Reliable 30m USB mount control? (Achieved!)

[Macavity]

For some time, my intention to remote control my scope mount (observatory!) from a distance (30 metres) has been frustrated by a succession of *naff* USB extenders. lol. My general conclusion: Internet reviews are right - Despite claims to the contrary, *most* "USB extenders" (£5 to £50) don't actually *work* ... uhm... very well!

Taking inspiration from our "transatlantic cousins" (big scopes, remote observatories!) I noted the company ICRON, with their "Extreme USB" technology etc. Whatever the publicity blurb, demonstrating an appreciation of the BASIC problem! A pair of local / remote units simulate (generate local handshake signals) a standard 5m USB link over 40m+

For basic control of a typical Astronomer MOUNT, the data transfer rate is not a problem...

To cut a long story short, I am now the proud owner of a USB 1.0/1.1  ICRON Rover 1850!

http://www.amplicon.com/Data-Comms/product/USB-USB-USB-4654.cfm (A snip at £70?)

The recommendation is for *screened* and *solid core* CAT5e cable. Addition of a USB Hub reduces the range to 25m? But I have just "soak tested" (A very wet and windy night!) my HEQ5 mount via EQMod...via a HUB... It worked just fine! Looks like I now have 100% USB reliability! 

NO LINKS to the above company, but good Technical & Sales support!

I believe they added my order to their standard 2-weekly shipment? 

If I want something more exotic, they have £250 USB 2.0 links, etc. etc.

[Macavity]

P.S. I have been testing these (various) USB links with:

http://www.vconsole.com/client/?page=page&id=13

Read/Write/Verify Flash Drive tests - Speed reports etc.

[ChrisLX200]

I have to agree about the effectiveness of a long USB link - for some things anyway. My main camera, guide camera and filter wheel all work very well over the long (15m) cables I have - which were a cheap purchase off ebay. However, my Gemini control box for the G11 mount (with its necessary USB-Serial converter) hates it. That has given me headaches for 2-3 weeks now and those problems are still not resolved. If I slew the mount at normal slewing speed (800x) it instantly drops the connection, only by reducing the slew rate to a snail's pace (200x) can I get any sort of reliable connection. I've tried all sorts to fix it, different hub, cables, USB>Serial converters, endless mucking around with port parameters, all with no lasting improvement. I just don't know for sure where the issue lies but it doesn't help that the Gemini connection does not implement any handshaking at all. When the connection is dropped it instantly reconnects on a different virtual port which screws everything. I should add it does work perfectly with a 2m USB cable - only the 15m (or a 10m which I tried) extention causes these problems.

I resolved that  the only remaining possibility was to use a short USB cable and extend the Serial cable to 15m, hoping the serial connection would be more robust at longer lengths (running +/- 12v) than the USB. I haven't tried that yet for lack of any suitable screened cable of that length.

Your solution is interesting but for two things:  it only runs @ USB1.1 speeds (useless for the CCD camera) and the price!

ChrisH

[ChrisLX200]

I should add... A friend uses 3x 5m USB repeater cables daisychained together and does not have a problem with his mount (a different mount to mine though). I would have thought daisychaining 3 short cables would have been a no-no but apparently not.

ChrisH

[perfrej]

Put a computer by the mount, for heaven's sake. The long USB cable thing does not feel good in my bones. I realized this early on and have not had any such problems since. There are lots of cool, small computers available and they can be controlled via remote desktop.

/per

[Macavity]

Put a computer by the mount, for heaven's sake. The long USB cable thing does not feel good in my bones. I realized this early on and have not had any such problems since. There are lots of cool, small computers available and they can be controlled via remote desktop.

A working solution to a specific problem. No greater claim than that?

Two small boxes, no drivers, no boot issue, same CAT5e cable etc.

Personally, I'm trying to reduce the number of PCs I own / maintain.

I'm impressed by this "technology". Might even solve some problems...

[Gina]

I hate USB!!!

[perfrej]

I have to second Gina. I have solved that, for remote setups, by using my upcoming Astrobox. It has a built-in USB hub with software switchable ports (three of them in present incarnation, four or five in the upcoming production version). The switching is done on both power and data leads so it is equivalent to a physical unplug/re-plug. So, without re-boot I get fresh USB connections on every night's startup - which of course is totally automated through ACP Scheduler.

The switched ports have solved all my USB problems! Apart from that, I think it is mostly the connectors that are fiddly.

/per

[Macavity]

I think a lot of (Astronomer?) problems are re. [uSB and other!] connectors?

(Obviously) Great work, Per! As ever, your work exceeds professional standards!

