Polluted Skies & First Telescope

[robgazer]

Hello All,

Firstly I have to declare that I'm a newbie and currently only have a pair of 10x50 binoculars to view the heavens with. I've had the binoculars for over a year and have struggled to see anything worthwhile mainly due to that horrible orange halo in the skies called light pollution.

I bought the binoculars to see what I could see (not much!), before splashing out on a telescope and having suffered a demoralising defeat with the binoculars, I had all but come the conclusion that I'm cursed by living in a big city and it wouldn't be much better with a telescope, I've saved my money and made do with watching the Sky At Night and using the Stellarium software.

That is up until now. Recently whilst in the Hoch Schwarzwald in southern Germany on a winter holiday I was lucky enough to see (for the first time) the Milky Way whilst on a night hike in the mountains, it was mesmerising, just couldn't take my eyes of it for the hour that we were on top of that snow covered mountain. It was a bitterly cold but crystal clear night.

The upshot (and I know I've took a while getting to it) is that I've come back from that holiday determined to have another go at my light polluted skies, this time with a telescope. I've done a little bit of research and have settled on the Skywatcher Heritage 130p Dobsonian as the scope I want to buy.

I've read good things about this telescope on Amazon and a few other sites, it's highly portable and as many have stated who have upgraded to bigger reflectors, they prefer to keep them as a grab 'n' go because they've enjoyed using them.

I would be grateful to listen to any opinions on what the performance of this scope might be under light polluted skies? Logically I'm hoping for a big or noticeable improvement over my bins at the very least or there's no point buying one? Are my expectations too high?

Is it possible to learn/find objects in light polluted skies or can this only be done from dark sites?

Finally would a 1.25" 2x Barlow Lens Achromatic Eyepiece (generic/no brand) be a good item to buy for this telescope, I've seen a few on fleabay around £20-£25?

Thanks for any help.

[Mr Q]

   Light polluted sky is a tough nut to crack even with bins. In order to answer some of your questions, first visit the link below and zoom in on your location to get an evaluation of the amount of LP you have. If it turns out you are in a red or white zone, there is not much you will be able to see no matter what you use.

   The map will show you how close you are to much darker skies (orange or yellow areas) in order to plan trips to these darker sky sites. Once we know what you are up against, we can answer more of your questions.

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/dlorenz/web/astronomy/lp2006/overlay/dark.html

[robgazer]

Hello Mr Q,

Thanks for your reply.

After looking at the light pollution map you've linked, it looks like I'm in a red zone.

Although using common sense, I would have thought that because most people live in cities (red zones) then most astronomers are suffering similar to myself, but to varying degrees?

[robgazer]

Hello Mr Q,

I need to correct my last post.

Having just zoomed in on where I live, I've just noticed there's varying degrees of red, from red to pinky-red.

I'm in the pinky-red, not full red if that means anything.

[Mr Q]

   Well, that's not too bad. You should see some of the brightest objects including the brighter planets (Venus, Mars, Saturn and Jupiter) but the problem you will have is locating them. To start with, see if you can see the big dipper. If so, you may be able to locate some DSOs (deep sky objects) but it still may be hard to do.

   Is there any areas in the pink or yellow zones within reach by car? If not, you can try concentrating on the darkest part of the sky where you are. If not, buying a scope may be a waste of money unless you can transport it to a darker area. Sometimes straight up will be a "zone" darker and you can shield some local light by observing behind buildings or trees. If not, I'm afraid your observing with just binoculars will be only marginal. And don't forget to try observing on clear (no haze or light fog) nights, which will help cut down some of the LP

[robgazer]

Hello Mr Q,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm suddenly full of hope!

Yes I can see the big dipper clearly on nights without cloud, its last two stars pointing to Polaris. I can also see Leo, Orion, Gemini etc. I can also see the Pleiades with naked eye.

The problem with binoculars it that I can see very little of what's in between or around these bright constellations. For instance looking at the Pleiades with binoculars improve it, but it doesn't give that wow factor I hear so many talk about, I just tend to get a stiff neck from all the effort I have to put in.

I'd should say I'm not expecting miracles with a 5 inch reflector, but certainly more than my binoculars.

The real 'eye opener' for me was the Milky Way in Germany, it just goes to show how much light pollution is above big cities, I always thought it could only be seen like that from the top of a mountain in Hawaii, the Milky Way is there, I just need to get through all Rubbish to see the various bits of it.

[Joseki]

Hi,

 as someone living under a 'big red blob' (thanks for the link Mr Q), it is challenging (though I could get out to much better skies if I had the time) but still worthwhile.  I certainly don't regret my telescope purchases.  DSO's are going to be a problem (and perhaps not the most rewarding), but M42 is easily seen (even in a little 114mm grab and go newt, 60mm bins or 90mm refractor though views through my 10" newt are much better), though that is probably the best of the DSOs.  A Baader Neodynium filter may help (so-called light pollution filter  http://www.firstlightoptics.com/light-pollution-reduction/baader-neodymium-filter.html but honestly it hasn't worked wonders for me).    Even without considering DSOs you can be happily splitting double stars, getting great views of the major planets, exploring and learning about the moon and with the correct filters and telescope you can have a go at solar observation (though the heritage 130 is open at the top so not the best for solar IMO given the risks of unfiltered sunlight reaching the mirror).  A telescope with GOTO may help in the end but I would say there's lots to do without it.

