What are the chances of....

[gooseholla]

Of seeing things like the Veil or N. American nebula in a telescope without any filters and without taking long exposures. i.e. with the eye only?

[Moonshane]

it really depends on your skies. if you can see the Milky Way directly and can get properly dark adapted then with your aperture you should be able to detect both. any light pollution / moon influence / high mist and you'd be scuppered. with a Oiii I can see them in my 6" (and a 90mm refractor since sold) from light pollution central 9 miles from Manchester.

[Stu]

Agreed, I would say it's pretty tricky without an OIII or UHC from anything other than a very dark site with no moon or haze. I saw it in a 106mm apo from a pretty dark site recently using an OIII but it was still very subtle. Moonshane, you must have mega eyes to get it in a 90mm from home. Was that the whole lot or just the brighter Eastern Veil?

Cheers

Stu

[gooseholla]

Well I am hopefully getting an UHC and OIII soon. Always good to know whether to waste ages trying to hunt out an object or not at this stage! Thanks.

[Stu]

What scope have you got gooseholla? Sorry, can't see from my phone.

UHC is supposedly better with smaller scopes, OIII in larger due to the light loss you get from the filtering, OIII being more extreme. Good dark adaption still helps as, although they improve contrast, the image is dimmer. I still found the OIII have a better image at a dark site.

Stu

[gooseholla]

12" newtonian.

[Stu]

Should have a chance with that if your skies are half decent and no moon. OIII will definitely work well with your scope though.

Stu

[Moonshane]

Agreed, I would say it's pretty tricky without an OIII or UHC from anything other than a very dark site with no moon or haze. I saw it in a 106mm apo from a pretty dark site recently using an OIII but it was still very subtle. Moonshane, you must have mega eyes to get it in a 90mm from home. Was that the whole lot or just the brighter Eastern Veil?

Cheers

Stu

hi Stu

it was well placed but I got just the eastern and western elements. no sign of the wisp.

[Stu]

Interesting, must give it a go from home sometime when the conditions are good.

The wisp is pretty challenging in my 106mm, even from a dark site, I could see it but was very subtle.

Need to get my SX250 sorted soon and try with that.

Stu

[Stu]

Well....just tried my crazy setup of 15x50is binos with step down rings with one OIII filter and one UHC-S!

With only around 15 mins dark adaptation I could just about make out the Eastern Veil! Quite chuffed. No sign of the Western and it needed averted vision but definitely it.

Sure if I get to a darker site with better night vision it will be clearer. Next challenge is whether to get a second OIII or UHC-S or stick with the mix which seems to work.

Stu

[swamp thing]

As has been said these objects require dark skies. The veil is easier from skies with moderate LP than the NA neb, but from any sky with LP you will need a filter, preferably an O-III.

The problem with observing the NA neb with your 12" scope is the size of it (taking several FOV it's massive) you may well find yourself looking straight through it rather than at it. You'll need to get lucky and find a more defined edge then follow that.

You can see it with an unaided eye from a really ink black site. It's that big.

The veil is considerably easier through a scope like yours. But it still may well need a filter unless your sky is a good one. Nebula filters like an O-III can make all the difference between seeing these objects and not, from less than deal skies.

[cotterless45]

Eastern Veil just shines here, even in fairly poor skies with a 15x70 pair of bins, nice,

Nick.

[John]

Eastern Veil just shines here, even in fairly poor skies with a 15x70 pair of bins, nice,

Nick.

Yep - I've picked up the E segment with 15x70's from here too, unfiltered. It was a really excellent night.

I can see both the E & W segments without a filter with my 10" newtonian.

The O-III makes so much difference though it's hardly worth not using it !

[Stu]

Well nobody could accuse it of shining from here . It's very subtle, then 15 x70's have significantly larger light grasp than my 15x50is. I couldn't see it at all unfiltered, and only with averted vision with the filters on. Nick, I guess your skies are pretty good?

Stu

[acey]

In a dark sky (Milky Way clearly visible with naked eye) they're fairly easy objects, and a filter makes them very easy. I've seen North America and neighbouring Pelican nebulae with an 80mm scope and UHC filter (to my eye they were more like a distorted Britain and Ireland, given the orientation at the time) and I've seen the Veil with an 8" and UHC, showing good detail. Both should be manageable in smaller aperture without filter if the sky is sufficiently dark. In brighter skies a filter would be essential and they may not be possible at all. A hood should be used to cut stray light, some of which would be reflected ambient light coming back into your eye from the filter.

[Double Kick Drum]

Eastern Veil just shines here, even in fairly poor skies with a 15x70 pair of bins, nice,

Nick.

Thanks for that little nugget of info. I was always under the impression that the Veil was harder than the North American nebula, which I have just about managed to detect from my semi-rural sky on a particularly transparent night.

That gives me hope that I will be able to see it (or at least the Eastern element).

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I got the Eastern Veil and the North America Nebula in 15x70 bins from France. I have seen the N.A. Nebula with Pelican using a UHC filter in my 80mm APM on a dark sight in France as well, along with the Western Veil and Pickering's Wisp. You need dark skies, and a wide FOV. There are many very faint fuzzies I have been able to pick up only in recent years, including the Crescent, the California Nebula, the Cave, the Flaming Star, etc. It takes some experience as an observer. The North America Nebula is best seen in a FOV of 4 deg or more. I must have missed it dozens of times, until one night I suddenly realized how immense it really is. In my mind I was looking for something a bit bigger than M42. It is not, it is several degrees across. The easiest way to spot it is to look for the dark "Gulf of Mexico". In fact, many faint objects mainly show up due to the odd dust lane (which have well-defined edges) rather than through directly seeing the extent of the nebula (which often has very fuzzy boundaries.

So , yes, it is possible, but it requires some work.