Final Atik 460 sanity check please

[Freddie]

Got mine Wednesday, may actually get to use it one day soon !!!!!

[steppenwolf]

We looked at and liked the Bailey Pegasus but in the end went for the Lunar Delta RS - more comfort and sophistication than our home in some ways!!

Here's last night's view:-

Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

[Jessun]

And here I was, thinking I caused a thread creep :grin:

/Jesper

PS Decided on the 490...

[kirkster501]

And here I was, thinking I caused a thread creep :grin:

/Jesper

PS Decided on the 490...

Why the 490 Jesper. Discuss your thoughts and rationale for us

[kirkster501]

We looked at and liked the Bailey Pegasus but in the end went for the Lunar Delta RS - more comfort and sophistication than our home in some ways!!

Yes, I was looking at one of those as well at a local dealer. Whats the build quality of the Lunar like Steve? What are you towing it with?

[Jessun]

Ok Steve,

My rationale is pretty much outlined in my post above about getting the same resolution 1.5 times faster (minus effects briefly mentioned). I believe that's where you should start the process as you work out what you need, as governed by your average seeing.

I am in the position of having no scope or CCD suited for travel, so I can start from absolute scratch. It may be dismissed as theory but a 50% gain in speed and a significant gain in FOV strikes me as more than pure number crunching. 3 hours or 2, our choice... (OK, provided I got the theory right... )

Given that someone already HAS a telescope, then I think you'd be hard pressed to no notice a real difference between the two - and both will have on overlapping range of suitable telescopes. But if - like me - you have neither, then I'd lean towards the 490 aiming for a reduced TAK or similar. (Day dreaming again).

Remember I'm thinking travel, short FL, light weight, Sony etc. You have the ED80 and the RC Steve, and then I'd go for the 460. Even with both reduced. The 460 is a galaxy killer in that RC.

As I said the cameras overlap in their use, and some staggeringly good images have been pulled out of the 460 even with scopes as small and fast as the FSQ - Sara's latest bubble with friends for instance, but what I was fishing for was a solid argument against the 490. That loads of people went for the 460 doesn't cut the mustard for me parting with a huge chunk of money. The 460 also came out first on the market in this 'OK Corral' shootout.

/Jesper

[steppenwolf]

Whats the build quality of the Lunar like Steve? What are you towing it with?

Build quality is better than previous Elddis but as usual, spoilt as they all are by penny pinching on items like cupboard handles and mounting of water pipe runs.

I tow with a Mitsubishi Shogun (3200 diesel).

Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

[ollypenrice]

Caravans; I tow an Eriba Puck with - yes - a Fiat Panda (not joking!!!) and when the Panda sees a big German Merc with two axle caravan (I don't say 'van, sorry!) it gets over excited and HAS to blow them off! And it succeeds! Yes! This has nothing to do with me or the fact that I used to be a kart and bike racer. I plead with the Panda to calm down but will it listen? Not a chance. Italian blood.

Ahem, back to sanity. It is pretty simple that the Baby Q costs what it does because it has everything, a large flat field, stunning colour correction, resolution, and freedom from the C-word with regard to focusing. It will deliver great results with a small chip but you'd be wasting money. I found that it wouldn't quite cover the 11 meg Kodak which is, in reality, bigger than the old full frame film format. (Please don't expect Takahashi to notice the passing of film for at least another hundred years...)

460 or 490? Not a clue. You'd need to try them both. WIth the gargantuan pixels of the 4000 you do get a slightly blocky result with the reducer but, by Gad, you get it indecently fast.This is a lot of sky...

Olly

[AlistairHowie]

In case anyone's wondering, that's the 11000 not the 4000 ...

[kirkster501]

Regrettably the 11000 is a none starter! That oil well has not come to fruition in my back garden yet and Mr Rooney at ManU has nothing to fear from Steve's footballing skills

I am going for the 460. As Sara said, can discuss theoretical models essentially forever. I am sure any decent mono CCD would be wonderful but the larger chip size of the 460, allied to a very satisfied user population swings it for me. Will post some unboxing pictures on my blog when I get it, hopefully next week.

[peroni]

This thread has been an interesting read, although my shopping list doesn't extend this far yet...

Just found this when searching for info about imaging circles and thought it might be of use. Although for DLSR I think it would work with CCD's if you put the right sensor info. in.

http://www.astro.shoregalaxy.com/dslr_calc.htm#calculator

[Gina]

This thread has been an interesting read, although my shopping list doesn't extend this far yet...

Just found this when searching for info about imaging circles and thought it might be of use. Although for DLSR I think it would work with CCD's if you put the right sensor info. in.

http://www.astro.sho....htm#calculator

This site works for a huge range of scopes and cameras as well as being able to put your own details in :- http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm You might find it more useful

[sloz1664]

This thread has been an interesting read, although my shopping list doesn't extend this far yet...

