Camping looks complicated

[dharma66]

I'm wanting to attend a star party or two, and so I started looking at tents and stuff.

Now, compared to choosing scopes and eyepieces etc, I thought it would be easy. I mean, I used to camp and it was easy then. I bought a two man all season mountain tent and set out into the wilds. I never went anywhere near a campsite, though. Me and my mate used to hike for days, either in the lakes or in Scotland, and at the end of the day, we'd chuck up the tent, fire up the trangia, and in the morning we'd just make sure we left no trace, and move on.

But I've been looking at the websites of a few campsites, and at those of a few shops selling 'family tents' (I'm hoping the missus will join me), and I have to say there seems to be a lot more to it than I imagined. There's a jargon for camping as much as for astronomy!

Can anyone recommend where I can get started? Is there a UK edition of a 'Camping for Dummies' or some such that will teach me what cryptic statements like 'pitches and pegs don't go together' actually mean?

[sologuitarist61]

I'm with you on this one. I too want to attend a few star parties and a tent is clearly the cheap option, but like you, I have no idea what is good, what is bad and what is just too darned expensive - some of them are hundreds of £'s. Any advice on an easily installed tent for two people and two dogs would be great :smiley: !!

[Astro_Baby]

Probably the best investment in astronomy I have made is in campig kit. No eyepiece or scope yet made can overcome light pollution for the visual astronomer and a 4" frac under apeerless sky will thrash most big scopes under light pollution hell.

Camping is a minefield though and over a few years I have acquired more and more gear which includes camp beds, thermal rolls to put on the camp beds and sleeping bags which cost as much as most mid range scopes. On top of that has been stuff like tent heaters, cooking gear, lights, mains power adapters, tent carpets, camping chairs, water carriers, the list is huge. As if that wasnt enough good warm boots, fleeces, body warmers etc have all added to the cost. The reward has been comfy camping and peerless skies where I have had great views. Last year on Exmoor I saw the Swan Nebula clearer than Charlie Measier did when he discovered it.

Tents, yup they come ia huge range and prices from cheap and cheerful to insane and the cost of a small house My advice would be get the biggest tent you can afford and store and carry. Standing room is a must and a tent that looks huge on paper is likley to end up with less space avaiable for you than a Soyuz by the time its filled with all your tack.

My current tent is a Boston Easycamp 400 which is just about as small as you can go for two people with a lot of gear. It seeemd huge when empty but by the time you have stowed all your clothes, heaters, supplies etc is actually a bit cramped which is why this year will be is last outing.

My advice is definitley get to a tent outlet which has the stuff set up because pics on the web can be VERYYY misleading.

Dont skimp on sleeping bags because a decent one may be expensive but it will seem like a bargain when your shivering at 4am in a cheap one.

If your doing astro it can get mighty cold outside and you need to warm up before hitting the sack for the night so a tent heater is a bit of a must.

The two things which made the biggest difference I found was a latge enough tent, a decemt tent heater and decent cooker, ok thats three things...........which just goes to show that just like astro its anever ending spend.

Worth it all though as it gives you the freedom to push off for long weekends at minimal cost and enjoy perfect skies somewhere.

[Photosbykev]

After using a Kyham biker tent at SGL6 (BIG mistake) I bought a 5-berth Outwell tent http://www.gooutdoor...land-xl-p149886 just for myself. Best thing I ever bought for star parties

It isn't cheap, but it has plenty of room and features that make life much more comfortable when camping out, I got it for £220 when GoOutdoors price matched for me . Add decent sleeping bags, thermarest style undermats, and a heater for those really cold nights and you're off to a good start.

Buy cheap and you will regret it and you will end up spending more when you buy replacement equipment.

[russ.will]

One step at a time. Tent first - Decide how many people will regularly sleep in it and then buy one at least twice that size. That way you can live like humans.

Stick to well known names like Sunncamp, Khyam, Outwell etc. They don't make rubbish and then go on ukcampsite.co.uk and read the reviews to rule at any obvious faults in the tents you're looking at.

Finally, don't buy a new one. Buy one from EBay as second hand tents are a fraction of the new price. I bought an 8 man Sunncamp Shadow 800 in poly-cotton, used once, for £130. That's a £400+ tent, with a central space that was bigger than the front room of my first house, for less than some of 3 man rubbish in Halfords. Poly cotton is extra nice if you can find it. It's quieter in the wind and less sweaty in summer.

