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Getting a little disheartened...........


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Last night was my umpteeth attempt at finding M13.I can find Hercules etc no problem,my problems start when I come to use the finder scope on my 200P,I get lost in a miriad of stars which all look the same so I'm unable to 'star hop'.I've tried pointing the scope as near as damnit to M13 and sweep the skys but again I fail miserably.I've read 'Turn left at Orion' over and over again :confused:

I've got permanent neck ache from looking through that blumming finder scope at an absurd angle!!

I've just purchased the Telrad with the dew + shield so I'm hoping this will solve one of my problems ;) and hopefully find my first messier too in the process.

In the mean time is there anything I could do to help me find M13?

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Hi Oily,

Know exactly what you mean as I struggled for ages with my Heritage 130p from the front garden - a dark sky site helped and the first time I found M13, I moved away again just to make sure that I could find it - after that I remember punching the air and doing the "yes, yes yes" chant....much to the embarrassment of my son.

Now, no problem, might be worth trying with the red dot finder on your 130 first, the finder scope on your 200 might be making it harder to find?

You will get it, well whenever the skies do clear, and after that the others will start to come too, You have the right book and am sure a telrad will help too.

Relax, you'll crack it.

Chris

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You could try checking that your finder scope is aligned with your main scope, or perhaps you could try using a laser pointer on your telescope, this will allow you to align your scope pretty accurataley just by eye.

Hope this helps

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I find this all part of the challenge. Getting used to the field of view of the finder scope helps and a bit of practice allows you to distinguish between the bright stars and the dimmer ones which can be confusing. I had some initial problems using my polar scope to align on polaris as even this was surrounded by stars which kept me confused. It's now much easier as I know what to expect and I'm more confident about identifying what I'm looking at. I find stellarium really helpful as it has the really faint stars that aren't shown in Turn Left at Orion. I used stellarium to home in on the whirlpool galaxy. I was only confident that I'd found it, given that the sky really wasn't dark enough to see anything other than really faint blobs, as the faint blobs were in just the right place relative to the background group of stars. Good luck with finding M13, an object that I also want to find once the weather improves, and I'm sure that you'll find it soon.

Dave

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I'd use the finder to get to on eta Herculis and work with the main scope to star-hop from there. What eyepieces do you have? There may well be some sense in working with the 130P first as I think it should have almost twice the field of view of the 200P with the same eyepiece which might might star-hopping easier.

James

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In fear of sounding banal or spouting what you already know, M13 is found about a third of the way down the western side of the keystone asterism in Hercules. From LP skies the full constellation of Hercules is very difficult, nay, impossible to make out but its position between Lyra - look for Vega - and Boötes - look for Arcturus should make it a little easier to find.

If you can’t see the keystone, then conditions will probably not be good enough to see M13.

Once you get your Telrad these finder charts may help. This is to the general site: http://www.solarius....messier_finders and this one is for M 13: http://www.solarius....messier_13.pdf.

But what I have found invaluable to my own viewing is a Telrad to place my scope in the more or less area, a 9x50mm correct angle viewfinder to really get in there, the Sky and Telescope's Pocket Sky Atlas to figure my way around and a low magnification EP, a 25mm will suffice Just follow that line between Eta Herculis and Zeta Herculis and M 13 should show up as minimally a bright, fuzzy grey type of thing. If you're viewing from a city and it isn't coming out, then I guess the seeing conditions are not good and you'll have to wait a night or two.

Whilst you're in the area, may I suggest you also go for M 57 in Lyra which is a much dimmer faint fuzzy, but is quite easy to spot and rather fascinating to view.

I wish you the best of luck and clear skies.

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I found M13 quiet easy to find, but that does include using a Telrad and Stellerium with the Telrad option "ON" so placing the Telrad top side ring on "Her," (HIP 81833) that's the top right star in Hercules, M13 is just below the Telrad center circle if you draw a line down to the bottom right hand star, just bear in mind it won't pop out of your wide FOV EP but be a faint grey blob they could be confused for a slightly out of focus star, a higher power EP once M13 is found and centered will show the cluster just depends on the seeing but if this is good then its a awesome sight...

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When I looked for M13 first I misidentified other stars as the Keystone, having little familiarity with the summer skies. I ended up spotting it by frustrated random scanning with the binoculars in the general area, and wasn't sure if it was M13 or M92 to begin with. These things do take practice.

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That's what I've been doing but it all falls apart as soon as I look through my finder

Hi Oily,

Know exactly what you mean as I struggled for ages with my Heritage 130p from the front garden - a dark sky site helped and the first time I found M13, I moved away again just to make sure that I could find it - after that I remember punching the air and doing the "yes, yes yes" chant....much to the embarrassment of my son.

Now, no problem, might be worth trying with the red dot finder on your 130 first, the finder scope on your 200 might be making it harder to find?

You will get it, well whenever the skies do clear, and after that the others will start to come too, You have the right book and am sure a telrad will help too.

Relax, you'll crack it.

