Video Camera

[alan potts]

If I were to get a camera to view though my PC as live view so to speak will the camera see more than my eye?

Deeper magnitudes, finer detail etc? If this is the case what camera is best?

Hope it is not a silly question I have never read anything on this subject.

Alan.

[Peter Drew]

Alan. My best video results were gained by using a 12" LX200 with F3.3 focal reducer and a Watec 120n. The on screen images of deep sky objects were far superior to anything I've seen visually with any scope up to 30" aperture, this with only around 10 seconds integration time. The Mallincam provides similar performance and there is a colour version. If you want no fuss, plug in and play results, this method has a lot going for it. These cameras are not cheap purchased new.

[alan potts]

Peter,

Thanks for that, cheap is not a word that sits well in the hobby of astronomy.

I have a 6.3 reducer and also the scope which I guess cuts down on out lay and I think I saw a S/H camera that you mentioned on site.

Alan.

[nytecam]

If I were to get a camera to view though my PC as live view so to speak will the camera see more than my eye?

Deeper magnitudes, finer detail etc? If this is the case what camera is best?

Hope it is not a silly question I have never read anything on this subject.

Alan.

Alan - whilst this is the 'video' forum virtually any regular sensitive astro CCD cam, with rapid image refresh, gives similar results and IMHO is more versatile. The clue is to use as large an aperture as possible coupled with fast to very fast focal reducers to collect those photons in double-quick time. I use a OSC SX Lodestar-C powered/ controlled from laptop USB [no mains or TV screens!] for my 'video' experience - see my sig links

[DoctorD]

Hi Alan

Even with my less than ideal set up I can clearly "see" the colour in The Dumbell Nebula M27 - using a Skymax 102 on a Synscan AZ mount with an F3.3 reducer and humble SDC435 video camera using x256 or x512 integration (5 - 10 seconds) viewed live on a 7" LCD Monitor.

No one will claim that the Skymax 102 is a great DSO scope but with the F3.3 reducer taming the F13 down to a more reasonable F4, much of the Messier catalogue will be within your grasp.

That's from my light polluted back garden.

I'm not sure what scope you'd need to see any colour in M27 with the Mk 1 eyeball.

I rarely bother trying to record the images or attempt any stacking - I enjoy the immediacy of the video and the ability to share the views with my young children.

Cameras like the Mallicam offer better control and the Meade DSI II give USB interface and extended exposures but for the money you'd find it hard to beat the SDC435/SBC2000 if you are prepared to work at it and put a system together.

Hope this helps

Paul

[alan potts]

Well thanks for offering advice, I'm not sure i understand all of it but thanks all the same. I have only ever used eyepieces apart from one time I put my Canon 1DS on the powermate and got a very nice shot of the moon ( you have got to start somewhere).

For a person that is half way decent with a camera and have won awards for it, I know nothing about video cameras, it's a different language. This is something I think I would like having a go at. I have a great deal of very good astronomy equipment but rarely get more than 90mins free to use it, one reason why CCD is out the window . I also have a base down for an observatory and just need materials and time to finish it.

Thanks again, I will read some of the posts on the Video site and see if I can get my head around the subject a little better.

Alan.

[nytecam]

You may like to consider the £48pp [yes £48pp!] PAL LNTech CCTV [with 20s exp = 1024 sensup] @ http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-3-SONY-960H-EXview-HAD-CCD-II-700TVL-0-0003Lux-Real-WDR-OSD-3D-DNR/583938938.html which gets good DS0 results with a fast scope - amazing value IMHO. You can order with "IR block filter removed" which greatly boosts sensitivity - filter included loose in shipping box!

[DoctorD]

Hi Nytecam

These look interesting - have you actually tried one.

I note that they are not as sensitive as the SBC 2000 - stated minimum illumination is 0.0003at sensup of 1024, where as the SBC is 0.0001 at 512.

Would be good to get a review of one of them - the small size compared to the SBC would be useful too with smaller mounts.

Clear skies

Paul

[nytecam]

Hi Nytecam

These look interesting - have you actually tried one.

I note that they are not as sensitive as the SBC 2000 - stated minimum illumination is 0.0003at sensup of 1024, where as the SBC is 0.0001 at 512.