Be patient, buy out of season (not too useful now) and as ever, look for rubbish listings that end at silly times. As an astronomer, you will still be awake at the sort of times that ensure minimal bidding competition.

Russell

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[JamesF]

No idea if there's something equally useful near you RIchard, but I believe you said you were off up to the Lakes at some point soon? If so, you'll be passing this place:

http://www.tauntonleisure.com/rte_page.php?id=107

which might be worth a visit.

James

[Stu]

I agree on the ukcampsite recommendation.

http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/tents/

Plenty of real life info here.

It's like most things these days, there is just far too much choice. Stick with the recognised brands, and work out the size and features you want and just go for it.

For the record, I have a Vango Tigris 400 with canopy, footprint and carpet and it is great for me and the children. Standing height is getting to be a must now for me so check that out (I've had too many years cramped in a little 3 man Euro hike jobbie!)

Enjoy it, it's well worth it. Btw, I agree with Astro baby about the sleeping bags. I camped in the New Forest earlier in the year and I was frozen! Slept with six layers on!

Stu

[nightfisher]

A tip for sleeping bags for cold weather, army surplus "arctic" bags are said to be just about the warmest around, this year i will be using my Nash double top fishing bivvy, okay i cant stand up in it but it is 3 layers (i added a third skin), has vent windows and best of all i can have it set up and pegged down in less than 5 minutes

[AndyH]

Me n the wife have Norwegian Army artic bags. Beyond belief warm. Proof is we were still alive and warm after surving a -9C Kielder in late October one year.

Insulation from the ground is probably even more important. We use the std ground mats, then have an old horrible king size duvet on top of that, followed by a huge thick ex army style blanket, then the bags go on top of that. Another huge thick blanket goes on top of that. Snug as flea on a wooly dog.

As for tents. Lots to choose from and no need for huge expense. We like - sleeping area, storage area, central sitting/standing area. Works for astro camps and general holidaying.

Andy.

ps: I second what A_B says regarding actually seeing the tent in the flesh, if possible.

pps: I also second Jules recommendation of something that is not too complex to put up. If it's pouring down and/or windy, you want something that goes up simply and quickly.

[nightfisher]

Me n the wife have Norwegian Army artic bags. Beyond belief warm. Proof is we were still alive and warm after surving a -9C Kielder in late October one year.

Insulation from the ground is probably even more important. We use the std ground mats, then have an old horrible king size duvet on top of that, followed by a huge thick ex army style blanket, then the bags go on top of that. Another huge thick blanket goes on top of that. Snug as flea on a wooly dog.

As for tents. Lots to choose from and no need for huge expense. We like - sleeping area, storage area, central sitting/standing area. Works for astro camps and general holidaying.

Andy.

ps: I second what A_B says regarding actually seeing the tent in the flesh, if possible.

pps: I also second Jules recommendation of something that is not too complex to put up. If it's pouring down and/or windy, you want something that goes up simply and quickly.

Yep the double top is whats called a "pram hood" bivvy, take it out of the bag, lay it on the floor connect ali tubes together fasten the tension strap and peg down..if i work really fast i can have it up in about 3 minutes

[Moonshane]

I agree on simplicity and comfort if possible. it depends on how long you are staying at a place but I tend to put fresh clothes on in the morning and then sleep in them at night. it means I am warmer than with just shorts or what have you on.

my tip would be have a 'cooking/toilet' tent for your main scope and food/cooking gear etc and a tent for you. that said I may possibly take a bigger tent to PSP this year and just store the scope in the canopy of that. this works better for dobs rather than EQ mounts as most people that use those seem to set up once and cover with a waterproof for the duration.

I use a self inflating thin(ish) foam mat and then a memory foam topper which is very comfy indeed. I also take a quilt and a couple of spare sleeping bags. might seem a lot but much of this is used to stop my scope rolling about in the back of the car.

If I take out my passenger seat (or carry my base on the roof), I can get my 16" scope, and all my gear in the car at a push.

I find a bottle of red works to get me cosy - although when downing this by about 11pm and then deciding the clouds were in for the night at PSP2011 I went to bed and was awoken at 1.30am by people mooching and a clear sky, it was a little hairy carrying my 16" back out again!

[Astro_Baby]

Oddly I had to do a kind of inventory early this morning so here's a full list of what I have and some observations if thats any help.

