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What's Inbetween "Beginner" And "Experienced" ?


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So I may well be a newbie as far as Astronomy in knowing names etc. out there is concerned, but when it comes to how the scope works with light and imaging with exposure times etc. I may not know about the specific processes people need to use but I know farm more about how it all works than most. I dare say that there are some expert images about who have less knowledge on how the system works and what to do when it doesn't because of wrong settings than I do because they have bought a high spec system that works. A classical example if how many people who own a DSLR really knows what all the settings do? A lot don't because they just switch to the P mode or where Astronomy is concerned set a shutter speed.

This unfortunately is one of the issues with deciding experience or not. Astrophotography through a telescope, actually has very little in common with daytime photography other than they both use a camera. At prime focus, there really are no control settings, other than 'shutter speed' (10minutes please, my telescope is 750mm FL @ f/5 ;) ) Being experienced in photography, can give you an advantage in picking up astrophotography, or it can be a serious disadvantage if you don't acknowledge some of the differences (I am not suggesting for one moment you with this statement, merely trying to illustrate a point). e.g. "It's underexposed...increase the ISO to make the camera more sensitive". Wrong on three counts. It's almost always going to be underexposed, that's what processing is for. Increasing the ISO has no effect on camera sensitivity. For more signal, increase the exposure time either by lengthening the subs, if you can, or getting more of them if you can't. Even the term aperture, has quite a different slant to it (although the underlying principle is the same).

With such an expansive hobby, I don't see it is feasible to classify peoples 'experience' level in a user rank. I have owned and used a refractor for more than 30 years, Newtonians for about 4 years but I have never used a Schmidt-Cassegrain. Which level am I?

It isn't even easy looking at kit lists in signatures. I know a few very experienced and knowledgeable astronomers, with only one old scope and a couple of simple eyepieces. Counter to that, how many times have we seen 'all the gear, no idea'. I've bought this Parramount see... which end do I look through?!

If I have a question to ask, I always try have a look at someone's older posts before deciding how much weight to give their answer.

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   Wow, so many sensitive people out there when it comes to responding to a subject that even hints of any controversy :shocked:

I hope not. It just seems a very difficult subject to distil down to a simple answer :o

In principle, I agree with you completely. We do need some idea of the 'competence' (for want of a better word) of the responses to our questions. I just don't know how to get that, without a little homework round the forum.

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This unfortunately is one of the issues with deciding experience or not. Astrophotography through a telescope, actually has very little in common with daytime photography other than they both use a camera. At prime focus, there really are no control settings, other than 'shutter speed' (10minutes please, my telescope is 750mm FL @ f/5 ;) ) Being experienced in photography, can give you an advantage in picking up astrophotography, or it can be a serious disadvantage if you don't acknowledge some of the differences (I am not suggesting for one moment you with this statement, merely trying to illustrate a point). e.g. "It's underexposed...increase the ISO to make the camera more sensitive". Wrong on three counts. It's almost always going to be underexposed, that's what processing is for. Increasing the ISO has no effect on camera sensitivity. For more signal, increase the exposure time either by lengthening the subs, if you can, or getting more of them if you can't. Even the term aperture, has quite a different slant to it (although the underlying principle is the same).

Yes but if you have experience in working with low light conditions then you know about exposure times etc. ISO in digital doesn't work the same as film ISO. Film ISO was used to give either fine quality or grainy images, yes it helped with low or bright light, but I used it for the quality I wanted and ISO on digital either gives good quality at lower ISO or rubbish noise at the higher end. That is only recoverable with the software by using the bias and flats not what you would do as a normal photographer.

I think that someone who has worked in all subject areas on how a camera actually works has a better idea on how the imaging works when you try AP.

Even I've learnt a lot since I started a month ago from the DSS, which I think is something the Astronomy will always do to everyone, we will always be learning.

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I hate labels. I really dont think they are needed in any way,shape or form in any aspect of life. Astronomy is a hobby (or a way of life to many), but we are all in the same boat. We all start out from day zero and over time gain experience,knowledge and understanding. Ive been observing for about 34 rs now and i am still by no stretch of the imagination an expert on anything astro-related. Nor am i a professional astronomer. I learn stuff here every time i log on.

I can/ try to answer questions from people just starting out (which to me would be basic entry level questions..........but still very valid questions) and i can also try to answer more "advanced" questions because of what i have learned in the 34 yrs of observing and from being a member here.

I've always just been a visual astronomer. I tend not to delve into the technical side of things. If something at the eyepiece/scope/bins/camera works for me...........i am happy. I dont care for how it works. It works. 

I leave the maths and all that stuff up to those who are in the know.

The great thing about SGL is that nobody "pulls rank" on anyone else. We are all equals. Ive been on other astro forums and some of the members "pull rank" ande will not even give new members the time of day.

No one needs to be a member of those forums.

Paul

P.S.~~i think the term "seasoned astronomer" may be fitting. Afterall.............the hobby is reliant on the seas.  The more seasons you have spent observing etc equates to how much you have seen,learnt,experienced over the yrs.

