Vixen LVW vs Pentax XW vs Delos

[25585]

5 hours ago, Alan White said:

I as an owner of the 22mm LVW fully agree it’s a peach of an eyepiece.

It has been threatened by a ES 24 / 68 but it’s won out after comparison, it’s just a tad more comfortable and as my first wider field has mythical status in my EP collection.

They are discontinued, the ones about must be remaining stocks, they have also gained a premium price on new old stock.

I will be on the look out for some others, missed the 13mm sold by F15rules recently!

There are 13mm LVWs still for sale I noticed when searching for a 22mm. Ditto 17mm ones. 

[Timebandit]

 

4 hours ago, Alan White said:

            

I will be on the look out for some others, missed the 13mm sold by F15rules recently!

 

Apologies Alan. Guilty as charged ☺. I am afraid when a quality eyepiece appears in a focal length I have been looking at. Then I cannot help but buy as just love quality.

 

Have used and still have my Vixen NLV . And it just is optically a quality eyepiece. Unfortunately it does have the twist up eye relief/position plastic cup. So build quality around the optics is not on par with the likes of Pentax XW , but optical wise IMO it is certainly up there with the likes of Pentax.

I am really looking forward to trying the 13mm LVW as with a fov of around 65d then very close to the Pentax XW 70d which I enjoy. And optically from my experience of the NLV  and the reports of the LVW then the 13mm should be optically very sharp. If it's anything like my  Pentax 10 XW then I would be very happy. I look forward to comparing them and having another quality eyepiece in the case.?

[Alan White]

Funnily Timebandit, I have just purchased a Pentax 10mm XW from a forum member, look forward to it.

 

[25585]

4 minutes ago, Alan White said:

Funnily Timebandit, I have just purchased a Pentax 10mm XW from a forum member, look forward to it.

 

Excellent purchase! 

If I can't find a 22 LVW a 20 XW might be the next option, but it has varying pro & con write-ups. 

[25585]

Searching, found 3 European sellers with 13mm LVWs on sale. 

[F15Rules]

5 hours ago, Alan White said:

I will be on the look out for some others, missed the 13mm sold by F15rules recently!

Sorry about that Alan?.

I thought long and hard about the 13mm sale, but I had the chance to by IPeace's Pentax SMC zoom, which is also a wonderful and versatile eyepiece, and I needed to sell one of my EPs to help fund the Pentax.

I still have the LVW22mm and it's going nowhere!

Good luck in finding a 13mm for yourself ?.

Dave

[25585]

Orion Lavanthum eps come with advertised 80 deg AFOV & 20mm eye relief. Not much on CN about them, except recessed eye lens & gen stuff. They are Long Perng so not Vixen Japan made?

[Piero]

I've never looked through a XW or LVW, but I owned two Delos (12mm and 8mm). I found them good optically, although the 12mm was behind the Docter 12.5mm to my eye. I don't want to derail this thread, so those who are interested in this can read my comments from page 3 here: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/539425-docter-and-delos/ . 

Ergonomically, I was not fond of the Delos because of the eye cap mechanism and the chicken leg shape of this eyepiece line. I found the eye cap mechanism awkward to use. I understand this is possibly just me, but I didn't like to rotate the rings, pull it up, rotate them again, and so on. I don't know... just like simple mechanisms like the SLVs or XWs or many other eps. Regarding the chicken leg shape, the Delos are rather long and medium weight eyepieces. To me they should have a 2" barrel by default for better stability. 

Over the few months, I had some thought about the 42mm LVW to combine with the 30mm ES_82 I owned. I guess the 42 LVW would work well on the Tak as low power eyepiece. Eventually I got a 35mm Panoptic which works very well on the Tak and is more different in terms of magnification from the 20mm Lunt than the 30mm ES_82. So, eventually, the 35mm Pan replaced both!  

[John]

1 hour ago, 25585 said:

Orion Lavanthum eps come with advertised 80 deg AFOV & 20mm eye relief. Not much on CN about them, except recessed eye lens & gen stuff. They are Long Perng so not Vixen Japan made?