Would be good to get a review of one of them - the small size compared to the SBC would be useful too with smaller mounts.Clear skies Paul

Hi Paul - I haven't tried these CCTV - my laptop powered USB Lodestar cam serves me well and I don't fancy a main TV in the garden for video viewing or extra expense of a battery version

As video [or CCDcam] in brief exposure trumps eyeballing DSOs everytime, I suggested the low lost LNTech for starters. Must admit when I occasionally turn up for Club viewing evening, it's like entering a timewarp - nearly everyone is joyfully straining to eyeball impossibly faint objects. Back home I can snap the Dumbbell and Ring nebuae in a few seconds in glorious colour as I've done for over a decade - so no contest

[nytecam]

I note that they are not as sensitive as the SBC 2000 - stated minimum illumination is 0.0003at sensup of 1024, where as the SBC is 0.0001 at 512.....Paul

Paul - these min ill figures are only a crude and frankly unreliable guide to their terrestial use. They can vary with the same manufacturer - best to check via those who have used these CCTV cams on the stars

[euphony]

You may like to consider the £48pp [yes £48pp!] PAL LNTech CCTV [with 20s exp = 1024 sensup] @ http://www.aliexpres.../583938938.html which gets good DS0 results with a fast scope - amazing value IMHO. You can order with "IR block filter removed" which greatly boosts sensitivity - filter included loose in shipping box!

Never seen this before. That is quite a good exposure! Would these work well in an 11" scope with an f3.3 reducer? I'm currently using a Mintron camera with them and not overly impressed at the quality of the images.

[nytecam]

Never seen this before. That is quite a good exposure! Would these work well in an 11" scope with an f3.3 reducer? I'm currently using a Mintron camera with them and not overly impressed at the quality of the images.

The pic is mine from SX Lodestar OSC! Only use of the cheap CCTV cam will proove itself - can you post a minitron pic as a DSO sample?

[alan potts]

Very interesting reading what all of you have written.

I live in Bulgaria and getting things here is not like getting things in the UK. I wonder if any of you know a shop or site I could get all the gear from like a Samsung SBC 2000 and connection to PC or laptop. I am not limited to this model if better are available. What I am after is putting a camera in any of my scopes and viewing by laptop in colour, I know this is not Video as such but I don't know where else to post.

I will not import from the USA due to Customs here being stupid.

Alan.

[euphony]

I've attached some mono images taken with my CPC1100 and my Mintron camera, they are stacked images of roughly 400 individual frames with a little bit of processing in photoshop (not too much, as I didn't want to over do it, except I did slightly with M27 as I was trying to see how much data it had captured by adjusting the curves,but never mind!).

I did about 100 darks that I used when stacking the images in deep sky stacker too, and if I recall correctly, the moon was absent for each of these.

http://www.astrobin.com/26618/

http://www.astrobin.com/26621/

http://www.astrobin.com/26622/

Not sure what has happened to M57 though. I converted it to jpeg from BMP to be able to upload it to astrobin and it suddenly has vertical lines that aren't there on the BMP image. But, you get the idea of the sort of quality images I'm currently getting.

[alan potts]

I have had a think about it and taken advice from Paul on site. I think I am going to get a Mammut colour CCD device from Modern Astronomy. If this will not give me what I am looking for I can always use it for guiding or something.

Thankyou all

Alan.

[DoctorD]

Looks like a very nice piece of kit, the USB 2 interface will give you great results compared to the video capture cards and PAL resolution.

Let us know how you get on with it.

Clear skies

Paul

[alan potts]

Paul,

Many thanks for the help. I will leave it until after Christmas to order one as the mail get a bit hot under the collar this time of the year. The only down side is it gets a bit cold here in the first couple of months of the year. so i don't know how much use it will get at first.

Clear skies,

Alan.

[nytecam]

I've attached some mono images taken with my CPC1100 and my Mintron camera, they are stacked images of roughly 400 individual frames with a little bit of processing in photoshop (not too much, as I didn't want to over do it, except I did slightly with M27 as I was trying to see how much data it had captured by adjusting the curves,but never mind!). I did about 100 darks that I used when stacking the images in deep sky stacker too, and if I recall correctly, the moon was absent for each of these.

http://www.astrobin.com/26618/

http://www.astrobin.com/26621/

http://www.astrobin.com/26622/ Not sure what has happened to M57 though. I converted it to jpeg from BMP to be able to upload it to astrobin and it suddenly has vertical lines that aren't there on the BMP image. But, you get the idea of the sort of quality images I'm currently getting.