Chris

Thanks Chris,I'll see if I can mount the red dot on the 200P

You could try checking that your finder scope is aligned with your main scope, or perhaps you could try using a laser pointer on your telescope, this will allow you to align your scope pretty accurataley just by eye.

Hope this helps

It's pretty much spot on,I'll try mounting the red dot

I find this all part of the challenge. Getting used to the field of view of the finder scope helps and a bit of practice allows you to distinguish between the bright stars and the dimmer ones which can be confusing. I had some initial problems using my polar scope to align on polaris as even this was surrounded by stars which kept me confused. It's now much easier as I know what to expect and I'm more confident about identifying what I'm looking at. I find stellarium really helpful as it has the really faint stars that aren't shown in Turn Left at Orion. I used stellarium to home in on the whirlpool galaxy. I was only confident that I'd found it, given that the sky really wasn't dark enough to see anything other than really faint blobs, as the faint blobs were in just the right place relative to the background group of stars. Good luck with finding M13, an object that I also want to find once the weather improves, and I'm sure that you'll find it soon.

Dave

Thanks Dave

I'd use the finder to get to on eta Herculis and work with the main scope to star-hop from there. What eyepieces do you have? There may well be some sense in working with the 130P first as I think it should have almost twice the field of view of the 200P with the same eyepiece which might might star-hopping easier.

James

I have 10mm/15mm/25mm ep's and a Seben 8mm/24mm zoom.I'll get out the 130P next time,thanks James

In fear of sounding banal or spouting what you already know, M13 is found about a third of the way down the western side of the keystone asterism in Hercules. From LP skies the full constellation of Hercules is very difficult, nay, impossible to make out but its position between Lyra - look for Vega - and Boötes - look for Arcturus should make it a little easier to find.

If you can’t see the keystone, then conditions will probably not be good enough to see M13.

Once you get your Telrad these finder charts may help. This is to the general site: http://www.solarius....messier_finders and this one is for M 13: http://www.solarius....messier_13.pdf.

But what I have found invaluable to my own viewing is a Telrad to place my scope in the more or less area, a 9x50mm correct angle viewfinder to really get in there, the Sky and Telescope's Pocket Sky Atlas to figure my way around and a low magnification EP, a 25mm will suffice Just follow that line between Eta Herculis and Zeta Herculis and M 13 should show up as minimally a bright, fuzzy grey type of thing. If you're viewing from a city and it isn't coming out, then I guess the seeing conditions are not good and you'll have to wait a night or two.

Whilst you're in the area, may I suggest you also go for M 57 in Lyra which is a much dimmer faint fuzzy, but is quite easy to spot and rather fascinating to view.

I wish you the best of luck and clear skies.

For clarity, the "keystone" is the box formed by eta, zeta, pi and epsilion Herculis.

James

Conditions were great the other night,all of Hercules was visible along with many others!

I live on the very outskirts of Manchester,in a semi rural location so LP isn't as bad as being in the city.

I found M13 quiet easy to find, but that does include using a Telrad and Stellerium with the Telrad option "ON" so placing the Telrad top side ring on "Her," (HIP 81833) that's the top right star in Hercules, M13 is just below the Telrad center circle if you draw a line down to the bottom right hand star, just bear in mind it won't pop out of your wide FOV EP but be a faint grey blob they could be confused for a slightly out of focus star, a higher power EP once M13 is found and centered will show the cluster just depends on the seeing but if this is good then its a awesome sight...

Bring on the Telrad!

When I looked for M13 first I misidentified other stars as the Keystone, having little familiarity with the summer skies. I ended up spotting it by frustrated random scanning with the binoculars in the general area, and wasn't sure if it was M13 or M92 to begin with. These things do take practice.

Getting the practice in is another problem with these cloudy nights! ;)

Many thanks for all the replies,I'll have another bash tonight if it isn't 'you know what'!

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I know exactly how you feel Olly.

I'm new to this as well and find it very frustrating when i have been out and tried to find a target.

But its the going out bit that has been lacking due to this weather,so lack of practice also plays a hand in it all.

If we could get out more often i think the night sky would become more familiar for us.

I have changed my stock finder to a right angled corrector 9x50,and it is a lot better to use,i also have a Telrad but haven't had a chance to use that outdoors yet.

I have been looking at Saturn most the time through the breaks in the clouds but that is from our front room,so it just takes a couple of minutes to get the Dob out and set up.

I'm sure as soon as we get some good clear conditions things will all fall into place so keep your chin up :smiley:

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Oily I understand your confusion, once you start to look through the view finder your brain becomes confused with the many stars and the small field FOV and if you are able to observe at a reasonably dark site, even more stars appear. Just for interest, some while ago I bought a copy of " The cambridge Photographic star Atlas " not with the intention of using it as an atlas, but to see what the sky looks like digitally photographed from a very dark site. On one page you have the digitised image of the sky to scale and on the opposite page the same image is transposed to black and white upon which all interesting information is marked, such as Constellation boundaries major stars, Nebulae, Galaxies and all other important information, all 88 Constellations are shown, a large format book with the Photos to a scale of 1 cm to a degree, and stars shown down to about mag 14. Used in conjunction with a conventional Atlas, ( I have Uranometria 2000 ) I have found it quite remarkable how the brain recalls the many star asterisms in and around the areas you want to locate, then starting with a widefield eye piece, you should find yourself in familiar territory. When the weather is bad It is also very good for passing the time learning areas of the night sky you want to observe in the future, using a large 4" magnifying, glass in conjunction with the star atlas. For some reason I have used it quite a lot recently :D. but joking aside you can easily loose yourself in it for hours at an end, I consider it some £20 or so well spent :)

John.