But even that is not really correct.

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   Wow, so many sensitive people out there when it comes to responding to a subject that even hints of any controversy :shocked:

Nothing "controversial" about it.

It's daft, impractical and not necessary :grin: (and before you get upset - I mean the idea, not you! :tongue: )

It is simply down to someone asking for help and advice to provide as much information pertinent to his/her particular enquiry to get best possible advice/answer, and that might be different depending on subject. One is not experienced and/or knowledgeable in everything, so one is usually a "beginner"when asking a question (regardless of post count or experience in many other areas).

It seems to me like a re-run of collimation question :grin:

Then you were upset that nobody listened to good advice, now you seem to be upset that people make it difficult to give good advice, because it's not clear how experienced they are...

I'd say chill out - if they ask stupid questions or don't give enough information... just ignore them :grin:

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"BTW, about that "fun" rating above the avatar - I think its not of any practical use. To me, it incites compitition in posting only."

You're entirely correct Q - it's no practical use whatsoever cos it's meant to be a bit of fun only - as explained in the welcome section. And post farming is soon recognised and quashed - anyone caught doing it has their post count reset - also clearly stated in the forum rules.

I just think labeling folks according to perceived experience is a non starter. How can you really measure and categorise it? You only have their word to go on. And even experienced folks can't always explain how they did something significant in a way a newbie can understand - despite producing an expert result themselves.

I think just being polite and helpful whilst listening and using a little ingenuity of question - one can soon establish the level someone is at - and pitch their answers accordingly. Of course - it helps the responder, if they actually want to help people at any level in the first place. Otherwise - you simply pick the level you wish to join in with. :)

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Yes but if you have experience in working with low light conditions then you know about exposure times etc. ISO in digital doesn't work the same as film ISO. Film ISO was used to give either fine quality or grainy images, yes it helped with low or bright light, but I used it for the quality I wanted and ISO on digital either gives good quality at lower ISO or rubbish noise at the higher end. That is only recoverable with the software by using the bias and flats not what you would do as a normal photographer.

I think that someone who has worked in all subject areas on how a camera actually works has a better idea on how the imaging works when you try AP.

Even I've learnt a lot since I started a month ago from the DSS, which I think is something the Astronomy will always do to everyone, we will always be learning.

Yes, I agree. Someone who actually does understand the principles behind it, certainly has a headstart when it comes to AP, but when you don't know yourself, how do you tell advice from an 'expert' from advice from someone with a camera phone who thinks they are pro, because their's goes to 11? The only way is to have a look at the images they've posted and see who's put up the best stuff. It's not always the guy with best kit either :)

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To come back to the original question, between beginner observers and experience observers there are just observers. The "default", it's what I venture most of us are. We've had a decent number of observing sessions, we can work our scopes and find stuff with them, but there's certainly a lot we haven't tried and don't know.

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"The only thing that post count proves is that someone is prolific (or has no "real" life  :grin: ).

To a degree i completely agree.

Post counts/member status does cause a certain level of intimidation/friction/pulling rank with some (on some forumns) . Either you are just talking the talk (while not walking the walk) or people feel that they can not approach you for help because you are way "above them". This is rubbish. 

Personally, i'd love to see SGL get rid of the post counts,member status (super nova,nebula,star forming etc etc etc) and "likes" and just have user names and location.

That way, we are all on an even keel and no one needs to feel "inferior", because they really shouldnt.

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Another great, if lightly contentious, thread.

Surely the person asking the question should take a moment over the wording of the question so as to elicit the required level of detail?

There are normally a few clues in the question / signature.

Absence of clues or detail would suggest absence of knowledge/experience. Answer accordingly. ie, "What telescope should I buy?" could appropriately be answered with a link to a pertinent thread, a sentence of encouragement and the offer of more advice if they need to know more after reading.

Re. Experience categories. Bad idea. It will introduce competition and fuel egos. Other than some light hearted Messier counting amongst us newbies, this forum is largely free from that sort of thing. Anyway, I have a feeling that most of the experts would be far too modest to badge themselves thus.

In summary - Out of courtesy, the poster should make it clear what level of answer they require. It only takes a sentence.

Sorry to ramble.

Paul (Newbie for the foreseeable future)

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I think the value of forums like SGL is that a poster of a query will have a variety of responses, and usually quite quickly, from a mix of experienced and less experienced members. All responses have value though all might not be in agreement of course. Anyone who has something constructive to add should feel able to post.

I find the equipment lists in the signature lines useful because its very easy to forget to put the details of, say, the scope that a poster has, when asking a question about eyepieces say, and the answers may well be influenced by the scope thats being used.

My impression is that 99% of all the posts made here are aimed at being helpful, sharing some experience or knowledge or just being encouraging. Thats what gives the forum a nice "feel" I think  :smiley:

If negative or critical feedback on a piece of kit is given it's in the interest of helping inform a decision rather than knocking that item and others who happen to own it.