[ecw199]

I'm a newbie too and about to embark on buying my first telescope. I've held back for a long time because I've worried about light pollution (I live on the edge of Portsmouth). However I have recently discovered an astronomy club in my county that has access to a dark sky site not far from where I live. They meet twice a month and this means I can go to a dark sky site to observe in the safety of having other people around. 

So search the internet and see if their is a similar club near you. 

[Mr Q]

   Thanks guys for your input. I nevr did trust those LP map very much. Ive seen several different shades for the same area at different sites but they are of some use.

   Rodgazer - Well that's a whole new ball game indeed if you can see the constellations you say you can. In that case, YES, go for the scope! There are many DSOs you should be able to see if you know where to look. Even before you get the scope, print out some star maps at the below link and try for some objects with the binoculars. If they are 10x50s they should detect lots of DSOs with your sky conditions - its just a matter of knowing just where to look. The monthly maps will help you find binocular and telescopic objects as well as naked eye ones. Use the monthly maps to learn some new constellations for future use.

http://www.skymaps.com/downloads.html

[AstroJon]

I'm never sure what to make of those light pollution maps either. The one I used previous showed me as being in a orange zone but on a boundary with a green/blue zone whereas this one I am in a clear yellow zone. From the constellations you described  it doesn't look too bad.

An advantage of the Heritage 130p is that it is small, light and very portable. You can literally pick it up with one hand, stick some eyepieces in your pockets and go for a walk.

[robgazer]

Hello Joseki,

Thanks for your reply.

I've read a few reviews about those LP filters and nobody really seems to praise them, it's mostly neutrality or negative (they just darken the image).

I'm already heartened by what's been said in the replies on here.

The number of times I've wanted to zoom in on the moon alone should have justified my buying a scope by now, but the moon is not always there to look at.

Part of my problem using bins is that I never used them on tripod, I just thought of them as the ultimate grab 'n' go, I've suffered from a mixture of impatience, tired arms and LP.

[robgazer]

Hello ecw199,

Thanks for your reply.

I do intend at some point to go to a star party, but I'd like my back garden to be the first place I learn the sky.

It's just there (the garden), with a chance to see something on a regular basis.

[Blazar]

Double star hunting is also something you could do..even with a bit of LP. Binoculars are still great for star hopping and finding your way around...it will be upside down and back to front in the dob.. ;-) Also have you got a copy of Turn Left at Orion? might be worth getting a copy..or as others have stated get some star maps of the internet. I think the book is better to be honest, as it shows you how to find objects. get the ring bound version, not on a tablet....

Good luck

[robgazer]

Hello Mr Q,

Thanks for the reply,

That star map link is absolutely excellent, day by day positions of everything, mucho thanks! I'll try again with the map and bins if it's clear tonight.

[ardbeg74]

For what its worth, i'm in a white zone. However my garden is reasonably dark, as in no street lights or security lights. Naked eye mag 2 - just about 3 at the zenith. But my views are blocked until about 30 degrees. So typically im observing 40 to 80+ degrees.

Like you I was worried about buying a scope and finding that i couldnt see anything. However in the last 3 months ive seen plenty. Not as much as others with better skies, but im not disappointed with what ive seen. Given that on a cloudy night i CAN read in my garden... just glad to be able to see anything at all

So just have to manage your expectations.  For me thats the planets, moon, solar (when i get round to buying a filter) double stars and clusters. I'll take  DSO's when i can get em but its not my main diet.  Magnified finder that came with my scope has been great, telrad or rdf would probably be useless for me. A bit of mag does reveal a lot more stars n stuff lurking about than the LP would suggest.

So unless you have lights shining on your face all the time or cant see anything through your bins.. i'd say go for it.

Curious though... what about the 8" dob? Just thinking aloud here but is there not a 6-10" sweet spot for LP skies?

HTH

Mark

[Stu]

I'm in a 'pinky red' zone, though am just south of Heathrow which means my view anywhere near north is rubbish!

Zenith NELM is around 4.2 on most nights, but can approach 5 on exceptional nights. I've been doing some work on sky brightness and visibility of targets lately, and whilst it makes depressing reading, it helps to focus on targets which are likely to be visible!

I reckon my skies are around 18.5 magnitudes per square meter, which is not great. Basically it means many of the low surface brightness galaxies are either invisible to me or not worth trying for.

This doesn't mean I should give up, but does mean it makes sense to focus on brighter objects ie planets, globular clusters, a few planetary nebulae and the better open clusters which tend to have higher surface brightness.

