Living With Light Pollution in the West Mids.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi To All checking the West mids new group (thanks to Daz). Yeah I know CLOUD RAIN CLOUD RAIN and more CLOUD RAIN.

Just thought that I'd start a thread regarding observing - As we all know observing from light polluted skies is, I'm afraid, what we do living where we live, I've been observing for many years and gradually worked my way up th the present kit I own - wonder what you guys and gals think about observing under light polluted skies and how it affects you when searching for those faint fuzzies and wether its ever put you off astronomy - or like me, find the enjoyment of the hobby, by just getting out and trying night after night to "see" fainter objects only to be left with an "invisible" dso in the ep. Realistically, looking for objects below about 10.5 becomes a real challenge - so only the brighter members of the catalogues (M, NGC,IC etc) are there and just detectable - yes, I know the planets, moon bright doubles are fantastic under any skies and we would all love just setting up outside with the Milky Way "plastered" accross the sky and having no trouble with fainter fuzzies at maybe 12 and fainter.

I've never been to a really dark site, wonder if any of you have, can you share with us "light polluted" observers what sort of faint dso's youve been looking at.

I really enjoy the hobby as do everyone on here, I know, to me, its just about setting up on a clear night and having a good "gaze" for as many objects that are high enough in the sky away from the orange glow that has become the "norm" for us, Thanks again Daz for setting this up and await your replies - regards Paul.

[Dazzyd]

Hi Paul

I've been to a very dark site when I used to hang out down in Wiltshire a lot and that was wonderful, before my bins and telescope days but I've always looked at the stars and I know down there in crop circle country it's pretty damn nice. Never been to a truly dark location but would SO love to go to one, especially now I've got the scope.

I'm like you though, even with the LP and right now, lack of dark nights, I just love getting outside and simply looking. Now I've got the 30mm Vixen EP I love looking around and realising that even though we have lots of LP there are SO many stars to see, shame it's not with the naked eye round here eh. I'm very slowly bagging some Messiers but this time of year it's hard/ The other night I know I was in the right place for the Whirpool Galaxy but do you think I could find it? LOL. Waiting for a Telrad to come from FLO at the mo though which should help really nail down finding objects.

Love looking at the Moon and the planets (only Mars and Saturn at the mo but waiting for Jupiter to show again) but the more viewing I do the more I want to see which is why I want to try and get a selection of darker, less light poluted locations not too far away that I can start using in 2-3 months when the nights are darker again. It's addictive isn't it, the more you see the more you want to see but then you start to curse the light nights and the light polution LOL. One thing I've noticed since getting the scope is the hugely enhanced notice of the weather! I've never really been bothered about it, I'm happy with sun, rain, snow etc but now I want the clouds to go and not darken my door again LOL

[Northern Soul man]

I Know Dazz, these large diffuse Galaxies are really hard to find, let alone see. I always try to locate the objects when they are at hte highest point in the sky, usually when the constellations are nearly overhead (zenith) to have the best views but before, with my 12" dob searching overhead was really difficult, being on a dob mount. Congrats on the Vixens really nice ep's, they have a really good following on here, next night time apparition of Jupiter, I think, she will reside in the constellation of Taurus - nice and high in the sky so minimal effects of the atmosphere leading to much steadier views as your looking through less atmosphere. Cheers Paul.

[Kevdan]

Hi People,

Never been to a dark site, but luckily enough my back garden faces exactly south, with birmingham to my east (Or the big orange Blob), and neighbours dont have floodlit gardens so it does get quite dark for a suburb no intrusive streetlights either, however A clear night is still quite poor, with the mark one eyeball I can only see about 8-10 stars in the orion constellation , and looking north for anything other that the plough is very difficult, I want to go deeper into astrophotography so have today ordered a 250pds to sit on my NEQ6, I am happy with the 150p but have been told by several forums that if I increase aperture and gather more light the LP stays the same so more signal to noise, But Id love to go to a dark site even if its just with my old cheapo bins to get a feel for what im missing. Not sure how I'll get on taking the NEQ6 and a 250pds to a site. but that is my intention. Hope I can meet up with some of you guys at some point.

Kev.

[Paulus17]

Newbie question

So apart from a really true dark site which we won't get here, what would make a decent enough site for gazing and how could you tell??