Orion (USA) used to carry Vixen made stuff in their lineup but not for sometime now as far as I'm aware

There was an Orion badged version of the LVW's which was Vixen made. Before that they simply sold the Vixen LVW's. Then they switched to using a clone of the chinese made Hyperions for this eyepiece niche, the Orion Stratus, which is not as good as the LVW IMHO:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/23297-orion-lvw-vixen-lvw/

I can't find much out about the new 80 degree Orion range other than what is in the thread on them in this section of SGL.

 

 

[Timebandit]

1 hour ago, Alan White said:

Funnily Timebandit, I have just purchased a Pentax 10mm XW from a forum member, look forward to it.

 

 

Alan I think you are going to love the Pentax 10XW. In my opinion I class this eyepiece as "complete" eyepiece. What I mean by this is that it works just as well in my reflector and my refractor. It works very well also in my fast scope,  my f/4.6, and this really is a test of eyepieces  . The build quality is excellent in the Pentax , solid and quality construction . The fov of 70d is nice and wide ,without being overpowering. Great eye relief so very comfortable to use. And has razor sharp optics. And on top of that you get a nice padded bolt case to keep it in☺. The 10XW is one of my most used eyepieces and I think you will love it.?

[25585]

On 11 November 2017 at 14:49, John said:

Orion (USA) used to carry Vixen made stuff in their lineup but not for sometime now as far as I'm aware

There was an Orion badged version of the LVW's which was Vixen made. Before that they simply sold the Vixen LVW's. Then they switched to using a clone of the chinese made Hyperions for this eyepiece niche, the Orion Stratus, which is not as good as the LVW IMHO:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/23297-orion-lvw-vixen-lvw/

I can't find much out about the new 80 degree Orion range other than what is in the thread on them in this section of SGL.

 

 

In the CN posts lateral colour is mentioned. I have not had the chance to see all types & brilliances yet with my Vixen assortment of LV/W eps to evaluate the statements made. 

On Amazon, the 20mm is expensive, Pentax XW price. I would go for the latter if choosing. 

Nothing mentioned about field curvature with the Orions, but not enough posts probably. 

As LV & SLV had/have 20mm fl eps in their ranges, perhaps the Orion 20mm was either an improved version of those, or a shelved Vixen- branded one because too close to the LVW 22mm in focal length (both LV & SLV also had/have 25mm eps). 

 

[Louis D]

5 hours ago, 25585 said:

n the CN posts lateral colour is mentioned. I have not had the chance to see all types & brilliances yet with my Vixen assortment of LV/W eps to evaluate the statements made.

I don't know how I missed that CN thread.  The usable eye relief sounds horrid along with the lateral color.  I'm really glad I went with the Pentax XLs years ago.

I measure eye relief and field of view by blocking an eyepiece mounted in a 2" extension and flashlight into a miter box.  I move the flashlight back and forth shining into the field lens end of the eyepiece to achieve the sharpest projected field stop I can manage before taking any measurements.  Having them too close together can throw off the measurements and project a fuzzy field stop.  I then move the card I project the image onto closer and closer until the image is the smallest point possible.  I measure that separation distance from the top of the eyepiece to get the usable eye relief.  I then move the card back to maximize the image circle to minimize measurement errors.  I then measure the image circle diameter and distance to the card center from the top of the eyepiece.  Using some basic arithmetic and trigonometry, I then arrive at the apparent field of view.

I can't remember if you do this with your eyepieces.  I'd be interested in your LV/LVW measurements.  For my vintage 9mm LV, I measured 18mm of usable eye relief with the eyecup rolled down as far as possible and a 48 degree AFOV.  The 5.2mm and 14mm Pentax XLs come it at 18mm and 65 degrees, respectively.  The 10mm Delos comes in at 18mm and 73 degrees, respectively.  The 14mm Morpheus, 19mm and 78 degrees.

It's interesting examining the projected circle.  I can generally tell if a field stop is razor sharp or fuzzy, if there is a thin blue line next to it, and if the field is unevenly illuminated.  Same thing with eye relief.  If it comes to a single, tiny point, it has a well defined eye relief.  If it is an indistinct point or comes to a smallest point over a significant range of separations, then it is has problematic or finicky eye relief.

[25585]

Effective eye relief for LVs is about 18mm with the cup rolled down, SLVs less due to the rim of its better but not used eye cup when screwed down. 

LVWs cup down eye relief is marginally better than LV, definitely Vixen's best LER ep range. 