TENT & Accessories

Boston Easy Camp 500 Tent - its geared for 5 but we have only two of us - admittedly we aint twiggy but even so it makes for a tight squeeze. Word of warning here most tent suppliers were obviously either tour jet operators or people smugglers in an earlier life. Tents ALWAYS overstate what they can sleep. Most tents rated as 4 persons mean if you are VERY good friends with the other people and have no luggage beyond what your standing up in and a sleeping bag. Be wary of store displays showing the tent in its camping mode - they usually include a dinky table and a small chair and the tent looks huge - when you do it for real and you have sleeping bags, food, changes of clothes, backpacks, shoes etc the tent will shrink in usable size to something akin to a space capsule. Budget in a groundsheet and also a tent carpet - it adds just a bit of extra warmth and comfort to the whole thing.

Something else to consider is decent tent pegs - I have some that are cross shaped in cross section and made of some kind of super hard plastic - you'll need these if the ground isnt hard as they grip better, if the ground is hard you'll need a different type - whatever the ground may be the pegs that you dont need are the ones that come with most tents. They are the tent equivalent of Kkywatcher alt bolts and will bend if they hit so much as an old fag packet plus they wont hold on to anything. Why tent suppliers supply these things is beyond me - bet no one ever gets to use them more than once as they bend so easily.

Another thing to think of is storage - most modern tents have some sort of storage rack and these things are a godsend for the stuff you need on hand like torches, keys etc.

Tents are measured in hydrostatic head for weather - this is how much water can fall and not make the tent leak. I cant recall the exact basis of the measurement (do a Google here) but you need a minimum of 1500 hydrostatic head for the UK and generally the bigger the number the better. This is what makes the biggest difference between cheap tents flogged in Halfords, Tescos, Argos etc and serious ones together with the quality of the seams.

You dont have to go mental and something like the tent I have was gotten for a paltry £180 and it will last a few years at least.

Dont forget also these things take up storage space and can be quite heavy when packed up. Mine is a pretty lightweight tent but its packed weight is 18kg and its about the size of 8" telescope tube.

Snooze Equipment

After being bitten with cheap bags I lashed out on some Vango 4 season bags - total deluxe and quite toasty as well as being light and easy to stow. After various experiments with different sleeping arrangements we bought camp beds. Why Camp beds ? Because when they are set up you can stow stuff underneath them which cuts down the clutter in the tent and still allows you to use the bed to lie or sit on and natter.

The beds need covering with a thermal barrier/foam mat type thing underneath. We need to buy these but will be getting some Thermarest ones this year as the last ones got lost somewhere.

We also have some heavy carpets we put down in the sleeping quarters of the tent plus a small electric convector heater to keep the sleeping area warm if it gets super cold.

Food

Shop around for camp cookers - forget these things with a single small gas can they end up costing a ton and are very inefficient and a misery to cook with. We picked up a nice twin ring burner and toaster/grill off a bargain store. It needed a little modifying to make it work well but it goes well now (quality of the hinges was shocking on it). Camping Gaz stoves are the Ford Mondeo of camp cooking - easy, simple, well made for the price and these can be picked up for about £100 on ebay or less complete with a Cylinder which has a big cost if you have to buy new.

Alternately just wait for the nearest Millets or Blacks to close down and hey presto cheap Gaz stove - buy at end of season and prices are slashed.

We learnt the hard way that household cooking stuff doesn't work well in a field. Ours is heavy duty pro grade cookware and the metal is too solid to work well with a small camping gas cooker plus it weigh a ton and takes up a lot of space . You use most of your gas getting the metal to temperature. We bought a few sets of complete campware cooking gear much easier. Expect to pay about £20 for set of ally suacepans and fry pan.

Set of plastic plates and cups plus some enamel ware are much used as well and indestructible in the field. Household stuff breaks too easy and get lost too easy as well in a field. We bought a ton of this on Amazon for a about £30.

A cooking stand was my best investment in this - no more balancng the cooker on stuff or kneeling down and hurting my knees. Its a wire mesh thing that folds up and acts as storage for all the cookware. A few holes drilled into the base of the cooker and the addition of some wing nuts and the cooker bolts firmly to its top.

Electrickery and Other Stuff

A main power adapter with an RCD is a big help. This is something thats outrageously priced and I think we got socked for about £70 for this. On the other hand its safe as houses and quality isnst a bad thing when your talking electric. We added a coup,e of camping lights main powered and some small battery glow globes for lighting.

A small convector heater is good for tent heating but we also have a gas powered catalytic heater which is good for warming you up outside if you need it (obviously not near a telescope) but for other stuff.