What would be a good sign to see up above to tell??

[SteveWolves]

Its all really "suck it and see" we all look for good sites - look for no direct lights visible, as far away from W Mids glow as possible, safe in terms of who else might be there at night, you just need to go out and look if your lucky to get some clear sky and then you think "this not good I wish I was still at home " its all very difficult to get all of the things right at the same time and arrange to get several others along to accompany you.

We have a location near Cosford but for many the distance can be a problem and family commitments and work all get in the way.

Keep us all informed if any of you find a location to use.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies, nice 1 on the new scope Kev - even from my back garden and with the slight increase in aperture (from an 8" to 11" SCT) I found that when I got the new scope a couple of months ago now, Ursa Major was virtually overhead, after fiddling about and setting up I thought I would try for the M galaxies, so away I went and found that just the slight increase helped a little, from memory I think it was only M108 that I couldn't detect, but all the others were there with a little averted vision and I must say that after getting to grips with the mount, found it to be very accurate, my 8" SCT was a Meade LX90 which I had for a few years, it was a fantastic scope - alot of people say that the Meade electrics were a little "iffy", but I found that the scope performed really well and never had an ounce of trouble with it, really sad to see it go, but needed to sell to part fund the cpc, with the terrible weather we've been suffering with, not had a great deal of time to use the cpc, but very pleased with it, with the increase in aperture I've found that even under light polluted skies, the galaxies I'm looking for are there but as the nights now start to become longer and darker the scope will be getting used a lot more, and the search for fainter galaxies continues . . . . . .

Pauluss - think that the rule of thumb is that if you can see the MIlky Way clearly, the light pollution is at its minimum, the contrast of a very dark sky should yield the majority of galaxies probably down to mag 14 or so - but some of the larger diffuse galaxies (faint and spread over a large portion of sky) would be a little tricky I think anyway, because as I've said before, I've never been to a dark site, probably members who have can comment on the size of scope needed under really dark skies but I would think you could do alot of damage even with a 4 - 6" scope as us in the West Mids can only dream about these sky conditions.

Steve - been looking at the thread started a while ago, Cosfords a little way away from me, but just got me another motorbike now so travelling out that way would be fine but not with a cpc strapped to me back !!!! - I wonder if you could give us on here a little taster of what the skies are like at the site you go to and what aperture you use and what sort of galaxies your seeing and at what magnitudes your looking at.

Thanks again guys, its nice to know that theres alot of gazers here in the West Mids, we are all struggling with the skies here and I think as time goes on its gonna get worse - but for me the enthusiasm has always been there and sound like you guys are enjoying the hobby as much as me. Paul.

[Moonshane]

I live within 9 miles of Manchester and 3 miles of another large town so general light pollution is an issue for me. luckily my garden faces more or less east and this points at the Peak District where the skies are pretty good. therefore the bulk of my observing is north east, east and south east where the LP is better. with averted vision I can just glimpse the MW when at the zenith on the best dark nights when the neighbours are all in bed.

I have a 16" scope and can usually find most of the objects I look for but many of them are extremely faint or out of reach depending on conditions. there's still plenty to look at and I have never run out of objects, packed up and gone in thinking if only there were more.

local light pollution is more of a problem with bathroom lights left on etc. I made a blanking screen for this which blocks most of the windows near my garden other than a couple.

in terms of dark sites, I have observed near Buxton a few times where the skies are a lot better and the MW can be seen with direct vision. my best ever skies (when of course I did not even have my bins let alone my scope) were in the Lake District in a small town called Whittington nr. Kirkby Lonsdale. Out of the village the MW was literally a white milky cloud across the sky and truly awesome. I could see many familiar objects with naked eyes and would love to go back with a scope some day.

I am pretty satisfied with my general observing conditions at home but love it at darker sites.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Moonshane, thanks very much for the insight - in terms of magnitude what galaxies are you seeing, luckily for me I observe from my back garden, due east I have a large wall about 30 feet away and about 15 foot high so it shades much of the glow, SE around to S I have a row of houses, so the ecliptic is directly above the roof tops, so when the planets are low on the ecliptic I struggle with air turbulence above the roof tops - living in a built up area we all have to put up with this, even Saturn at the moment is very close to the roof line and everything near to the celestial equator and below may be -10 degrees is a real problem for me.