I would own a Pentax XW 20mm as the 10 is superb & it's eye cup can be unscrewed & removed completely. But there are unhappy user reports on its optical quality for astronomy. 

[25585]

On 11 November 2017 at 08:07, Alan White said:

I as an owner of the 22mm LVW fully agree it’s a peach of an eyepiece.

It has been threatened by a ES 24 / 68 but it’s won out after comparison, it’s just a tad more comfortable and as my first wider field has mythical status in my EP collection.

They are discontinued, the ones about must be remaining stocks, they have also gained a premium price on new old stock.

I will be on the look out for some others, missed the 13mm sold by F15rules recently!

Astroshop.eu has 13mm LVW for sale €239

[F15Rules]

On 11/11/2017 at 15:29, Timebandit said:

 

Alan I think you are going to love the Pentax 10XW. In my opinion I class this eyepiece as "complete" eyepiece. What I mean by this is that it works just as well in my reflector and my refractor. It works very well also in my fast scope,  my f/4.6, and this really is a test of eyepieces  . The build quality is excellent in the Pentax , solid and quality construction . The fov of 70d is nice and wide ,without being overpowering. Great eye relief so very comfortable to use. And has razor sharp optics. And on top of that you get a nice padded bolt case to keep it in☺. The 10XW is one of my most used eyepieces and I think you will love it.?

I do really like Pentax optics and build. I found a "new old stock" XL 10.5mm in Italy via fleabay over a year ago, for just over £100, and took a punt on it. It was indeed new, with box and original packaging etc..

It's one of my favourite eyepieces. It's "only" 65 degrees, (ie, same as the LVWs), versus 70 for the later model XW, but in terms of sharpness and contrast my barlowed 10.5mm gave up nothing to my eyes to the 5mm XW I used to own.

I just wish Ricoh/Pentax would really design an eyepiece set specifically for astronomy, like they did back in the day with the SMC ortho range?.

Dave

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, F15Rules said:

I just wish Ricoh/Pentax would really design an eyepiece set specifically for astronomy, like they did back in the day with the SMC ortho range?.

No money in it, just bragging rights due to low volumes.  The premium spotting scope market is orders of magnitude larger than the premium astronomy telescope market.  Ever notice no one makes a premium zoom eyepiece strictly for astronomy?  We have to adapt spotting scope zooms such as Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski to astro usage.

[John]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

 ...  Ever notice no one makes a premium zoom eyepiece strictly for astronomy?...

Tele Vue Nagler zooms ?. The 3-6mm is still a current product.

I don't know if the Speers-WALER 5-8 zoom is/was quite in the premium league ?

 

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, John said:

Tele Vue Nagler zooms ?. The 3-6mm is still a current product.

I don't know if the Speers-WALER 5-8 zoom is/was quite in the premium league ?

 

Okay, I'll grant you the Nagler zoom.  Certainly an astro-only eyepiece.

I have the original version of the SW 5-8mm zoom (they also made an 8-12mm) and it is certainly well corrected, but doesn't have the mechanical polish of a big league player.  It also isn't remotely parfocal across its range.

My point is that until amateur astronomy takes off like bird and wildlife watching, hunting prey spotting, surveillance, and target practice spotting, we'll be relegated to using spotting scope eyepieces designed by the big optical houses.  The Nikon NAV-HW and 2" Pentax XW eyepieces are about the only exceptions to this in the last 20 years.  Even the Pentax XO eyepieces could technically be used in spotting scopes even if the astro market was their intended target audience.

[25585]

Read a CN review of an Olivon v LVW comparison. 

Olivon seems like the Orion for 22mm (and Ultima LX). 

As there seem to be no LVW 22s left, but there are 20mm XWs, is the latter next best for quality good eye relief WF low 20mm fl - or what else?

[Louis D]

30 minutes ago, 25585 said:

Read a CN review of an Olivon v LVW comparison. 

Olivon seems like the Orion for 22mm (and Ultima LX). 

As there seem to be no LVW 22s left, but there are 20mm XWs, is the latter next best for quality good eye relief WF low 20mm fl - or what else?