Galaxies and the larger, fainter nebulae are not really worth trying for except for a few like M31 or M81/82, so I save these for rare visits to darker skies.

Stu

[robgazer]

Thanks for your reply,

One of the main reason why I'm buying the Heritage 130p is so many of its owners keep them when they upgrade or wish they kept them (it must be a decent scope?).

Setting up a tripod based telescope, then dismantling and storing it again does not really appeal to me, with our climate I might be taking it outside and bringing it back in three times night. I don't think it would be much appreciated being left in the kitchen while waiting for breaks in the clouds and I wouldn't be too bothered carrying one up and down the stairs 3 times a night.

[robgazer]

Hello Blazar,

Thanks for your reply,

I've had a look at Turn Left At Orion on Amazon, lot of people like that book. I've got it for free though, my library had some copies and I've reserved one.

I actually bought a Phillips star map a while back, but I find it awkard to use in the dark.

[robgazer]

Hello AstroJon,

Comment #17 was for you.

[AstroJon]

I've found it to be an excellent scope and had some realy nice views with mine. Although I intend to get a 10" dob at some point I will be keeping the Heritage, I can always see a need for having a 5" optically sound scope that I take outside and setup in seconds. It is a nice height for the kids to look through too.

[dick_dangerous]

I'm in the bright white zone that is London, and it is certainly a frustrating place to be when you're from the New Forest and take the Milky Way for granted. Not sure what my NELM is, but I can see a surprising amount when I get down into the park. On exceptional nights you'll be surprised what you can find - if the sky clears after a day of rain or a thunderstorm then these often yield the best results. Likewise for the freezing cold winter nights we haven't had this year! The trick is to choose carefully what you observe.

The moon and planets are bright enough that LP doesn't matter (Although the air pollution ruins good views), and I've seen tonnes of detail on Jupiter, even with the smaller telescope.

Double stars are always good, and I've even split relatively difficult ones like Polaris in a 3'' telescope from the park.

A surprising number of Messier objects can be located from relatively light polluted areas. Right now, easy wins include:

• The Andromeda Galaxy, M31 - Early in the evening - don't expect too much!
• The Orion Nebula, M42 - Beautiful wherever you are
• The Pleiades, M45 - Best viewed in binoculars or a wide-field telescope, like the one you're buying
• Praesepe, M44 - Best seen later on at the moment, best with binoculars in my opinion.

Once you've got used to finding those, then here's a list of more challenging objects that are visible under light pollution with a 3'' refractor (So should be easy with a Heritage): M81, M82, M35, M36, M37, M38, M1 (yes, really!), M41 and M50.

A portable telescope is also a huge boon because if you go out somewhere like North Wales with a Heritage it will blow the socks off an instrument twice its size that's stuck in the middle of Merseyside. Probably isn't going a plane with you though...

DD

[robgazer]

Hello ardberg74,

Thanks for your reply.

I've laid out a few reasons in comment #17 why I want a small dobsonian.

For 5 inch vs 6 inch, from what I've read, put them side by side and there's not lot in it, Skywatcher only do a solid body 6 inch that is not as portable as the heritage 130p.

If I do upgrade to an 8 inch (probably in 6 months – 2 years) I'll have the 6 inch next to the 8 inch, the 6 will be heavily out gunned by the 8 but with none of portability of the heritage 130p and probably sold.

I was tempted by the 8 inch and even looked at the 10 inch, but I have to be honest with myself and admit I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve and from what I've read the bigger the mirror the more problematical the telescope is to use.

[robgazer]

Hello BigMakStutov,

Thanks for your reply.

From what people have been saying including yourself, I should get what I want and that was a decent improvement over a pair of 10x50 bins.

The odd wow here and there will make me happy.

[Stu]

Hello BigMakStutov,

Thanks for your reply.

From what people have been saying including yourself, I should get what I want and that was a decent improvement over a pair of 10x50 bins.

The odd wow here and there will make me happy.

Yes, I think it would be a good choice for you. It's quick and easy to setup, simple to use, has enough aperture to show you some nice sights but is not too much effort to setup.

I'm a big believer in having scopes you use rather than going for too much aperture which you struggle to find the motivation to setup very frequently. I have two smallish refractors which get used quite often, are limited in what they show but are lovely to use.

Go for the brighter objects rather than struggling to get the low surface brightness galaxies etc.

Stu

[robgazer]

Hello dick_dangerous,

Thanks for your reply.

It's heartening that something with a telescope can be seen even in a white zone. My expectations aren't so I high, but I would like the odd wow moment occasionally, from what has been said on here I should have a few of those moments.

Milky Way from the New Forest, up until I witnessed the miracle in the Hoch Schwartzwald I thought it was all camera wizardry and air brushed pictures, but it does exist even in this country.

I'll have to get to a dark site I'm curious how far I'd have to go to see this spectacle again.