Progress on Remote Video Astronomy

[Macavity]

Since it was "too quiet"(?), thought I'd ramble on re. my current thinking / progress

on Remote VIDEO Astronomy. <?begin snoring /> We are the hardware guys, Eh?

As background (read later, if you care?):

http://stargazerslou...te-observatory/

(Some of these ideas originate there!)

I am pretty sure I now have "reliable enough" USB connectivity (No failures

over many hours!) between a desktop PC and powered observatory HUB:

http://www.amazon.co...tartech usb hub

This via 30m of Cat6 driven by the following £60 USB Extender:

http://www.amazon.co...dy usb extender

The system is of course limited to USB 1.1 speed (Measured 1Mb/sec) not USB 2.0. But since VIDEO Astronomy doesn't need USB 2.0 cameras (We can use standard coax), this sufficient for ASCOM control of e.g. an EQmod (HEQ5) mount plus motor focusser.

By using TeamViewer "in reverse" (remote control of Desktop PC from observatory PC), my limited Samsung NC10 Netbook, need not run *any* hardware directly. It copes well with hardware, but struggles to run Teamviewer OVER the hardware control. Relieved of the latter, the smaller screen will even "scroll" over a much larger (Desktop PC) area!

Basically, I go outside and switch on the observatory and hardware. Return inside, to fire up Desktop PC (TeamViewer). Back out, with Notebook, start TeamViewer there too! I can then Push "virtual" buttons on my Desktop PC to perform FIRST star alignment in EQMod (Visually then video). I then retire indoors for the rest of the evening / night...

Of course, this method requires more 30m cables (is none too "scalable"!). But, with few bells / whistles, can still be OK. Budget 30m Cables of many types are only £8-10 from CPC Farnell. Of course there is the question of VIDEO cameras - Three of 'em!

The first Watec (whatever) on main scope and two other (budget!) cameras. A second cam on the finder scope and the third to monitor mount movements (watch for hardware collisions or cable snags!) ALL displayed visually on indoor screens. The Watec via USB dongle / capture software. I have a 10" monitor and my main TV for finder / monitor resp.

Skint as ever, I intend to buy ONE of these 0.003 lux "ExView" B&W cameras:

http://www.cameras-c...-pinhole-camera

First to try as "finder cam"! Will it be sensitive enough? Will the (presumed) "Auto AGC" work to show night-time stars? Hoping for at least Mag +4+! If it works, I'll buy a second. If a total failure, it should still be OK as "monitor cam"? <touches wood>

Hope this is of some interest HERE. Most "classic" remote imagers are doubtless happy with TeamViewer or RPC control of a fairly potent (expensive) observatory laptop. One network cable and that's all there is to it? But, over here, we do like a challenge?

Seriously though, thanks for all good stuff on hardware software, cams, fast newts...

Anyway, it's (Solar) Meridian FLIP time here... It's all still going!

But who knows what might happen in the next five minutes?

[shirva]

Was heading in same direction as you Chris but wae carol no getting any better n bored out her head all the time stuck indoors most days..and the front and back garden remake done she needed a hobby"""""" no chance it being astronomy of course"""""so decided to give up my astroshed for it to turned into an avairy. ..

So Davy boy has to start thinking ....what's next ...well I have the az3 at carols with the st102 and the Phil dyer camera going to use the 102 as a visual scope with pd1 on top with a 6 to 60mm auto iris lens..looking to hook this up to a small tv with record function to capture to a sd card..should be a nice wee portable capture set up..keeping the eq3/2 with the ed80 eqmod eqtooth mod in my flat for capture there...hoping to one day do reremote control via internet from carols.

One day hopefully. ...

[Spacedout]

Hi Macavity,

I am also looking to do something similar. Currently I observe remotely from my living room using my TV as my eyepiece and have several cables running from my setup through the patio doors to the TV and to where I am sitting:

- Composite Video/camera power – To the back of the TV

- Camera PC control – To laptop

- RJ45 mount hand controller

- Focuser Controller

Eventually I would like to use another 3 cameras adding further cables:

- Second camera on piggy-back refractor for wider field.

- Third camera with fisheye to work something like an all sky camera attached somehow to the OTA

- Fourth attached to the house to watch the setup for any mishaps!

