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Advice on complete dome setup with all equipment.


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Greetings space lovers,


This is my first of many posts.  I’m interested in learning as much as I can about the best full dome setup I can get for my home.  A little background, my wife and I are currently students at Columbia University.  We both took many years off in the workforce and have since gone back to get our education on.  I was intending to be a physics major but have recently shifted to computer science.  We both took Astronomy and have absolutely fallen in love with it.  My wife wanted to minor in it after she took it but she couldn’t because she was too far along.  I’m on my second Astronomy class and will be taking observational astronomy next semester.  Despite all that we have little to no knowledge of telescopes at this point.  I’m sure I’ll learn quite a bit next semester but clearly not nearly as much as the combined knowledge there is here.


My wife and I are renovating a place in Brewster NY over the next several months.  Part of the building has a circle that is about a 10 foot diameter that goes through all the floors and then on the top it extends up past the roof.  Currently, from the roof there is a door which allows you to enter the standalone room which again is about a 10 foot diameter by likely 12 feet high.  I know this post will seem very silly as we’re just starting out but we would like to make a very good observatory in that room with a movable dome on top.  We’re not even sure exactly what we’re going to get into looking at but I would like to future proof it for future desires for some time to come.  The budget is very flexible, we want something great and complete but it doesn’t have to compete with the government or anything.lol There is a tremendous view which is nearly to the horizon on the southern side and a very good view in all other directions.  Additionally, being over an hour from the city the light pollution isn’t terrible.  If you had say around 15-30k to build a dome, get a telescope, and other equipment, what would you get?  I’ve already got a Canon 5D which I’d hope to use in conjunction with the setup.  I’d want it to be able to be computer controlled, which I'm assuming I can use my MacBook Pro with.  Truth be told I’m not sure what else there is that we might want.  


I do realize the absolutely ridiculousness of this post.  But that said, life is ridiculous and it’s a serious question.  I’ll have to start purchasing in the next few months. I feel as lucky as a modern day Tycho Brahe and god willing I'll be just as productive to the science.


Thank you for all your help and what I'm sure is to be continued help along my journey.  :)


Best,

Gene

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Old wisdom always says don't build an observatory as part of another inhabited building.  The main reasons being heat - currents of warm air ruining the seeing above the building, and vibration - any vibration from the building will be transmitted to the mount and the scope.  However some folk have successfully built "home" observatories and claim that they work.  If you have outside space you may well find things easier to build a separate structure.

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Old wisdom always says don't build an observatory as part of another inhabited building.  The main reasons being heat - currents of warm air ruining the seeing above the building, and vibration - any vibration from the building will be transmitted to the mount and the scope.  However some folk have successfully built "home" observatories and claim that they work.  If you have outside space you may well find things easier to build a separate structure.

Makes sense.  Unfortunately we have no other choice on where to put it.  :/

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Although the advice about thermals coming up from the house is correct I don't see it as a difficult or expensive task to fully insulate under the roof and dome. Let's face it; I understand that it can get quite ... nippy in the Winter months in NY State so you'll be doing that anyway. However if the house is timber framed, as I assume it's likely to be, you may find there may be considerable vibrations being transmitted to the dome's underpinnings. Be prepared to need extra support once it's in place and the scope is jerking around all over the heavens. Should this happen I'm afraid that the only practical solution would be to install steel beams going down below the foundations of the house to give a stable base for good seeing. However I wish you all the luck in the world in your endeavours. Make us proud to have you as a member of the lounge.

 thumbup.gif  Heeeyyy!

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Although the advice about thermals coming up from the house is correct I don't see it as a difficult or expensive task to fully insulate under the roof and dome. Let's face it; I understand that it can get quite ... nippy in the Winter months in NY State so you'll be doing that anyway. However if the house is timber framed, as I assume it's likely to be, you may find there may be considerable vibrations being transmitted to the dome's underpinnings. Be prepared to need extra support once it's in place and the scope is jerking around all over the heavens. Should this happen I'm afraid that the only practical solution would be to install steel beams going down below the foundations of the house to give a stable base for good seeing. However I wish you all the luck in the world in your endeavours. Make us proud to have you as a member of the lounge.

 thumbup.gif  Heeeyyy!

Thank you!  To make this more ridiculous the house is actually a stone castle.  This lends me to believe there shouldn't be much in the way of vibrations.  Is it as good as being on the ground, probably not, but it's a seriously solid structure.   Also, there's no way we'll be able to run steel down to the ground.  In the image you can see the high circular point on the left side.  That cylinder is a room whose floor is even with the rest of the roof.  The idea is to replace the circular roof with a dome and use the room as the observatory.