As the man with "10 micron" (observatory class) mount, <respect> - As they say.

But (importantly) some of us are constrained to work with lesser hardware?

There are literally DOZENS of these "USB Extenders" on the market. They work to "varying" reliability.

I believe the "Icron Guys" (I have no commercial interest!) have SOLVED the "timing / handshake"

issues. (At least they aknowledge them!) - AND thereby they have solved my particular issue.

They seemingly conform to USB-IF standards, collaborate with "Imaging Source" (Astro Cameras) etc. 

"Industrial Strength" stuff costs that little bit more? But I now have a RELIABLE 30m USB link.

It controls my HEQ5 (24H without error for the first time!) - Albeit at 0.9MB(ytes) / second.  

If I am to be a minor contrarion re. the thread: I get a BIT "fed up" when my *enthusiastic* attempt to

increase general knowledge of "DIY Astronomy" is met with the "I wouldn't do it like that" syndrome?

I KNOW *Remote Desktop* is the "Astronomer Way". But you get to promote ideas / products too...

[Gina]

Please continue to inform us of alternatives and variations - all knowledge is good

[perfrej]

I think a lot of (Astronomer?) problems are re. [uSB and other!] connectors?

(Obviously) Great work, Per! As ever, your work exceeds professional standards!

As the man with "10 micron" (observatory class) mount, <respect> - As they say.

But (importantly) some of us are constrained to work with lesser hardware?

There are literally DOZENS of these "USB Extenders" on the market. They work to "varying" reliability.

I believe the "Icron Guys" (I have no commercial interest!) have SOLVED the "timing / handshake"

issues. (At least they aknowledge them!) - AND thereby they have solved my particular issue.

They seemingly conform to USB-IF standards, collaborate with "Imaging Source" (Astro Cameras) etc. 

"Industrial Strength" stuff costs that little bit more? But I now have a RELIABLE 30m USB link.

It controls my HEQ5 (24H without error for the first time!) - Albeit at 0.9MB(ytes) / second.  

If I am to be a minor contrarion re. the thread: I get a BIT "fed up" when my *enthusiastic* attempt to

increase general knowledge of "DIY Astronomy" is met with the "I wouldn't do it like that" syndrome?

I KNOW *Remote Desktop* is the "Astronomer Way". But you get to promote ideas / products too...

Thanks!

I agree that all ideas should be brought forward and didn't mean to put anybody's ideas down

I plan to make version two of the Astrobox available for a low price, so it can be within range for all in the community. I cannot promise where it will land, but current estimates point at less than £175 for the board assembled. Version two will have a few interesting designs that are currently fresh out of testing. Check this out:

• Four 12V switched with possibility for PWM
• Software settable non-destructive fuse on all 12V outputs
• Current measurement on each 12V port
• Possibility of extending to two more 4-port daughter boards for 12V switching (total 12 of them)
• Roof or dome motor drive (12V) with sense switches
• Focuser stepper controller
• I2C connectors for display, ethernet port and future extensions (for instance to make it a complete weather station as well)
• Barometer and thermometer
• My special USB port with totally switchable ports (4 or 7 ports)
• Switched USB ports can be associated with a corresponding 12V
• ASCOM drivers for focuser, dome and power switching
• Serial or USB for control from computer (or Ethernet if fitted)
• And some more thingies...

Since this is developed as a hobby project, the projected cost is low. Low cost demands surface mount technology so the boards have to be manufactured. Not a project for self-assembly

/per

[oldpink]

the way I got around a lot of extended cables was to use my laptop situated at the telescope to run the mount and record the camera's
from my room I remote desktop to the laptop and control everything from my room using EQMOD, stellarium, alignmaster etc
only issue I have is I need to set my limits, almost had the back of the telescope hit the goto box on the tripod leg

[Macavity]

Ultimately, whatever works? And my £80 Icron boxes do work. To get technical, one could debate "scaleability", but...

I get my 30m reliable USB 1.1 rates for mount / focus control now. My VIDEO Cam signals happily run over simple coax.

I personally LIKE the idea that I do not need a Laptop at the observatory end. "Welsh Weather" played havoc with 

a rather nice monitor left out in my obsy for quite a short time? Much of my stuff is "non-expendable" these days?

FWIW, I do now use TeamViewer, but in "reverse" sense i.e. for controlling the "lounge" PC from "obsy" Netbook! 

But JUST while setting up the scope, first star alignment etc. TBC in the VIDEO Astronomy forum as of now...

I'm sure our common problem is a FEAR of "hardware collisions"!

I monitor things with a tiny, sensitive "Ex-View" security cam, but...