Horsehead visually?

[Mark at Beaufort]

John I certainly hope you are successful. I understand that Shane (Moonshane) has bought a Skywatcher H-Beta filter so I would like to know how it gets on especially with his 16" Dob.

If all else fails we have SGL9 when hopefully we can compare the 1000 Oaks, Skywatcher and Astronomik owned by Luke and Sarah.

Mark

[astronymonkey]

It seems like a real challenge which is so dependant on dark adaption and light pollution.

Im hoping for SQL 21-22 skies at kielder this weekend and with the weather being quite turbulent there may be some chances of pitch black clear spells but Im not sure how much the upper atomosphere will interfere with the view.

I have a Baader UHC but Im not sure if that will be too severe but Ill have a go at visual in my 16inch and try to frame it in a 22mm Nagler to try to get the optimum exit pupil size for this.

As John says a recce would be useful, but for some reason Its not listed on "Mobile Observatory" and Im not even sure if its on Stellarium (although Ill have to check when I get home).

Certainally a challenge which would be great to be able to strike off the list although from this thread Im aware that Im looking more for a notch than a horse head shape which is a bit of a shame !

Cheers

[bish]

 20" seems to be minimum aperture to see the Pillars but the dark lane in which they are situated can apparently be seen in as little as 8".

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1767325/Main/1765080

That's interesting. I'll have a go with at seeing the dark lane with my 10" if I ever make it to a dark site on a clear night again. I've only seen M16 from heavily light polluted skies.

[John]

As John says a recce would be useful, but for some reason Its not listed on "Mobile Observatory" and Im not even sure if its on Stellarium (although Ill have to check when I get home).

I find this guys website very useful - he seems to have manged to see the HH with a 6" newtonian - he must have good skies !

http://www.perezmedia.net/beltofvenus/archives/000379.html

Maybe search for it using the term "Barnard 33" ?

Edit: It's on Stellarium as IC 434. The position seems correct too.

[swamp thing]

he seems to have manged to see the HH with a 6" newtonian - he must have good skies .

Indeed John. It's kinda tough to know with extended objects just what aperture/skies one needs to see them. Best to just keep trying as many different combos as possible I reckon.

[astronymonkey]

Hi John,

thats a good link and the HH seems bigger than I expected with a 1.3degree FOV in his sketches so Ill get about 2/3 of this field in a nagler 22 I would think.He is also using a 4mm exit pupil so I'll try the 17mm aswell and I should have the contrast somewhere at the right level.

Its interesting to hear that its being viewed with 6inch scopes and 8 inch scopes without filters so I would think this guy has exceptionally dark skies and seeing (it would be interesting to know what SQM readings they have at his opserving sites).

Ill look for it on Mobile Observatory as Barnard 33, I couldnt find it as IC434 or Horsehead.

The pillars of creation also sound like another challenge for kielder this weekend, and I also had Pluto in mind although its going to be a bit low which is a shame

Cheers

[Macavity]

No troll, but perhaps interesting it is (just) visible in real time with my 8" / F4 Newt plus Watec Video Cam.

If you don't mind "diversifying", and want the odd "lifetime experience", perhaps unobtainable otherwise?

[jetstream]

Check out Cleardarksky for an example of his conditions in or near Flagstaf,AZ.A couple of years ago a friend bought a house in AZ,during the mortgage crisis in USA,and offered to let us stay there whever they are not.....I hope to get down to AZ this winter,bring the VX10,drive by Vegas......However I'm going to try from here,if the massive cloud mass ever leaves North America-everywhere but AZ etc!

[John]

As has been said a few times in this thread, I think a whole lot of things need to come together to enable the HH to be seen. Even then I reckon it's going to be one of those "on the edge" targets where you wonder whether or not you are really seeing it !.

It's a great challenge though and, even if not successful, chasing it hones skills that are useful when viewing slightly less challenging objects. After spending 90 minutes or so carefully hunting for the Horsehead I removed the filter and turned the 12" scope on M42 with the 13mm Ethos. As my eye had become well dark adapted and "tuned in" to nebulae I got one of the most spectacular views of the Great Orion Nebula that I've had for a long time 

[mert]

As has been said a few times in this thread, I think a whole lot of things need to come together to enable the HH to be seen. Even then I reckon it's going to be one of those "on the edge" targets where you wonder whether or not you are really seeing it !.