I've made a few choices that didn't work out over the years and I'd like to help someone else avoid that frustration if I can :smiley:

Another thing that I try and remember, and I'm as guilty as anyone of this from time to time too, is that electronic communications can come over as being more strident or assertive than intended. It's good to use the "smileys" I think :smiley:

We will have the odd rough spot here and there and there are topics which can go off beam rather quickly and negatively from time to time but the mods and admins know what to look out for though we always tend to take "a light touch" wherever we can.

Generally it's a real pleasure moderating the forum which must say something about the quality of it's members and the spirit of the discussions :smiley:  

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There's no need to label people. We all share the same interest and, at the end of the day, it's just a hobby :)

Exactly. Leave labels to careers and job titles. I'm a web master/designer. I have the certificates to prove it. I know how to look after animals............but i am not a Vet.

Astronomy is a hobby................we are all in the same boat, no matter of how long we have all been in the hobby.

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When I became interested in astronomy I lurked here for a few weeks - and several things struck me:

- That everyone is helpful and there's a delightful lack of trolling. 

- That people always try to answer questions in a helpful manner

- … and on the occasions that someone gets it wrong they're usually gently corrected in short order, with a smile

- The sum total experience of people on the forum is gobsmacking.

In short, the people and advice seemed open and reliable, and I had good advice when starting from 'experienced' and 'beginner' members. I don't think labels would help things. I certainly wouldn't want to be a "Grade 3 Astronomer", though now I think about it "Artful Nudger" is a label I could live with.

And you can set your own labels on the left in your profile - I think mine sums up my approach to astronomy nicely. 

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Why not stick with beginner, intermediate and experienced. You don't need to think up new terms, they just need to be defined for the purposes of the forums. Personally I think these terms are more a matter of attitude and how you feel. I have to say that I might feel experienced in some aspects but a pure beginner in others. It's also highly subjective. Without a doubt I am a complete beginner in Imaging, but when talking to a few others in my astro club, it was clear that I knew a great deal more than they did and they might see me as intermediate. Indeed I know of a few imagers who are fantastically experienced but modesty prevents them from declaring it.......It's not easy.

I can see why a system of definitions would be useful, but I guess ultimately the poster will determine where they think they sit and in which area of astronomical experience their expertise sits. I feel quite negative saying the above, but it was just an observation on a subject that I find difficulty when applying to myself let alone others. But I do think that "beginner, intermediate and experienced" are already (sort of) well understood and possibly a little definition would put some meat on the bones.

Live long and prosper.

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Why not stick with beginner, intermediate and experienced. 

The problem is beginner at what? The hobby covers so many aspects. I know nothing about scopes other than my own so could never advise on what to buy or how to work a different type of scope and I suspect that will be the case for a very long time, but I feel that I wouldn't class myself as a beginner in some other aspects even though I am beginning to learn new things in all areas.

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I like the number of posts count. I think it's only a label of how many posts you've done, it's not subjective, which I think a level of expertise would be. What about someone who is regarded as world class in one area, but is a relative newbie in other areas. Would they be intermediate?

The post count also helps with a few things like letting people know they can't edit their post or see the classifieds because they have not made enough posts. I also found the post count handy in the early days to get a feel for who the regulars were. It helped me recognise a few of the names early on and to feel a bit more oriented among the mass of posts :)

As a newbie, I didn't find large post counts intimidating. The only thing really I found a bit scary in my whole SGL experience was going to my first star party, SGL4, and thinking I might have a small scope compared to others (though I have since learnt that a C6 is a cracking scope) and was a bit worried that I didn't know much about the hobby and might feel like the odd one out. I needn't have worried, I had a brilliant time, and the very experienced SGLers made you feel very welcome :)

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Great place this forum so I'd be wary of change.  

Just one thought.  Threads are read by many people who are not the OP or the kind people who replied.  If the thread is totally targeted to the OPs assumed experience it has less value to others (and if the assumed experience level is wrong also less value to the OP).  

However if the thread develops into a discussion the value to the OP and many others can be greatly enhanced.  And of course the OP, as often occurs, can request greater clarification or more detail as required.

Just my humble opinion but I'd keep it simples  :grin:

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There are so many aspects to this "hobby". And with each aspect there are tons of subdivisions. 

For me personally, the reason I am a member of this site is the fact there are differences in answers. Some from very the most novice visual observers and some from the most experienced imaging pros. (and I use the term "pro" loosely  :smiley:.

On a rare occasion I try to answer a question posted by others but only when it is something I have recently dealt with in the field and usually with a piece of equipment I am familiar with.

9 times out of 10 someone else comes along with a better solution or suggestion and not only do I not feel bad about what I had posted, I am almost glad as I see it from another point of view and learn something from it.

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And you can set your own labels on the left in your profile - I think mine sums up my approach to astronomy nicely.

Really? I thought the label we all carry reflects the post count we have.

I will investigate.

I set mine to Blue Straggler. :grin:

500 posts I think it is and you can change it.

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