A Water carrier/container tops its all off and saves you those tiresome walks for yet another bottle of water.

A useful accessory is a bucket - its handy for us girls in the middle of the night. Its also handy for holding dirty washing up and general porterage.

Furniture

Small collapsible camping table and two QUALITY chairs. We tried the cheap chairs and they lasted precisely one trip before splitting. These are more in the nice to have category than essentials but the chairs do give you a comfy perch to set and read and add a bit of civilisation

FInally......

All of this lot takes up some space - I have added a pic below of the whole thing set up from a year ago - all of the gear almost filled the small van we had to hire to transport it all in.

The upside is having unpacked it all and set up which took about an hour we had relative comfortable camping. You dont NEED all this stuff from the off but if any of you guys are hoping to get girlfriends and wives along a pup tent and a tilley stove isn't going to win them over

[Moonshane]

The tent I have is an almost identical one (but green (or grey? I cannot recall)) and has an extended canopy on the front as an added extra. as mentioned you don't need all of the stuff above but it makes life a lot more enjoyable. I use the small gas canister stoves and they are OK really for 1/2 people but not a full family meal. I tend to use tinned / packed stuff which heats quickly when camping - jaffa cakes are surprisingly nutritious . I agree on the pans - well worth it.

[JamesF]

Absolutely agree on the number of people tents are rated for. If the sole purpose of the tent is "crawl in, sleep, crawl out" and never use it at any other time then the manufacturers' figures are probably ok. If you want to actually use it as any kind of living space as well you need to divide the number by two at least.

James

[Photosbykev]

my 5 berth tent is ok for me and all the astro boxes the gear is transported in. Once you add a table and cooking gear the space becomes limited lol

[dharma66]

Many thanks to everyone. I hope you don't mind if I single out astro_baby for special thanks, though, for two excellent posts!

The space for transport was a worry, and now is more so having seen a van was needed to cart the kit!

I have been looking at 6 berth tents for the two of us. Like I said, my previous camping experience was all wild camping with technical gear from when I used to rock climb in my yoof. We had two people in a two man mountain tent, with rucksacks in the porch area. It was very cosy. But the technical gear is great for its purpose. I used to sleep in just shorts in my 5 season bag at -15C in the highlands!

But what I'm looking for now is something quite different, and much more akin to the inventory listed by astro_baby. The camp beds to allow stowage space beneath is a good tip, and will make the missus a lot happier!

My other questions pertain to campsites. Even having spent what seems like hundreds of nights in tents, I've never once stayed on a campsite. I'm guessing there must be an etiquette, and the booking forms for sites look complex. I really don't know what counts as an awning or a gazebo, and it seems you often have to pay extra for these. They also seem to quote prices by the berth of the tent, but then also list people in the extras. Do you pay for the tent, then pay the extra for each person staying in it? Some of tents I've been looking at seem utterly enormous compared to the 2man mountain tents I'm used to. Will they all fit in the space allocated? Are some too big? What about the extensions you can buy? Do they count as extras?

How big are these tents when packed away? Will I need a trailer? Would a roof rack suffice?

I'm starting to wonder if I should not bother trying to get my wife to come along, and instead just stick to a small utility tent for the scope, and a bivvy for me... It would be a shame, but I can see this quickly becoming a seriously major expense...

[Polar Bear]

Ah camping, one of my passions and great enjoyments.

There are 2 types of camping, lightweight backpacking and car based site camping. 2 completely different beasts.

I take it with star parties you will be car based so here is what I would consider and some ideas for you.

Good quality gear is not expensive secondhand (massive emphasis on buying secondhand)

How big is your car and how many passengers ? This ultimately will decide on the type of tent and amount of equipment you can carry.

Additionally you need somewhere to store it all when not in use (I use my attic) and space to erect the tent when you get home to dry it out if it was packed up in the wet.

If space permits I suggest a cotton frame tent. Mine is a Cabanon ( The Rolls Royce of tents) and cost £130 via ebay (New price was £900)

However this tent takes up the whole boot on my Mondeo and needs 2 people to put it up.

There are plenty smaller versions on ebay like this Champagne model which is in Keighley so not too far from you. http://www.ebay.co.u...=item4d02456e45

As stated by others if their are 2 of you you need a 4 man. Tents such as these really stand up to the elements , will last years, can be re-proofed easily, are quieter and cooler than nylon and don't need 50 guy ropes and a degree in mechanical engineering to erect.