It's a great challenge though and, even if not successful, chasing it hones skills that are useful when viewing slightly less challenging objects. After spending 90 minutes or so carefully hunting for the Horsehead I removed the filter and turned the 12" scope on M42 with the 13mm Ethos. As my eye had become well dark adapted and "tuned in" to nebulae I got one of the most spectacular views of the Great Orion Nebula that I've had for a long time 

When I saw in with my old 12" SCT, the conditions were perfect, the flame Nebula was also visible, when I removed the h-beta filter it disappeared, I wish I had a 13mm Ethos to try with  

[John]

I've been having a bash at the HH tonight with the 12" dob as conditions, before the moon rose at least, seemed pretty good. I could just make out vague traces of the Flame Nebula with the H-Beta filter but nothing definite in the HH area other than some suspected variations in background sky colour here and there. I found a 25mm Celestron X-Cel LX and the Baader 18mm Classic ortho the best eyepieces as their moderate fields of view kept some of the brighter stars out of sight. I managed to see down as far as a mag 12.3 star with the H-Beta filter in place, which seems a reasonable performance but not quite enough to make out the HH obviously. I feel I'm getting to know the region and fainter star patterns pretty well now though which will be helpful in further attempts 

I actually tried both the Lumicon H-Beta filter that I've just bought and the 1000 Oaks H-Beta filter that Mark-at-Beaufort has kindly loaned me for some time now and I really could not see any difference between these two filters at all. They both seemed to produce a very similar looking background sky and stars appeared more or less identical. Their specifications are very similar so their very similar performance should not be a surprise.

[mert]

I've been having a bash at the HH tonight with the 12" dob as conditions, before the moon rose at least, seemed pretty good. I could just make out vague traces of the Flame Nebula with the H-Beta filter but nothing definite in the HH area other than some suspected variations in background sky colour here and there. I found a 25mm Celestron X-Cel LX and the Baader 18mm Classic ortho the best eyepieces as their moderate fields of view kept some of the brighter stars out of sight. I managed to see down as far as a mag 12.3 star with the H-Beta filter in place, which seems a reasonable performance but not quite enough to make out the HH obviously. I feel I'm getting to know the region and fainter star patterns pretty well now though which will be helpful in further attempts 

I actually tried both the Lumicon H-Beta filter that I've just bought and the 1000 Oaks H-Beta filter that Mark-at-Beaufort has kindly loaned me for some time now and I really could not see any difference between these two filters at all. They both seemed to produce a very similar looking background sky and stars appeared more or less identical. Their specifications are very similar so their very similar performance should not be a surprise.

Excellent report, I found when the Flame was visible the HH was easier to see, took me 10 hours or so to see HH with my 12" SCT last year. I had my dob out over the weekend but by the time the HH was visible the clouds rolled in, M57, M81 & 82 looked incredible instead,  still plenty of time for the HH though

[mert]

Nice clear sky here for now so I'm nipping out to see if I can see the HH while it lasts. Anybody else having a go?

[John]

Nice clear sky here for now so I'm nipping out to see if I can see the HH while it lasts. Anybody else having a go?

Good luck mert - clouded out here 

[mert]

Cheers, even though the sky was clear it wasn't to be, cloudy tonight but Wednesday looks better.

[Rustysplit]

I had a very quick go last night at about 12.30-1am. I was using my 14" dob and the 27mm panoptic and 18mm radian with an Orion H beta filter. I got about the same result as you John. I could just make out variations in background sky in the right areas,  but no real conclusive HH. I feel that I may have glimpsed it, but do not count it as bagged as I could not see it again. I found the Panoptic giving me 68X and an exit pupil of 5.4 seemed to give the "best " contrast. My back garden is nowhere near a dark sky site, so I am fairly confident that this combo will be productive under darker skies.

I found that the more that I tried to concentrate on what I was actually seeing in the varying shades of black and grey, the more my eyes seemed to play tricks. I think it is one of those targets where your mind sees things that may well not be there. The search continues...

[John]

Alan,

That is such a good description of the experience of trying to see the Horse Head 

My eyes were definitely starting to play tricks on me towards the end of my session on this object. I swear I saw the dim outlines of not just the Horse Head but all the other chess pieces too !!!! 