I never bought either the 21mm Pentax XL or 20mm XW because of the reported field curvature.  FC drives me nuts because when I let an object drift through the field of view, I don't want to have to keep touching the focuser to bring it to best focus.  I lived with the 14mm XL's FC unknowingly for years because my younger eyes could accomodate it.  Now, my older eyes cannot and I've been auditioning others for that role.  The 14mm Morpheus also has some FC, but it is only noticeable beyond the XL's 65 degrees, so I cut it some slack.  I wasn't keen on the 14mm Delos because I'd have to get a dedicated low profile adapter to bring it to parfocalness with my other eyepieces.  That trick doesn't work in 1.25"-only focusers, though.

Still opposed to the Olivon/AT AF70 22mm eyepieces?  Do you need a 1.25" eyepiece?  BTW, I detect no FC in my 22mm AF AT70 and it focuses at the shoulder, so it slots right in with my eyepiece collection.  I like that I can unscrew the eyecup to maximize eye relief.  No touching of the eyepiece is required to take in entire FOV for me with eyeglasses.  My backyard is dark thanks to my house to west, bushes and trees to the north and east, so stray light isn't an issue.  The trees in particular are an issue for seeing certain parts of the sky, though.

[25585]

43 minutes ago, Louis D said:

I never bought either the 21mm Pentax XL or 20mm XW because of the reported field curvature.  FC drives me nuts because when I let an object drift through the field of view, I don't want to have to keep touching the focuser to bring it to best focus.  I lived with the 14mm XL's FC unknowingly for years because my younger eyes could accomodate it.  Now, my older eyes cannot and I've been auditioning others for that role.  The 14mm Morpheus also has some FC, but it is only noticeable beyond the XL's 65 degrees, so I cut it some slack.  I wasn't keen on the 14mm Delos because I'd have to get a dedicated low profile adapter to bring it to parfocalness with my other eyepieces.  That trick doesn't work in 1.25"-only focusers, though.

Still opposed to the Olivon/AT AF70 22mm eyepieces?  Do you need a 1.25" eyepiece?  BTW, I detect no FC in my 22mm AF AT70 and it focuses at the shoulder, so it slots right in with my eyepiece collection.  I like that I can unscrew the eyecup to maximize eye relief.  No touching of the eyepiece is required to take in entire FOV for me with eyeglasses.  My backyard is dark thanks to my house to west, bushes and trees to the north and east, so stray light isn't an issue.  The trees in particular are an issue for seeing certain parts of the sky, though.

22mm AF AT70 could be Orion/Orion etc in another guise? 

Removable cup earns points. 

[Louis D]

3 hours ago, 25585 said:

22mm AF AT70 could be Orion/Orion etc in another guise? 

Removable cup earns points. 

Most likely.  All these retailers/resellers market eyepieces made by various Taiwanese/Chinese designers/manufacturers.  They just specify how they want them to look externally and possibly other factors such as coating quality, polish quality, quality control level, etc.  Only a select few design and make their own like Televue, Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss, Leica, Vixen, etc.

[25585]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

Most likely.  All these retailers/resellers market eyepieces made by various Taiwanese/Chinese designers/manufacturers.  They just specify how they want them to look externally and possibly other factors such as coating quality, polish quality, quality control level, etc.  Only a select few design and make their own like Televue, Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss, Leica, Vixen, etc.

Can't find an AT seller at present. Is AT a Lanthanum ep, the Orion LHD 20mm 80 deg stipulates it is, researching further, as the figs make it a Delos, LVW & XW beater. 

On Amazon the 1.25 inch Orion LHD 80 degree LER range have a similar drumstick/maracas shape to TV Delos eps. 

If Vixen are going to just manufacture for other brands, it may explain why LVWs have been discontinued. Possibly they make Delos for TV...

 

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, 25585 said:

Can't find an AT seller at present. Is AT a Lanthanum ep, the Orion LHD 20mm 80 deg stipulates it is, researching further, as the figs make it a Delos, LVW & XW beater. 

On Amazon the 1.25 inch Orion LHD 80 degree LER range have a similar drumstick/maracas shape to TV Delos eps. 

If Vixen are going to just manufacture for other brands, it may explain why LVWs have been discontinued. Possibly they make Delos for TV...

 

AT is Astro Tech which is the Astronomics of Normal, OK, USA house brand.  The name applies to eyepieces, telescopes, and possibly other astro items.  Specifically, the AF70 line which they discontinued is identical to the Astromania 70, Omegon Redline SW, TS Expanse, Tecnosky Superwide HD, etc.