If space is very limited , and you want to buy new then visit a camping superstore like Go Outdoors http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/stockport

You will be able to see the tents erected and be able to pull and poke them, but I still maintain secondhand is the way to go.

For the British weather you need a minimum of 2500 - 3000mm hydrostatic head rating for the tent material.

For sleeping it is simple. With car camping we use a simple inexpensive double sleeping bag (£20.00) and take the duvet. Expensive 3-4 season lightweight bags are for hiking, impersonal if you are with your partner and a pain to get out of at 4.00am if you have been on the beer.

Underneath we use a good quality flocked inflatable double air bed (£40.00) with a 240v inflater which is normally included. 12v is fine but most sites have somewhere you can plug in to inflate it. Don't forget your pillows !

We use 2 collapsable tables (£15.00 each) collapsable cooking range (£30.00) 2 Cartridge type cookers (£12.00 each) and a heater that takes the same cartridges, these save lugging and refilling bottles. A quality frying pan and a normal large pan (not camping ones) a kettle and an assortment of plastic plates and mugs. A washing up bowl is an aid for carrying pots and pans to the washing up area.

We also take 2 collapsable comfy chairs and other essentials such as lamps and torches.

This all sounds expensive but say you spend £150.00 on the tent, a futher £250 should equip you with all the basics you need.

Then the luxuries will start to kick in with first a mains 240v hook-up, LED lights, etc.

As with most things buy quality, look after them and they will last years.

Aldi and Lidl can be a good source for lamps / tables / chairs / stoves etc.

I love wilderness walking and camping in the Highlands which I have done many times with my ultra lightweight gear but site camping is completely different and if you have the car space then why not have some luxury ?

NB. to answer the questions you posed whilst I was writing this post

most sites have allocated pitches of a set size due to fire regulations.

You generally will pay per person irrespective of whether you use a 2 man Vango or a 8 berth frame tent.

Awnings and extensions are generally considered part of the tent with no extra charge.

Don't use a roof box on the car they kill your mpg and most cars will only take 50-60kg on the roof safely.

Mains hook ups are available on some camping pitches with an additional charge (£3 -£5) each night.

As I said earler you will only have space problems with huge canvas frame tents, the Cabanon in the link does not take up much boot space.

I disagree with the comments on the cartridge type burners and heaters. I find them more convenient to use, they take up much less space and generate a lot of heat.

Also by using general home pots and pans you will save money and they are generally more durable than camping items.

Site camping is completely different than hiking.As you know, with hiking you are up, fed, ablutions, tent down, back on the trail. There is nothing worse than spending hour after hour on a site in the rain with a tent you can't even sit in let alone stand in.

When spending hours on a site you need space in the tent to relax, cook, read, have guests round for a drink, etc.....trust me.

Paul

[nightfisher]

It seems to me that people take everything bar the kitchen sink, but i like to camp light and comfy i have a small coleman petrol stove for boiling a brew, very quick and a small gas stove for cooking on, i have my bedchair that is really comfy, and keeps me way of the ground, my bivvy is only for one person to sleep, but just large enough to seat 2 people, most of my gear, be it fishing,or astro, goes under my bedchair. i looked into getting a "proper" tent this year but decided to stick with my faithful bivvy set up

[dharma66]

The wife just spotted the issue of Camping magazine I surreptitiously purchased yesterday, so I had to come clean about my intentions.

In fact, when I described tents you can walk around in, and campsites with toilets and showers, she's really quite up for it! This is good, and means in can continue to look at comfort, rather than minimalism, which if I'm honest, and feeling a bit old and creaky for, now.

I spent the entire day yesterday flipping between the Outwell website, ukcamping, and Google Shopping, comparing specs, reviews and prices. I have a couple of Outwell candidates now, and will do the same thing with a few other manufacturers. Once I have half a dozen or so that seem of interest, I'll try to find suppliers with them pitched, so I can take a look. Once I've a couple that I'm really interested in, I may visit eBay, or I may bite the bullet and buy new.

Everything on this thread has been really useful, and I'm really gratefull. I'll be continually referring back here throughout my search for camping gear!

Many thanks to all!

[dharma66]

Paul, I Just noticed the edit on your post.

Thanks for answering my specific questions. I think you are right about the comfort, even if my wife was not going to be joining me.

The only answer I have reservations about, is not using a roof box. We only have a small hatchback, and it's going to have to fit me and my wife, a 12" dob, as well as the rest of my gear, before we even think about changes of clothing and camping gear, so I don't think I'll have any alternative, other than a trailer. I'm not at all keen on the idea of a trailer, as it will mean having a tow bar installed, and then finding somewhere to store it....and realistically, that would probably mean renting a lock-up garage!