I expect you have seen this but I love reading Jeremy Perez's reports and sketches on trying to see this object:

http://www.perezmedia.net/beltofvenus/archives/000379.html

[Rustysplit]

I had not taken the time to follow the links to Jeremy's notes before, just had a v quick look now and at least his sketches prove I was looking at exactly the right spot. Last nights little hunt was only short, but sometimes these are the best sessions. The previous night was perfect, at least on paper. In reality I abandoned ship after an hour as the oddly light sky and neighbours house lights conspired against me. I have to admit to getting a bit fed up and losing the enthusiasm for a while. Last night was such a tonic by comparison. Short session with very good seeing and transparency, with the added bonus of making headway on a tricky target. Looks like the weather is not going to play ball for a while now for me to have another go. I will have a read of Jeremy's notes....

[John]

When I was viewing the area I could make out a number of mag 12 stars that surround the HH nebula. It is a little frustrating to be seeing these stars and knowing that you are looking at your target object as well but it's just too indistinct to make out on that occasion. 

The nights I've tried so far have been good but not the very best we can have it here, so there is still hope   

[Joves]

I had a very quick go last night at about 12.30-1am. I was using my 14" dob and the 27mm panoptic and 18mm radian with an Orion H beta filter. I got about the same result as you John. I could just make out variations in background sky in the right areas,  but no real conclusive HH. I feel that I may have glimpsed it, but do not count it as bagged as I could not see it again. I found the Panoptic giving me 68X and an exit pupil of 5.4 seemed to give the "best " contrast. My back garden is nowhere near a dark sky site, so I am fairly confident that this combo will be productive under darker skies.

I found that the more that I tried to concentrate on what I was actually seeing in the varying shades of black and grey, the more my eyes seemed to play tricks. I think it is one of those targets where your mind sees things that may well not be there. The search continues...

I know exactly what you mean, Alan. My eyes and mind have gotten very good at perfecting Averted Imagination!

[Joves]

Very interesting (and even more encouraging) that Jeremy's report was done using a 6" Newtonian. Many would consider this to be an impossible feat!

[Beulah]

Nice clear sky here for now so I'm nipping out to see if I can see the HH while it lasts. Anybody else having a go?

Yup - saw the Flame nebula without a filter and i was surprised at how much detail I could see through the 16". Instead of it being a dark trunk flanked by white nebulosity either side with the 8 & 12 inch Dobs, I could ascertain 'branches' coming off the trunk,

Tried the HH and was able to see a strip of slight nebulosity so will hopefully get an H-Beta Filter when I have some money!

That's it for this year as next door has created a Santa's grotto in glorious luminous technicolour...  :-( Bah Humbug.

[Luke]

Wohoo! Sarah and I managed to see the Horsehead last night from home in our 16 inch dob. I don't know what mag our skies are at home, I think of them as okay but not in the same league as the SGL star party or Kelling.

We used a 25mm Tele Vue Plossl, a Paracorr 2 (which I think with its slight barlow effect made the 25mm a good fit for the HH) and an Astronomik H-beta filter with our 400P goto SW dob.

Orion was close to its highest point of the night. It has been a while since we properly chased the HH so I had forgotten exactly where to locate it. While Sarah went to fetch Mark's diagram - there it was, I didn't need the diagram to tell me.

I spent a good few minutes gazing at it, swapping the view with Sarah, gazing again, nudging the view around, focusing and defocusing. Then, while Sarah was looking and I had time to think about having seen the Horsey for the first time since SGL, I think the excitement got to me! I could no longer concentrate and could not see it again when I went back a few times, though Sarah still could!

It took me a good 10 minutes on other objects until my astro eye returned! How odd, somehow you do need to concentrate to be able to see, it would seem?

With hindsight, Sarah and I probably did see the Horsey last year from home but we weren't sure at the time. It was at the darker skies at the SGL star party earlier this year that we definitely saw it for the first time, with Mark, which was especially nice as we'd been using his diagram

Good luck to anyone else chasing the horsey.

[John]

Nice going Luke and Sarah 

I gave it a decent try last night with my 12" dob and my Lumicon and Marks 1000 Oaks H-Beta filters but I could not make anything out that was definitely nebulous and certainly no dark notch in it. 

I can't seem to see past mag 13.5ish stars here even under the best conditions. Thats what comes of living on the edge of one of the fastest growing towns in Europe I guess

It must be really nice to do it from "your back yard" 

[SimonfromSussex]

Well done Luke & Sarah!

It's a great site when the conditions are right.