I've had some good apparitions of Mars and Jupiter a few years ago when nice and high above the ecliptic and also I think the next night time apparition of Jupiter resides in Taurus - so lookin good, as with all observing the higher circumpolar constellations are better when overhead, favouring the Alt Az Goto mounts as with the cpc 1100 - I used to struggle with my dob mounted 12" when searching the zenith - don't get me wrong the dob was a great scope - but the ease of Goto and a good observing position from the SCT favoured the overhead constellations but as we know light pollution washes out the fainter galaxies - so searching for them with the dob was a trial for me because I may have had them centred but due to the pollution they're all but "invisible", with the slight increase in aperture over my last SCT I've found that I can push the mag down to maybe 11 ish, so all the bright M and NGC are within my reach but the classification of magnitudes on the diffuse DSO's as we all know, are more spread out in the ep - some night they are there and others not.

We all know the different optical systems offer benefits to us all, but I think it comes down to personal preference - as with searching with a dob, you really find your way around the sky and Goto makes us all lazy, but, for me at the end of the day under such poor skies once the scope is set up and aligned the accuracy of the Goto for overhead gazing won it for me - I think if I lived where the Milky Way was "plastered" across the sky then the dob would be for me.

Thanks again Moonshane regards and clear DARK skies to ya. Paul

[laser_jock99]

I made the decision to sell up & move to Mid Wales four years ago (though I'm still working in the Midlands at present) not only for dark skies but for general quality of life reasons. The only crime round here is sheep rustling, you can still leave your doors unlocked etc. etc.

I still use a telescope when in the Midlands but there's no comparision to Mid Wales where faint objects like M33 are easily seen. From our garden there are no lights visible and the Milky Way goes down to the souther horizon.

The only answer is get away frome the city as often as you can to have some quality time with the stars as nature intended.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Laser sounds like you've got it right there, I've never seen the Milky Way and I suppose the 6" reflector really works well at your location - what sort of magnitudes regarding galaxies are you observing from Mid Wales and I bet you never have "invisible" galaxies in the ep - nice 1 laser I can only dream and envy your observing sessions regards Paul.

[Dazzyd]

The only answer is get away frome the city as often as you can to have some quality time with the stars as nature intended.

You're right. We obviously want to find half decent observing sites nearish to home but I think I'm going to start going much further afield towards the welsh border maybe once a month once the darker nights roll in again. I don't think doing it more often is good on the wallet with the cost of fuel now but once a month, for me at least, is easily doable. The travel and cost will be worth it just to be able to spend 4-6 hours underneath the stars sans the dreaded light pollution.

I was thinking maybe somewhere near Clun, maybe on the Clun Castle grounds, it's about an hour drive there for me which, for 6 hours of clear dark skies, is worth it

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Daz, check out the links on Jocs signature (Cambrian Observatory), his photos of the Milky way are amazing wonder how we would get on with skies like that, from Steves earlier post it looks like Cosford would be good as I think he said that the milky way was visible from there and not too far for us, could do with finding the location at Cosford and a meet when Steve and others are there. Paul

[s7iffler]

What about clent hills? High up with 360deg views? I'm new to this so only guessing at a location.

Rich

[Dazzyd]

What about clent hills? High up with 360deg views? I'm new to this so only guessing at a location.

Rich

I've thought about Clent but you can only get so far to the top and then you have to walk with your kit. The OTA is ok but the mounts can be very heavy. I think you get a fair few boy racers up there too

[s7iffler]

Just a thought, what about clee hills? Never been myself but thinking higher up the better?

[Dazzyd]

Yeah I've been thinking about Clee Hills, I think that would be quite a good place to go. Looking on the light pollution maps it looks like it's very low on the LP so should give some fantastic views It's just about finding a good place around there. Time for Google maps and street

[s7iffler]

I've been looking at campsites around that area, as we tow a caravan it would be ideal to have a weekend of stargazing

[s7iffler]

Even Malvern is easy to get to with great views, takes about 30mins down the M5 what you think Daz?