Currently, the plan is to build some sort of multimedia box outside with all the required ports. I will then have further ports in both my office and lounge so I can use either my TV or my main pc for viewing. This will then mean I can shut all doors and windows when the winter sets in and use much shorter cables both inside and outside for ease when packing up.

I am sure there are easier ways to achieve what I am trying to do but I’ve just not worked it out yet! I do for example have Sky Safari Pro on my i Pad and Sky-Fi to control the scope and reduce at least one cable but I found this really effects Goto accuracy! I found the HC is much better particularly for fine adjustment

Anyway that is the plan for now so let’s see what happens!!

Cheers

Karl

[Macavity]

Thanks for the interest, guys. You're doing a laudable thing, Davy. Sounds good, Karl! I sense perhaps these ideas are more applicable to video astronomy (and astronomers!). In my case the project has dragged on, but mostly due to "lack of central funding" - Although a few "abortive attempts" might have added slightly as well?

I now think there is a lot to be said for the multiple cable solution and / or hard wiring. I was never very keen of leaving laptops outside and keeping a standard PC (permanently) "warm and happy" is not entirely trivial, even in an observatory. Solving each and every problem of wired connectivity (USB and camera control notably) can be (has been!) a bit fiddy, but I think I'm getting there finally?

From: http://www.bisque.co...trol/remote.asp

There is simply no substitute for having a hardware connection from the primary computer to all of the hardware devices at the scope whenever/wherever possible. The principle reasons are performance, cost, ease of use, and hardware maintenance.

Hmmm... Looks a bit chaotic at the moment - But allowed, if you're single? <G> Only remains to drill under the stairs, through a couple of plasterboard (hopefully!) walls, route the cables... via a cupboard... under the kitchen units. Fortunately a previous frenetic DIY'ER (I usually curse him) provided me with a (number of!) random holes in the outer brickwork of the house.

[Spacedout]

Thanks Chris, great link I will explore this further later, fingers crossed for a clear night tonight!

Cheers

Karl

[Nibor]

Chris,

A very useful link - many thanks - I shall be watching this thread with interest!!

[Carl Reade]

If you were to go the full remote hog as it were, using up to three or four cams I cant see why a CCTV pvr (4 channel) could'nt be employed? live four way split screen or individual screen at the touch of a button. The main viewing cam could be split to the main computer. The rest can be widefield and homing in on target (finder cam).

Most of these boxes can now link to an IP address and be shown live on the net via phones and computer.

Just my thoughts, Carl

[Spacedout]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the tip. I had looked at this possibility before on one of my many trips to Maplins I will need to look at this again but in more detail as it could work very well indeed!

Cheers

Karl

[shirva]

Allready checked out four channel usb grabber for cctv don't do Windows 7 cheap on the bay ..n my xp laptop battery useless. ....Davy

[Macavity]

Took Time Out to draw a Diagram - Heck even I have difficulty remembering what is done / still to do!

Most of the main ideas / components are now tested. Recently acquired a Two Chan Video Distributor.

http://cpc.farnell.c...utor/dp/SR06405

Checked out OK, re. image quality! Might buy the 4-channel version to avoid cascading these boxes.

As before, interested in the performance of 4 x BNC coax to CAT5 Baluns... <nudge> <nudge> ;)

http://cpc.farnell.c...ideo/dp/AV19779

More crucial for this idea is the performance quality of the (£250) USB 2.0 link. (The Last Purchase!)

http://www.icron.com...-0-ranger-2211/

But still cheaper than a new Observatory Laptop. The £60 USB 1.1 version works to 98% but (not uncharacteristically!) slows the PC boot process. I sense windows carefully checks USB hardware for ALL supported functions or somesuch? Speed is not the thing - But I hope the more expensive units have requisite circuitry to circumvent the timing issues of long USB links properly! And, if the worst comes to worst, can still follow the "Teamviewer" herd. [more teasing] - Which I still use, but in the "other" direction... And only during setup (greyed in diagram) - For initial star alignments etc.

[djetman]

Has anyone gone wireless? Not quite as many wires to tangle.

Cheers Dennis

[shirva]

Went as far as eqtooth. Controls the mount wireless. ..camera wise I got a wireless reversing cam system gave up the ghost within 5 min...Rubbish reception. ...focusser I have extension cable for it and was looking at a car winch remote control unit too adapt....no point now my astro shed is now an avairy.