Best,

Gene

post-32837-0-99381200-1384116561_thumb.p

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Hell's teeth thou hast gold my liege. Thy turret must be solid as God's green earth! I pity the poor varlet that would'st try to invest thy palace. Few siege engines could worry thee whilst holding fast inside there ere thou'st sally forth with thine army to lay waste to such a scoundrel and his rag tag band of wolf's heads.

On the other hand the foundations of a dome put there should ride out anything less than a 5.3 on the Richter scale. You should find that placing a dome in place of the current roof might be a little more complicated than it appears at first glance. Sealing aginst rain all round and making sufficient drainage gutters is vital under these conditions!

Go for it.

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Hell's teeth thou hast gold my liege. Thy turret must be solid as God's green earth! I pity the poor varlet that would'st try to invest thy palace. Few siege engines could worry thee whilst holding fast inside there ere thou'st sally forth with thine army to lay waste to such a scoundrel and his rag tag band of wolf's heads.

On the other hand the foundations of a dome put there should ride out anything less than a 5.3 on the Richter scale. You should find that placing a dome in place of the current roof might be a little more complicated than it appears at first glance. Sealing aginst rain all round and making sufficient drainage gutters is vital under these conditions!

Go for it.

Awesome reply....and noted not he sealing!

Does anyone have any input on equipment?

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The equipment you need depends entirely on what you want to do / view with it. Different objects have very different requirements. Are you thinking purely of imaging or will you be spending time observing through eyepieces as well? Deep sky (large faint object like nebulae and galaxies) or solar system (small bright planets). These are at either end of the scale, kit wise.

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The equipment you need depends entirely on what you want to do / view with it. Different objects have very different requirements. Are you thinking purely of imaging or will you be spending time observing through eyepieces as well? Deep sky (large faint object like nebulae and galaxies) or solar system (small bright planets). These are at either end of the scale, kit wise.

This was a concern I had.  I realize I'm putting the cart before the horse here.  I can't say exactly what I'm going to be most interested in.  My school has an observatory on the roof and they use a Meade LX200ACF.  Since I'll be using it frequently next semester I imagine I'll get into whatever aspect that telescope is best suited for (do you know?).  As my other hobby is photography I'm certain I'll get into imaging.  Do imaging and viewing have to be independent of each other?  I admittedly am very short on knowledge here and sadly my timeframe on this is coming earlier than I would hope.  Any information I could get, even the most basic, would be a huge help.  

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hells teeth!!! thas a nice castle mate!

No reason you couldnt put a dome on that, if you could waterproof it. Then fit a pier and install 'one mount to suit them all' type of thing. Like an eq8. That would allow you to put a 10" newt for visual stuff covering planetary and deep space. You could also explore the dark side with a nice 80mm frac for imaging too.

hmmm, would an eq8 cope with a big newt and an imaging rig dual mounted i wonder?

properly jealous

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hells teeth!!! thas a nice castle mate!

No reason you couldnt put a dome on that, if you could waterproof it. Then fit a pier and install 'one mount to suit them all' type of thing. Like an eq8. That would allow you to put a 10" newt for visual stuff covering planetary and deep space. You could also explore the dark side with a nice 80mm frac for imaging too.

hmmm, would an eq8 cope with a big newt and an imaging rig dual mounted i wonder?

properly jealous

 Thank you!  So one is very limited by the mount you get?  When I was looking at something like a LX200ACF I saw it came with a mount, I think.  Does one normally order a telescope with mount or find a separate one?  So would one get a LX200ACF and then some kind of big newtonian in addition?  I need seriously low level advice! lol

btw...what kind of Audi?  I love me some cars. :)

Best,

Gene

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The Meade LX200ACF is best suited to being replaced by something better! Lots of beginners rush into buying SCTs before understanding what they can and can't do. This is what I did. SCTs are decent visual scopes but they box you in, rather, with their long focal lengths. For imaging they are excellent with small chip fast frame cameras (originally webcams) for planetary imaging. Google Damian Peach to see the master's work. Universities are full of SCTs. Lord knows why.

For deep sky imaging of nebulae you'd be amazed at how good small telescopes are. A fine apochromatic refractor of 85mm upwards with a monochrome CCD camera (far, far better than a DSLR) can get results such as seen on the DS imaging board all the time. Mine from Takahashi 85 and 106mm scopes are like this.