[Dazzyd]

Malvern would be good too, I used to work in Malvern. Going up the hills there are plenty of car parks and you're actually above the LP. Not sure what those places are like for boy racers and canine enthusiasts but worth a try

[Andy_E]

This link may be of use (detailed light pollution map)

Andy

http://www.avex-asso.org/dossiers/pl/uk/index.html

[cantab]

It's pretty bad where I am, in the inner city regions. There's a little consolation in that there's no local LP provided the neighbours have gone to sleep, but I'm only 2 miles from the town centre so the skyglow especially to the west is really bad. That said, before last autumn when I went out to try and spot UARS I didn't even think I would see the number of stars that I do.

Conditions get annoying at times, mainly when I'm unable to see things that I'm sure ought to be within the capabilities of my equipment, if only the sky were darker. But then there are other things I've looked for that probably were over-ambitious.

Best sky I ever saw was on Berneray in the outer Hebrides. I didn't get much time to look at it though, it was the middle of the night and cold. I don't drive myself, so to my knowledge there aren't any dark sites I can get to without making a holiday of it. I've decided that my next holiday will be to somewhere with dark skies and good odds of them being clear.

[Moonshane]

Hi Moonshane, thanks very much for the insight - in terms of magnitude what galaxies are you seeing, luckily for me I observe from my back garden, due east I have a large wall about 30 feet away and about 15 foot high so it shades much of the glow, SE around to S I have a row of houses, so the ecliptic is directly above the roof tops, so when the planets are low on the ecliptic I struggle with air turbulence above the roof tops - living in a built up area we all have to put up with this, even Saturn at the moment is very close to the roof line and everything near to the celestial equator and below may be -10 degrees is a real problem for me.

I've had some good apparitions of Mars and Jupiter a few years ago when nice and high above the ecliptic and also I think the next night time apparition of Jupiter resides in Taurus - so lookin good, as with all observing the higher circumpolar constellations are better when overhead, favouring the Alt Az Goto mounts as with the cpc 1100 - I used to struggle with my dob mounted 12" when searching the zenith - don't get me wrong the dob was a great scope - but the ease of Goto and a good observing position from the SCT favoured the overhead constellations but as we know light pollution washes out the fainter galaxies - so searching for them with the dob was a trial for me because I may have had them centred but due to the pollution they're all but "invisible", with the slight increase in aperture over my last SCT I've found that I can push the mag down to maybe 11 ish, so all the bright M and NGC are within my reach but the classification of magnitudes on the diffuse DSO's as we all know, are more spread out in the ep - some night they are there and others not.

We all know the different optical systems offer benefits to us all, but I think it comes down to personal preference - as with searching with a dob, you really find your way around the sky and Goto makes us all lazy, but, for me at the end of the day under such poor skies once the scope is set up and aligned the accuracy of the Goto for overhead gazing won it for me - I think if I lived where the Milky Way was "plastered" across the sky then the dob would be for me.

Thanks again Moonshane regards and clear DARK skies to ya. Paul

Hi Paul

I recently found the supernova in NGC 4424 and could detect the whiff of cloud that is the galaxy. This is M 11.7 but in truth I think I'd have struggled to detect the galaxy on its own without the best of my nights. I tend to prefer the brighter objects too at home.

Not used this scope at a really dark site in good conditions yet - here's hoping!

[SteveWolves]

Titterstone Clee has a road up to a car park area that could be good, would need checking out at night by someone.

Camping is good at say the site in Culmington off the B4365 near Craven Arms, spent a weekend there with Walsall AS members

and at Ratlinghope on the far side of the Long Mynd. I am always looking for good camping and observing sites but the problem is having to book a pitch then poor skies all weekend. Ratlinghope is a big field so just turning up is an option but there is no power.

So are you all looking for a site that can be visited at very short notice - thats the problem.

One other thing when someone finds a location that suits all of the requirements they can be reluctant to let on as having no control of who turnes up and when can break any arrangement made with a landowner.

[IanLinux]

I made the decision to sell up & move

I think this may be the only answer. Trouble is, I'm stuck for work in Birmingham. Having tried to get back into astronomy since my youth, deciding on a suitable discipline given the light-rich skies in Birmingham is proving difficult. My real interests now are deep sky and imaging...but...<shrugs shoulders>