more or less proportional to it's area.  That's going to influence the whole price.

Chris

[ollypenrice]

I think it's a case of when they appear, they appear. FLI seem to be a company slightly apart from the rest. If they could fit a frozen potato chip in they'd do it. You name a chip and they will provide it, at a price. But.......

Next chip up for discussion could be the KAI 16070. FLI..... of course. QSI...... they say so. Moravian..... giving nothing away ( To me at least )

I estimate ( Don't quote me because it won't get you anywhere ) the 16070 will come in around £ 500 plus above the 11002 and well below the 16803 and 29050.

It may just work - http://www.ccd.com/pdf/ccd_16070.pdf

Dave.

This looks quite like the 16000M chip used in the SXVH36. I use one of those, though it isn't mine. The smaller pixels are a step in the right direction but, really, the resolution gained over the 11000 is not a game changer. Around 5 micron, though... ah yes!!

Olly

[davew]

Update primarily for Martin.

I've exchanged emails with Moravian and got their take on the 29050 chip. Nothing wrong with it at all but they are developing the 16070 for future release. Probably

A good few reasons they're not utilising the 29050 chip including low sensitivity, lower dynamic range, higher noise and more. ( In comparison )

The new camera will be in the G3 series and that is cooled to -50* Delta so should be good there. It is as I said, an easy chip type to use and a 29050 could be brought out at almost a moment's notice.

So. Slightly bigger pixels on offer that may not have people rushing to sell their 11002 but worth a look if you don't already have one.

Dave.