[Macavity]

My idea rather circumvents (dodges!) the issue? I know, from personal experience, that wireless comms is reasonable around this house and in the garden. Put a foot inside the observatory and it effectively disappears. lol. But my "astro" (NC10) notebook is known to have a "useless" WiFi unit. 

Since I had to pipe back video (scope, finder, monitor) cam, via coax, I just threw in a few extra CAT6 cables. There seems to be a "wireless solution" for many things (standards) though - VIDEO, VGA... transmitter-receivers etc. At some cost or other? Remote terminal, via WiFi too. But I also wanted the potential for file transfer - Hardwired networking usually reigns supreme speed-wise?  

Of course, I have to confirm that all my wires are REALLY of outdoor standard.

My (slightly) tongue in cheek "lightning hazard thread" might need addressing...

[Spacedout]

Hello Chaps,

With winter fast approaching I am now looking seriously to making things a little more remote.  As I know absolutely nothing about electrics I will be asking someone in the know who does to install it all but to get the ball rolling I have drawn up a very basic plan of what I'm looking for:

Media Plate.pdf

The idea is to have a media plate outside near the scope that I can simply plug everything into with some extra ports for more cameras as and when I get them.  There will also be some video out from the TV so I can use my projector and screen for next years world cup etc.  I will then have a media plate in my living room if using the TV and one in the office if using the PC.   I can then simply plug in the HC and focus controller on shorter leads.  The idea is be hardwired without all the cables running through an open window/door and right through the house.  This should also help reduce packing up time at the end of a long night.

Anyway as I mentioned I do not have a clue how to go about this and the plan is just a basic idea of what I'm trying to achieve.  All feedback welcomed

Regards

Karl

[Macavity]

Hi Karl! (Thanks for the interest)

Well, as ever, since the audience is KINDER towards oddball creative ideas here.

(Ignore the naysayers and puritan-work-ethic visual astronomers!) [just teasing] 

Nowt wrong with the general idea! (I encourage you!). I think, if you want to have *accessibility* to a typical family TV, there are standard face-plates that might do SOME of this in the £30 - 40 range. By the time you've bought the cables, drillled the holes, perhaps it might be worthwhile looking for one among these!

http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/3904-av-plate-cable-assembly-10m-sg190-face-plate.html (There are MANY others of this ilk!)

I tend to *base* my (VIDEO Astronomy!) "mission control" on my PC desk, rather than the TV? As a single bloke, I'm allowed a "chaos corner".... Hey, I clear things up... Do my own shopping, take care of a CAT etc.

(Ooooh the shame of it!)

As a general TIP, I don't like wiring (crimping etc.) the plethora of  plugs / sockets! (Life's too short!) - IF you need to extend a cable, do a search for "bulkhead connectors" for the particular application you need!

[johnno]

Chris your putting me to shame , that's a lot tidier than my shack, now where is the pan and brush and big bin.

[Macavity]

Chris your putting me to shame , that's a lot tidier than my shack, now where is the pan and brush and big bin.

Heheh. Thanks Johnno - One day soon, these things will all work... WE can all rest easy in our beds etc. etc. 

[shirva]

Aye probably no even put the statue back in its right place. ..or was it an impulse buy and gets put in spare room when rich old Aunt Florence comes visiting incase you upset her and she dosent leave you two million zonga in her will ..lol..Davy

[shirva]

Looking good Chris...I'm Shure you will make a good woman proud. ..my Mrs hates coming to mine...gotta keep it tidy all the time....ok..three scopes strategically placed in living room.....but I pay the damn rent and they sit where I want them. ..lol...Davy

[johnno]

Aye probably no even put the statue back in its right place. ..or was it an impulse buy and gets put in spare room when rich old Aunt Florence comes visiting incase you upset her and she dosent leave you two million zonga in her will ..lol..Davy

 I've been meaning to sell it, use to belong to my old man, will get some nice astro stuff when I sell it

[Macavity]

Ultimately 'tis the STATUE that counts... I suspect. (There is no hope, ultimately!)

[Spacedout]

Nowt wrong with the general idea! (I encourage you!). I think, if you want to have *accessibility* to a typical family TV, there are standard face-plates that might do SOME of this in the £30 - 40 range. By the time you've bought the cables, drillled the holes, perhaps it might be worthwhile looking for one among these!

Thanks for the link Chris looks like that will do at least most of what I want. 

Cheers