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/i-rNfQT5R/0/X3/M42%20WIDE%202FLsV3-X3.jpg

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/i-FBFJBML/0/X3/IC405%2011%20HRS%20RED%20DOWN-X3.jpg

The most important thing you need is a good and accurate mount, almost certainly with autoguider. These start at about £700 (UK) and go on right up to £20K or so. The bigger the scope the more the mount will cost and the longer the focal length, the more accurately it will have to guide. This last point is not made with sufficient force on most threads.

For the galaxies, other than M31, M101 and M33, you need a focal length beyond the range of mortal refractors. Many people have at least two focal lengths available, but once you get to much over a metre of FL you need to start thinking about the more up market mounts if you want the system to perform to its limits comfortably.

Lots of things in astrophotogramy are highly counter intuitive so a bit of reading goes a long way. Making Every Photon Count, by Steve Richards, would be a good starter. Read before you spend.

I love your castle! A touch of the Tychos for sure...

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!p=4&n=24

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I think something like this might be suitable  :smiley:

Glorious, but what do you do with an F12.2 refractor? Observe the planets and split doubles, but then what? It's way too slow for DS imaging. On the other hand it's perfect for a castle top observatory!!!  :grin:

Olly

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btw...what kind of Audi?  I love me some cars. :)

slightly o/t - but its a 2002 audi quattro a6 allroad 2.7 twin turbo. it sucks petrol at rather an alarming rate - but it has been tweaked (ecu remap, uprated intercoolers and uprated maf, DVs etc) and pumps out over 300bhp. Complete with bilstein coil conversion (air suspension sucks) and uprated anti sway bars. Practical vehicle, but still able to be a hooligan  :evil:

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slightly o/t - but its a 2002 audi quattro a6 allroad 2.7 twin turbo. it sucks petrol at rather an alarming rate - but it has been tweaked (ecu remap, uprated intercoolers and uprated maf, DVs etc) and pumps out over 300bhp. Complete with bilstein coil conversion (air suspension sucks) and uprated anti sway bars. Practical vehicle, but still able to be a hooligan  :evil:

Awesome!  That's sounds like a ton of fun.  I've got a JCW Mini pushing around 250hp and a ton of torque, jcw suspension, brakes w/ss lines, and took the rear seats out.  Fun little hoonigan. :)

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So i spoke with my astronomy teacher and he recommended the celestron edge HD pro 14".  He said it's flexible enough that I'll be able to see anything I want and it should last a long time.  

He also said a ObservaDome or a AshDome is the way to go.  Also I should get a pier setup.  This all sounds good and sets me off in the right path.  

Any suggestions on what else I would need?  I'd like to be able to hook it to a computer and to do imaging with it.

Thank you!

Best,

Gene

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I think something like this might be suitable  :smiley:

So I, ignorantly, email this guy just to see what's up.  I had no idea the range of an acceptable offer.  He said he's open to any offer but it's been listed in the past for $795,000.  wow!  I had no idea they could get up there for the amatures.  Maybe next time. lol

Best,

Gene

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The Meade LX200ACF is best suited to being replaced by something better! Lots of beginners rush into buying SCTs before understanding what they can and can't do. This is what I did. SCTs are decent visual scopes but they box you in, rather, with their long focal lengths. For imaging they are excellent with small chip fast frame cameras (originally webcams) for planetary imaging. Google Damian Peach to see the master's work. Universities are full of SCTs. Lord knows why.

For deep sky imaging of nebulae you'd be amazed at how good small telescopes are. A fine apochromatic refractor of 85mm upwards with a monochrome CCD camera (far, far better than a DSLR) can get results such as seen on the DS imaging board all the time. Mine from Takahashi 85 and 106mm scopes are like this.

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/i-rNfQT5R/0/X3/M42%20WIDE%202FLsV3-X3.jpg

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/i-FBFJBML/0/X3/IC405%2011%20HRS%20RED%20DOWN-X3.jpg

The most important thing you need is a good and accurate mount, almost certainly with autoguider. These start at about £700 (UK) and go on right up to £20K or so. The bigger the scope the more the mount will cost and the longer the focal length, the more accurately it will have to guide. This last point is not made with sufficient force on most threads.

For the galaxies, other than M31, M101 and M33, you need a focal length beyond the range of mortal refractors. Many people have at least two focal lengths available, but once you get to much over a metre of FL you need to start thinking about the more up market mounts if you want the system to perform to its limits comfortably.