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I'd definitely start off by getting Eta Herculis in the 25mm eyepiece of the 130P so you have the widest possible field of view. Alternatively you might find Eta and Zeta and use the red dot finder to put you about a third of the way along an imaginary line between Eta and Zeta and see what you get in the eyepiece then.

In the 130P at low magnification it will be small, round, faint, grey and fuzzy. Sometimes it's easy to mistake a DSO for some random reflection off the lens and move on without realising you've missed it.

James

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Hi

Interpreting what you see through a finder and what you see with your naked eye is indeed tough at first.

Remember though, that the bright star you see with your eye will still be the brightest one in the finder field of view.

Have a warm up on a constellation with some bright stars like Ursa major. See if you can navigate your way around the dipper bowl just using the finder and pushing the Dob. Often it's a case of forgetting what the stars are doing through the finder view and simply pushing in the direction you wanna go. Check you position by eyeing along the finder when you think you've reached your targets.

Take it slowly if you feel you are going off coarse stop. Then restart from your last known point.

After Ursa major try Cassiopeia, slightly more challenging.but the stars are still bright.

Most finders have around a 5deg field so the stars of Cassiopeia are only just out of each fIeld of view each time, push your Dob the direction you wanna go, ignore the strange directions the finder shows you moving in. This is confusing but trust me you soon get used to it.

I struggled when I first went from a regular straight through finder to a RACI as I got so used to the strange orientation of the regular finder.

Once confident you can push from on star to another apply this to the keystone in Hercules. You'll find M13 in a few shakes like this

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Oily, do you have setting circles on the dob? Try levelling the base and setting the position in AZ then move the scope slowly in alt, could be worth a go, or better still, get yourself a wixey. The setting circle/ wixey combination does work.

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Whatever you do don't get down about this.

I took ages, and I mean ages, for me to find M31. I had all the maps, the advice, etc, and still drew a blank ... then one day .. bingo!

So stay with it - it will definitely come.

All the advice about where and how to look is already above, so keep going and I am sure you will find it very soon.

:)

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The funny thing is, once you have found it you won't be able to point your scope at the sky without seeing it.

It took me four nights to find the Coathanger with binoculars, patiently sweeping the sky for ages. Since then I can find it in about five seconds. I have found M13 (and a few other globular clusters) in my bins but have yet to have a proper look with my scope.

I do find it helpful to find things with my 10x50 bins first if at all possible, it gives my some idea of what exactly i am looking for. Some things look nothing like their Stellarium images through a small scope.

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Cannot understand your problem unless in heavily light polluted skies.

I first saw M13 from my front door in the town I live with a nice bright sodium lamp opposite me and enough general light pollution.

Identified Hercules, saw a fuzzy patch then used binoculars.

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Hi Oily! If you're talking about Wednesday night from Manchester, I was looking at the same bit of sky from the same location and was looking for the same thing with my 130p.

If it's any consolation, I didn't find it either - and I think that's for three reasons:

1. The background sky was particularly bright and there were some pretty fast-moving thin clouds around.

2. Because of the conditions I managed to convinced myself that I had no chance of seeing it even if I looked in the right place - and probably lost the battle right there

3. Not entirely convinced that I had found the keystone asterism. I now reckon that I was starting from random collection of four stars a bit further south.

Incidentally, I use the red spot finder to get me to a bright star and then do all my searching through the telescope eyepiece. It may seem a bit obvious, but when I'm using a star-chart to familiarise myself with any area I want to look at, I always do it with the chart upside-down. That way I know instinctively that in the telescope view to find M13, I will be starting with eta herculis, moving to a position a tad to the left of eta and going up towards zeta. (The scope is of course moving to the right and down)

So please don't be disheartened. I suggest that you view it as a challenge and get a bottle of something to put in the 'fridge for the day that you do find it - as indeed you will.

Whatever happens, M13 will still be waiting for you. Nobody can steal it - even in Manchester :p

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And if all else fails, ask around to see if there's someone you can meet up with who can help you, either a local SGL member or a local astro society or something. When you're doing it all by yourself then other than the blindingly obvious Messier objects such as the Orion Nebula, the Beehive, the Pleiades and perhaps the Andromeda galaxy, it can be tough at first, not knowing if you're "doing it right", not really having a good idea of what to expect and so on. Having found something once you can often work back to why you couldn't find it previous times, or even realise that you were definitely looking in the right place, but it just wasn't visible on the night you were looking.

James

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