The Orion LHD 80 LER are a new Long Perng offering Orion is exclusively marketing so far.  Only the eyecup differs from what's on that page.  I would think they view similarly to the Nagler T4s since both lines have 30mm eye lenses and 80 to 82 degree AFOVs.  That is to say, tight on eye relief.  30mm is comfortable for 70 degrees, but tight for 80 degrees.  My 14mm Meade 4000 UWA has a 33mm eye lens and views much more comfortably with eyeglasses than the T4s.  Both are 80 to 82 degrees.  The Morpheus line uses 37mm eye lenses for 76 degree AFOV for another comparison.

Vixen for a time to gain better entry into the US market made a deal with Orion USA to first market their products under the Vixen name and later under the Orion brand.  I'm unaware of them doing this with any other retailers.  Eventually, Orion found cheaper (and generally inferior) Chinese clones of all the Vixen items and dropped Vixen entirely years ago.  They did the same with just about all their other non-Chinese suppliers.  I think LVWs were discontinued due to slow sales, and the slow sales were due to high prices for a 20 year old design and a mere 65 degree AFOV.  They seriously needed to update the design to match the Pentax XW, Delos, Morpheus, etc.  I think they made a business decision not to invest in a new design and manufacturing tooling due to a perceived lack of future ROI.

Televue has a captive factory in Taiwan that manufactures strictly for TV and no one else.  Since they no longer patent their eyepieces, it's the only protection they have against rampant copying as happened to TMB's eyepiece designs.  The only eyepiece made by anyone else for TV was their 8-24mm zoom which was made by Vixen for them.  This was not quite the same as their relationship with Orion.

[25585]

53 minutes ago, Louis D said:

AT is Astro Tech which is the Astronomics of Normal, OK, USA house brand.  The name applies to eyepieces, telescopes, and possibly other astro items.  Specifically, the AF70 line which they discontinued is identical to the Astromania 70, Omegon Redline SW, TS Expanse, Tecnosky Superwide HD, etc.

The Orion LHD 80 LER are a new Long Perng offering Orion is exclusively marketing so far.  Only the eyecup differs from what's on that page.  I would think they view similarly to the Nagler T4s since both lines have 30mm eye lenses and 80 to 82 degree AFOVs.  That is to say, tight on eye relief.  30mm is comfortable for 70 degrees, but tight for 80 degrees.  My 14mm Meade 4000 UWA has a 33mm eye lens and views much more comfortably with eyeglasses than the T4s.  Both are 80 to 82 degrees.  The Morpheus line uses 37mm eye lenses for 76 degree AFOV for another comparison.

Vixen for a time to gain better entry into the US market made a deal with Orion USA to first market their products under the Vixen name and later under the Orion brand.  I'm unaware of them doing this with any other retailers.  Eventually, Orion found cheaper (and generally inferior) Chinese clones of all the Vixen items and dropped Vixen entirely years ago.  They did the same with just about all their other non-Chinese suppliers.  I think LVWs were discontinued due to slow sales, and the slow sales were due to high prices for a 20 year old design and a mere 65 degree AFOV.  They seriously needed to update the design to match the Pentax XW, Delos, Morpheus, etc.  I think they made a business decision not to invest in a new design and manufacturing tooling due to a perceived lack of future ROI.

Televue has a captive factory in Taiwan that manufactures strictly for TV and no one else.  Since they no longer patent their eyepieces, it's the only protection they have against rampant copying as happened to TMB's eyepiece designs.  The only eyepiece made by anyone else for TV was their 8-24mm zoom which was made by Vixen for them.  This was not quite the same as their relationship with Orion.

Interesting the FOV & eye relief relationship. For my LVWS - 13, 17, 30 & 42 - eye relief with specs on is just allowing the whole FOV & comfy without unlike any other eps I have except my 10mm XW which is superb. 

The Orion being Lanthanum I was hoping to be on a par with, if not made by Vixen. To see 70 deg of the 80 would maybe be an acceptable compromise. 

TV no longer patenting their designs? Are they no longer unique enough, or maybe only some. The optics industry for consumer glass generally seems less innovative than it used to be.