Lots of things in astrophotogramy are highly counter intuitive so a bit of reading goes a long way. Making Every Photon Count, by Steve Richards, would be a good starter. Read before you spend.

I love your castle! A touch of the Tychos for sure...

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!p=4&n=24

Olly,

Thank you for all the excellent information.  My teacher said the SCT is the way to go, and since he'll be teaching me how to use these things next semester I think I'll go that route.  He said you can still get pretty good deep sky with the Edge HD because it's adjustable.  Would the mount that comes with the telescope be able to guide it with sufficient accuracy or should one get the scope without the mount then buy a better mount?

Thank you!

Best,

Gene

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So i spoke with my astronomy teacher and he recommended the celestron edge HD pro 14".  He said it's flexible enough that I'll be able to see anything I want and it should last a long time.  

He also said a ObservaDome or a AshDome is the way to go.  Also I should get a pier setup.  This all sounds good and sets me off in the right path.  

Any suggestions on what else I would need?  I'd like to be able to hook it to a computer and to do imaging with it.

Thank you!

Best,

Gene

Well, I'm going to disagree with your Prof. The Celestron C14 has a focal length of an utterly monstrous 3.91 metres. This means that, even in the widest of widefield eyepieces, your field of view is going to be very limited. I have a far smaller SCT here with a FL of 2.5 metres. Quite honestly I find this a boring telescope to use because of the cramped field.  It's fine on some things but I also have a 20 inch F4 which collects four times as much light and still has a wider field of view! So my question is, In a large dome where you have room for a 14 inch or larger Newtonian telescope what is the advantage of  such a long focal length? The only answer I can come up with is that it will give great planetary views and planetary images with a fast frame camera. For the rest it will be a pain.

Deep sky imaging; the C14 is F11. Uesless! No other word for it. Exposure times for this scope would be 4.84 times longer than with a Takahashi FSQ refractor. A 10 hour image in the F5 scope would take 48.4 hours in the C14. (Note that they would not be used on the same targets or take the same pictures, so I'm not falling into 'the F ratio myth' but pointing out the comparitive signal strength on the chip. It's signal to noise which matters, whatever your target.) Celestron now do a focal reducer which brings the scope down to F7.7, which is still slow and the corrected field will no longer cover a full frame chip. This kind of focal length is great for small planetaries and distant galaxies. The nebulae are out. They won't fit on the chip. Is this what you want? I image at FLs of 530, 980 and 2380mm. I like having them all available. Being limited to just the big one would be frustrating. For one thing, it not only needs clear nights, it needs nights of stable seeing. Shorter FLs are more productive. If you go for this kind of FL, though, buy a serious mount. Paramount, Mesu, 10 Micron, Astro Physics. Take lots of advice from practising imagers on what will work at this kind of FL. Don't, whatever you do, believe the adverts. Not many mounts can work at these focal lengths. Trust me, I do this for a living.

I once helped commission a telescope housed in a large Ash Dome. It was stunning. The guy who built it for the owners said that it went together like a dream and just one  small item was missing. This was duly sent immediately. I was really impressed by this dome.

Telescopes; the devil is in the detail! The SCT is a specialized instrument and absolutely not a 'do all.' The little it does, it does well. 

Olly

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stirs with a big stick....

unless he goes with imaging using hyperstar  - which would make it an F1.9 imaging bucket!

but yes - that would be quite a complicated beginnersetup

The Hyperstar is capable of giving good results if it has been persuaded to work properly. Do you want to try to focus an F2 system with a moving mirror, though? I know I don't. Or collimate at F2? Or get the chip orthognal enough for F2? The devil is still in the detail.

Here's a Hyperstar M42, nicely done by a skilfull imager. http://www.dutchastrocolors.com/Nebulae/i-fGkmCnV

But what does it do that this image desn't do from a 3.5 inch refractor? http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Nebulae-and-clusters/i-QdsxNMJ/0/X3/M42CCBOV2010-X3.jpg

Yes, the Hyperstar needed less time but I wonder how long it took to get it sorted. As for the convenience of having F11 or F2, I bet that once you managed to get the Hyperstar working you'd not be keen on taking it out again!

Olly

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agreed - my post was suposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. Hyperstar looks to be a nightmare even for experieced people. as a beginner scope it would not be funny i would imagine.

Gene,

do what Olly says and look at the signatures of peoples kit in the imaging forum. BIG accurate mounts and little expensive triplets with whizz-bang guiding.

But at least with a big mount, you can then hang a decent aperture sct off it for visual stuff when you;re bored of staring at laptops.

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