Bang location?

[mrstraighty]

Is there any theory prior to the Big Bang? I've only heard of a description just prior to the event and the forces existing then. Where did it occur and what might be the state of the forces prior to coalescing into the event? Multi-verses to me, seem the most plausible and maybe the gravity, electro-magnatism and the strong and weak nuclear exists on the outside of, or posssibly are even the containment of universes? If muli-verses exist than our expansion must correlate to contraction somewhere else? I am also always confounded by whats outside of the limits we've theoretically set. Whats outside the leading edge of expansion? If it's a multi-verse( I picture these in my mind to look like a bubble structure or a molecular compound ) then where does this structure exists? It all takes me back to the question, in what room/space does existence exist? Where did the Big Bang occur?

[JulianO]

The Ekpyrotic universe is a good theory that includes most of the features of the big bang, but also introduces cycles.

[ollypenrice]

You have to be careful with words. If there was a 'before' there wasn't a Big Bang. The word 'before' describes the position in time of one event relative to another. However, the BB is a model in which time came into being at the big bang. There can be no 'before.'

However, time is a demension, so while that particular dimension may have come into being at the BB there may well be other dimensions 'outside' the ones we know. Some of these may be time-like in some way. Who knows? I just think we'd do better to stop saying 'before' the BB and to say 'outside' it instead. Some people will say 'Oh this is just semantics' (usually without knowing what semantics means) but, to me, declaring that one word will do instead of another is like saying there's no need to distinguish between 6 and 13 in mathematics.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that there the BB universe is all that there is or that it appeared from nothing. But nor does it seem reasonable to me that what seems reasonable to me is of any interest whatever to nature. Erm...

Olly

[acey]

Where did the Big Bang occur?

Underneath a car park in Leicester.

(Or everywhere).

[mrstraighty]

You have to be careful with words. If there was a 'before' there wasn't a Big Bang. The word 'before' describes the position in time of one event relative to another. However, the BB is a model in which time came into being at the big bang. There can be no 'before.'

However, time is a demension, so while that particular dimension may have come into being at the BB there may well be other dimensions 'outside' the ones we know. Some of these may be time-like in some way. Who knows? I just think we'd do better to stop saying 'before' the BB and to say 'outside' it instead. Some people will say 'Oh this is just semantics' (usually without knowing what semantics means) but, to me, declaring that one word will do instead of another is like saying there's no need to distinguish between 6 and 13 in mathematics.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that there the BB universe is all that there is or that it appeared from nothing. But nor does it seem reasonable to me that what seems reasonable to me is of any interest whatever to nature. Erm...

Olly

In being careful with words you might note I never used the word "before". I used the word "prior". I guess it's just semantics...whatever that means? If time came to be at the event then the "before" would be prior to the existence of time. You say we'd be better to say "outside" which I did use twice when I said " I am also always confounded by whats outside of the limits we've theoretically set" and "What's outside the leading edge of expansion?" and you are correct in saying that. Thats was the last question I asked. Where did the event occur? Outside is to space like befor/prior is to time. That brings into question can the the two be seperate since we link space/time together?

[mrstraighty]

I stand corrected, I used the word "outside" 3 times in my post.

[spurius]

Before the big bang there was god. He had a heart attack or something and then he swelled up and exploded this triggering the existence of the known universe. Before god himself there was absolutely buggar all but he managed to give birth to himself from out of nothing. I know all this because im both religious, an astrophysicist and an alcoholic all rolled into one.

Im may be wrong tho.

[mrstraighty]

Before the big bang there was god. He had a heart attack or something and then he swelled up and exploded this triggering the existence of the known universe. Before god himself there was absolutely buggar all but he managed to give birth to himself from out of nothing. I know all this because im both religious, an astrophysicist and an alcoholic all rolled into one.

Im may be wrong tho.

"buggar" chatting with you guys makes me feel like I'm on Monty Python. I also am amused with your explanation. Ahhhh but where did this Godiac arrest occur? Probably marching back and forth across the square... unless you have something better to do of course.