[Polar Bear]

Paul, I Just noticed the edit on your post.

Thanks for answering my specific questions. I think you are right about the comfort, even if my wife was not going to be joining me.

The only answer I have reservations about, is not using a roof box. We only have a small hatchback, and it's going to have to fit me and my wife, a 12" dob, as well as the rest of my gear, before we even think about changes of clothing and camping gear, so I don't think I'll have any alternative, other than a trailer. I'm not at all keen on the idea of a trailer, as it will mean having a tow bar installed, and then finding somewhere to store it....and realistically, that would probably mean renting a lock-up garage!

Trailers and garage rental are getting into lots of money and probably unnecessary. A roofbox will need storing unless you are happy to keep it on the car and suffer the noise and increased mpg ?

The largest part of our kit is the tent and frame. It is as big as it is because that is the largest tent we can get in the car and gives us all the comfort we need for a weeks stay on a site. You don't need one so big and the Cabanon I sent the link for looks like it would only take 1/3rd of the space. (here is another with postage http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/cabanon-atlantic-frame-tent-/271002674035?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_HikingCamping_Tents_JN&hash=item3f1904a373 )

I cannot stress enough how these tents enhance your camping experience and secondhand are about the same price as a 'cheap' 4 berth new.

To save space use the cartridge cookers I mentioned, they are currently £6.99 at Go Outdoors. An inflatable bed takes much less room than a camp bed, as do the collapsable chairs and tables that fit in a sleeve.

To further save space check if the site has fridges you can use, that way you don't need a cool box.

Additionally we go shopping when we get on holiday. This saves space in the car and supports the local economy where you are staying.

Once you have the kit have a dry run to see if you can get it in the car before giving your money to Halfords for a roof box.

Paul

[Wobbly Bob]

We, fortunatly have a campervan which is a home from home, however I attended one star party armed with two fishing bivvys, one to sleep in and the other as a kitchen come storage area all very cosy. Apart from all thats been mentioned above there is one aspect to camping that I have observed on many occasions WIND, no not what you maybe thinking HE HE HE. On one memorable Kelling Heath outing the camp site became a disaster area with tents, sleeping bags and goodness knows what flying about everywhere. My point is, make sure the tent you buy can at least stand up to a strong gale.

[ollypenrice]

Just go and have a look at some tents. There are things to avoid. For instance, in one of the links above I saw a porch area with sewn-in ground sheet. Disaster! This is an elementary no-no. It will puddle with water when you come in wet and the water can't get out. Porch areas need removeable groundsheets or ones on which boot and cagoul-imported water can be swept off the edge.

Camping isn't complicated. The way you did it in the past is the best way and all that you learned that way will still apply. Trangias are great.

Consider taking two tents, a small one for sleeping and a big, unlined one for storing and living, with a free standing groundsheet for the reasons given above. This way you have a small warm bedroom and a big operating area which can store wet stuff without importing it into your bedroom.

Rather than heat the tent you could try a heated Blazewear jacket from FLO. Brilliant.

I've clocked up several years' worth of nights in tents and rarely been uncomfortable. Do look at the self inflating mattresses like Thermarests though. They are warm, comfortable and small enough for cycle campers like me. I even have a gadget to turn it into a seat - and that as a cyclist.

Olly

[cotterless45]

You've just mentioned my 2 no no's guide to motoring; roof boxes and trailers.I like everything in with me.

Tent ; Vango Icarus 500; you can stand up full height,plenty of room .Better still the scopes go in the area outside of the bedroom. In the car ;10" Meade,8" Orion with mount.

Folding aluminium camp bed from Argos and a single duvet. Never found a sleeping bag that was comfortable, just wrap the duvet around yourself.

Cooking; small single ring stove , comes in it's black plastic box from Wilko's for about £10.

Do some research on the campsite; some charge far too much, the best ones usually charge per pitch for 2 folk.Beware that on school holidays the great unwashed tribes descend.

Which brings me to the top tip; wax earplugs.You have no idea how sounds carry , yet alone the dawn ( yawn ) chorus.

Nick.

[dharma66]

Yeah, I'd much rather not have a roof rack/box, but then its either use a roof rack, or send the car full of gear by radio control, and leave all the people at home.

Unless someone will buy me a bigger car for XMas...