Interesting and surprising that you need to stack so many images to get those results. Here's a couple of imaging sequences with brief exposures of 1-2 s to 60s on M57 [full size crop] and M27 full frames via M12 @ f/3.7+ SX Lodestar OSC which seem to go relatively deep by comparison

[euphony]

Well that kind of makes me a bit frustrated to be honest I was expecting much better results than i get. The thing is, how do I know if my particular camera is faulty? Having not used them before I just assumed that it was the limit of that particular camera, but how do I really know? I am not impressed at all with it, especially considering the results you are getting

[DoctorD]

Hi Euphony

I have to agree with Nytecam - you should not need to stack images to get a decent view of M27.

Here's a photo taken with my compact camera off the LCD - actual view was much better even though the LCD is only 320x240 pixels.

Taken with SDC 435 video camera using Skymax 102 with F3.3 reducer on a Synscan AZ mount. 10 Second integration time and minimal in camera noise reduction as this causes blurring on the AZ mount (effectively extends the integration time).

I have no experience with the Mintron camera, perhaps someone else can help with settings?

Clear skies

Paul

[euphony]

I have experimented with the settings to make sure, and I have settled on the settings that are actually recommended, but still no good. I'm just dismayed at the noise level on the image, no matter what i do :/

It's recommended that I get a f3.3 reducer, which I'm sure will help, but I'm doubtful it will make any difference with the amount noise and graininess I am getting.

[DoctorD]

Hi Euphony

You will note that Nytecam is working at F3.7 and I'm working at about F4 (my scope is F13 not F10).

A F3.3 focal reducer will make a huge difference to the noise levels - remember it's square law, so you will need either 1/9 the exposure time (or lower gain - less noise) to get the same exposure.

My SDC 435 security camera seems to work best at about F4 - does not matter whether or not its a 4" MAK or a 12" SCT (not my research but others have found this out - see cloudy nights forum).

I use a 0.5x reducer fitted to the nose piece, which is OK for bright globulars like M4/M5 but the F3.3 reducer (x0.33) really works well.

I rarely bother capturing or stacking (although I have played around with DSS in the past) - live views from my light polluted back garden are what I want - the photo of M27 was take with a LP sodium street light about 20 foot away and only 30 degrees from where the scope was pointing!

Perhaps it's worth contacting the supplier of your camera to see if what they would expect given your set up. Perhaps there is a problem with your camera?

Hope this helps

Paul

[euphony]

Thanks for your help Paul. I have contacted them and they suggested I go for an f3.3 reducer. Which I don't have any money for at the moment

I bought it initially for live views and only started capturing and stacking to get a better image. Which didn't work!

I keep thinking that there is something wrong with the camera, but I don't know how to actually prove that!

[DoctorD]

You might want to give Bernard at Modern Astronomy a ring - he has a x0.4 to x0.8 focal reducer suitable for 1.25" nose pieces at £24 that might work. I have used a similar x0.5 reducer on my MAK to good effect.. The variable reduction comes from the distance from the reducer to the sensor.

http://www.modernastronomy.com/accessories.html#accFocalReducers

Other suppliers may also be able to help.

Bernard is very helpful and has always given good advice.

Do you use any filter I front of your Mintron - I use a Baader Neoydium Moon and Sky Glow also makes a big difference but I do observer from a very light polluted sight.

Let us know how you get on.

Hope this helps

Paul

[euphony]

Thanks Paul,

That is the original reducer I used, but it seems to be no different to the Meade one I purchased afterwards.

I've been speaking to Bernard who is going to have a look into it for me. He thinks it's my settings I am using, but I have tried numerous settings and gone back to the ones that is detailed in his instructions eventually, as they gave the best results. So I doubt it's that.

For interest I have attached 2 images to show how noisy and poor the live view I am getting is.

They are both 1 frame extracted from each captured AVI, and this is how it looks on either my laptop or TV during live view.

Iris Nebula: http://www.astrobin.com/27299/

Splinter Galaxy: http://www.astrobin.com/27298/

As you can see, the images are completely washed out with noise. If I try to change the gain settings then the deep sky object disappears! I really don't know what to do .

One thing I have just thought about is that I have attached the £24 reducer to the end of the adaptor tube the camera attaches to, that slots into the eyepiece thread in the SCT. Would it make a difference if I threaded the reducer directly into the camera? and then screwed the adaptor tube into the reducer?

(I hope that makes sense!)

Many thanks for your help Paul, it's much appreciated

Chris