[freeflyjay]

i often imagine the big bang to occur at a collision of the multiverse, like a wavey sheet bumping into another with maybe other touching points with multiple big bangs occuring within multiple dimentions, effectivly creating multiple universes within multiple dimentions.....well if one wasn`t enough to get your head around!

[mrstraighty]

I like that. It's kinda how the link in the 1st response proposed it. If there are multiple dimensions than we are enveloped in those and hence it occurs within the realm of multidimensional spaces. As a kid I used to imagine that we(our universe) are like an expanding molecule inside a much much larger being or that the molecular structures inside us were filled with wonders and were universes/multi-verses unto themselves and their inhabitants.

[ollypenrice]

In being careful with words you might note I never used the word "before". I used the word "prior". I guess it's just semantics...whatever that means? If time came to be at the event then the "before" would be prior to the existence of time. You say we'd be better to say "outside" which I did use twice when I said " I am also always confounded by whats outside of the limits we've theoretically set" and "What's outside the leading edge of expansion?" and you are correct in saying that. Thats was the last question I asked. Where did the event occur? Outside is to space like befor/prior is to time. That brings into question can the the two be seperate since we link space/time together?

I wasn't quoting you but I should have said 'prior' none the less.

I agree that 'outside' is to space what 'before' is to time, really, and this objection occurred to me. I guess I felt that 'outside' was OK in the context of a debate about time, though it wouldn't be OK in a debate about space. I really do think these terms matter, though, because if you can't find a word for an idea then I'm not convinced that you can have the idea. What this shows us is that our language is specific to our everyday environment and our everyday environment lies within the BB universe and not outside it. I've made the point in another thread that one of the unique properties of the BB universe is that we cannot (or I cannot) perceive it from the outside. It could in principle be conceived of or observed from a different set of dimensions, so maybe the word we need is 'extradimensional.' There may be extradimensional timelike viewpoints and extradimensional spacelike viewpoints. Or maybe space and time are just utterly naive as conceptions of the real dimensions which exist. This, I must say, is my hunch.

Olly

Edit; the mighty Neils Bohr also considered words to be important. I love his famous line, 'I feel somehow suspended in language.' Don't we all.

[Earl]

Its well worth looking at this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vdkmj

[mrstraighty]

I wasn't quoting you but I should have said 'prior' none the less.

I agree that 'outside' is to space what 'before' is to time, really, and this objection occurred to me. I guess I felt that 'outside' was OK in the context of a debate about time, though it wouldn't be OK in a debate about space. I really do think these terms matter, though, because if you can't find a word for an idea then I'm not convinced that you can have the idea. What this shows us is that our language is specific to our everyday environment and our everyday environment lies within the BB universe and not outside it. I've made the point in another thread that one of the unique properties of the BB universe is that we cannot (or I cannot) perceive it from the outside. It could in principle be conceived of or observed from a different set of dimensions, so maybe the word we need is 'extradimensional.' There may be extradimensional timelike viewpoints and extradimensional spacelike viewpoints. Or maybe space and time are just utterly naive as conceptions of the real dimensions which exist. This, I must say, is my hunch.

Olly

Edit; the mighty Neils Bohr also considered words to be important. I love his famous line, 'I feel somehow suspended in language.' Don't we all.

I concur with you. I love the mass amounts of pondering it affords those who enjoy to do so.

[Guest]

The BB occurred everywhere at once as spacetime is tied integrally to the fabric of the universe.

[nameunknown]

Interesting paper here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385v1.pdf ..but the only thing we can be sure of is "prior" to the Big Bang insurance rates were lower, and they inflated rapidly thereafter.

I just hope it wasn't someone's lab-accident....

P

[Jussi]

Interesting paper here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385v1.pdf

I managed to skip over 'past-eternal' , 'one-dimensional' and even 'semi-infinite'...

finally pausing at the second paragraph I decided to redifine the variable 'x' to = wastebasket.