Just found this when searching for info about imaging circles and thought it might be of use. Although for DLSR I think it would work with CCD's if you put the right sensor info. in.

http://www.astro.sho....htm#calculator

this is a good site also:-

http://www.blackwaterskies.co.uk/p/imagingtoolbox.html?

cheers

Steve

[FLO]

Don't get it wrong guys, I'm not trying to champion one camera over the other, but trying to get to grips with this particular theoretical shoot out.

Atik clearly thought both cameras have their market. What is their thinking?

The Atik 460EX certainly outsells the Atik 490EX and for low noise noise and high sensitivity, it wins. But only by a small margin because both sensors are from the same stable and the same family so have similar characteristics. The 460EX with it's larger pixels also has greater dynamic range (larger pixels hold more electrons). The difference is in the region of 25-50%. This means you can achieve 25-50% longer exposures without burning out the highlights.

For resolution the 490EX wins. If you are imaging with a short focal length telescope, like a Mini-Borg or camera lens, the 490EX's higher resolution is an advantage. The higher resolution is also an advantage with the colour (OSC) version. This is because for the Bayer colour matrix to work (determine the correct colour) a star needs to cover at least four pixels, more is better. The higher resolution 490EX places more pixels under a star compared to a 460EX so is more likely to determine accurate colour. Again, this advantage applies more to users of short focal length telescopes.

Generally, unless you are using a telescope with an unusually short focal length, we recommend the 460EX for it's lower noise, higher sensitivity and greater dynamic range.

Hope that helps,

Steve

PS: Please feel free to disagree

[kirkster501]

Expect an order from me start of next week Steve when I get paid. Good news all round - the double glazing quote was not as expensive as I thought it would be, relieving me of needing to go to 314 (not that I have told Mrs Kirkster501 that of course )

Is that called "tempting providence?" !

[Jessun]

Thanks for the input Steve, appreciated! I see the dynamic range argument, that is a good one.

But seriously, at the end of the day, 490 is a higher number than 460, so it must be 'one louder'.

/Jesper

(Looking at exchange rates now FLO...)

[swag72]

While I note that Steve says that for a camera lens or a particularly short focal length scope, he would recommend the 490, isn't there also a case for the fact with longer focal lengths you can bin with the 490 and still get a decent resolution?

I thought I'd read that somewhere.

[Gina]

Expect an order from me start of next week Steve when I get paid. Good news all round - the double glazing quote was not as expensive as I thought it would be, relieving me of needing to go to 314 (not that I have told Mrs Kirkster501 that of course )

Is that called "tempting providence?" !

Mine order's already in and awaiting packing and posting

[FLO]

While I note that Steve says that for a camera lens or a particularly short focal length scope, he would recommend the 490, isn't there also a case for the fact with longer focal lengths you can bin with the 490 and still get a decent resolution?

I thought I'd read that somewhere.

Yes, you might have read it in our thread when we announced the Atik 490EX. We posted the chart below.

But then we are in the 'are binned pixels equal to actual pixels' debate...

[FLO]

PSS: I know diddly-squat about caravans...

[kirkster501]

PSS: I know diddly-squat about caravans...

Me and Steppenwolf do Wonder if he writes for Caravan Times?

[steppenwolf]

Nope, I don't but I did have a three page article on GPS and how it would aid caravanners published in 'En Route' magazine back in the 90's when a Garmin GPS 45 was the height of new technology!!

Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

[Sp@ce_d]

This is a terrible thread...

Not only has it upset my roadmap for adding a second 314 to my setup.. (I am now drooling over the 460. )

but even worse.. it has brought back those haunting memories of having to endure countless weekends & holidays stuck in a Sprite Musketeer! Playing endless games of cards with me Mum & Dad cos it was raining (or even worse snowing) ... oh I can smell the gas lights even now...

[Gina]

When I was on holidays with parents (and sister) we always had the first two weeks in August and went to Pembrokeshire, West Wales and it usually rained most of the time

[kirkster501]

When I was on holidays with parents (and sister) we always had the first two weeks in August and went to Pembrokeshire, West Wales and it usually rained most of the time

.... I remember well going to Skegness as kids in the 1970's and it rained and rained every single day for a week, precisely timed to perfectly coincide with our weeks holiday. Of course, there was glorious sun for weeks before to get us excited. But on the day we set off it rained and rained. So much so that mum and dad had to buy some new clothes by the end or go home because everything was wet though and in a caravan couldn't get anything dry. Naturally, when the week we booked was over, glorious sun again!!!!

And here we are all moaning about our astro weather. It rained a lot when we were young too! By heck did it!!!!

There is a parallel here of course. As soon as I get a CCD the rains will start!