despair,do i sell up or spend a small fortune on something bigger

[crbazzer]

Right, here's my predicament.At the moment i have a skywatcher explorer 130P goto scope which is nice, but i'm getting a little bored with just seeing small images of jupiter and saturn , so much so that i am on the verge of selling up and finding a different hobby,i can't see even the easiest nebula apart from a very dim grey cloud in orion and thats on a good night. i don't want to sell up really because i'm fascinated with space and everything in it. Now do i spend a small fortune and buy a 12" dob and a shed to house it in, and will this 12" dob fire up my enthusiasm again by showing me good images of nebulae and descent size ,good detail of the planets or will i be wasting my money. Please help me decide by giving me your advise.

[John]

How long have you had your scope and many times have you used it ?

[benjii]

I think peoples expectations of visual astronomy can be unrealistic sometimes. In a built up area with my 8" dob, all I see is dim smudges as nebulas. The pictures of planets you see, even from members in this forum, have been enlarged and the image improved through postprocessing. Add to that the visual seeing in the UK isn't superb anyway, astronomy becomes more about seeking the illusive details as opposed to seeing a planet that fills your eyepiece.

For proper detail you need to find a dark site, the images will still be small, but it's the details you can pick out that are breath taking.

[ollypenrice]

I wonder, first, how realistic your expectations are? I was observing Saturn and Mars last night at 245x and 280x in a premium 5.5 inch refractor. The seeing was as good as it gets and the view was exquisite, on Saturn the best I've ever seen with clear banding on the disk, Cassini's and a hint of the Crepe ring. Now my point is, I think that you would not expect to do much better in a lifetime's observing yet the magnificatioon was not outlandish. We'd have gone higher but I simply don't have a shorter FL eyepiece. In the UK most people stick at 200x. You only need an 8 inch Newt to get to that image scale comfortably.

Deep sky is a different matter and for that you need, above all, a dark site. From a dark site 8 inches will reveal quite a lot.

Olly

[themos]

Now do i spend a small fortune and buy a 12" dob

I bought mine second hand for £350 or so. Hardly a fortune.

[bish]

I think you have to decide whether the visual side is really for you. Nothing wrong with being an avid arm chair astronomer, I didn't have a scope for years but have always been interested nonetheless. I had a 150p for a couple of years observing from a very restricted balcony under terrible light pollution and loved it, just because I had found something. Others might think looking at small faint fuzzy things you can barely see is daft.

[crbazzer]

thanks for your reply's

John, i've not had the scope for very long and i use it as often as the weather and work permits, which lately hasen't been too often.the last session was last night. called it a draw about 10pm when the clouds came in. I know i may be expecting too much but if i knew a bigger scope would make a big difference i would be happy to spend the money.

And Themos, money sounds not to be an issue to you, so aren't you the lucky one.

[TRNunes]

Are you a member of your local astronomy group? I ask because local groups often provide access to larger 'scopes (and sometimes even observatories), can be a great source of advice about the challenges of your own local skies, and may have dark sky sites you can use as well. I only bring up joining a local group because your local skies a key to new 'scope selection (i.e. you could have the world's largest 'scope but, if there's a lot of light pollution or other environmental factors in your area, it might not make that much of a difference).

Good luck, and clear (and dark) skies!

[pajr777]

This might help: Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script>

First, click on "Switch to visual view", then play around by entering aperture and focal length etc or select a preset 'scope.

It doesn't account for seeing conditions but at least gives you an idea of how big an object would appear.

[LukeSkywatcher]

As Bish says, "you have to decide if visual astronomy is for you". No point in spending more money if you are still going to feel let down with the views. I cant see how you would feel let down but everyone is different. Ive observed planets in a 90mm,130mm and 200mm scope and happy with all the views.

The planets have by no means filled my field of view and i wouldnt expect them too. The size of the image between 130mm and 200mm is not vastly bigger (with 200mm(8"), Jupiter is the size of a pea held at arms length). Mars is still tiny in an 8" scope but when the conditions are right, the detail is amazing.

Galaxies etc will always be "faint fuzzies" unless you have a BIG scope (12"+ and dark skies).

When observing, its not really what i am actually looking at that impresses me the most but the thought of how far away it is, how big it is and how far/long the light has travelled to get here. Thats when you really start to appreciate what you are looking at.

p.s.~~except for the planets.............pretty much everything else you observe will show no colour. Thats not because of the telescope but rather the inability of t5he human eye to see colour over long distances.

Stick with it and give your 130P a good try. It really is a good scope. Lower your expectations and just be happy/enjoy that what you are seeing is as good as can be with your scope.

If you still want to go bigger then you really dont need to go bigger then 8". You can if you want but that involves spending a large amount of cash............nt to mention other issues like portability etc.

HTH

Paul

[LukeSkywatcher]

This might help: Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script>

First, click on "Switch to visual view", then play around by entering aperture and focal length etc or select a preset 'scope.

It doesn't account for seeing conditions but at least gives you an idea of how big an object would appear.

Yep good site. Its pretty accurate really as to how big objects will appear.

This is just about spot on for how Jupiter appears (size wise) in my 8" SCT: I see more colour then is shown here. Notice that this is without a barlow lens.

*Click on image to enlarge*

p.s.~~~The EP i selected is not exactly correct. I have a FOV of 50 degrees and not 65 as calculated. No biggie though as this only changes the amount of sky around the actual image

[Tribal-Wolf]

I think a visit to a local astronomy club might be a plan. You can then judge for yourself if you can get a look through some other scopes. When you think of the scope used to discover most of the known objects and planets then a 130P is miles better. If I were you I'd persevere with your scope and see how your interest holds, it's not worth spending more money until you have exhausted the potential of the scope you have. I used to have a 60/900F refractor and seen many of the things that are on the list of 'must see' objects and some are no more impressive through my 8" dob because finding them for the first time was far more satisfying.

Try a club though or you may find yourself with a bigger scope, less money and even more disappointment.

[Moonshane]

I have used scopes from 120mm (refractor), 6", 8" and 12" dobs through to my current 16" dobsonian. personally, I am solely a visual astronomer living in quite a poor area for light pollution (between Manchester and Stockport) and have found that aperture really matters when it comes to almost all objects. ignoring planets initially, I find star clusters, both open and globular are both much better with aperture and nebulae / galaxies are 1) possible to observe and 2) much better, the higher in aperture you go.there really is no substitute for aperture for visual astronomy.

For double stars, moon and planets, the observing style and requirements are slightly different. I find that the image is far bEtter when the aperture of my 16" scope is restricted with an aperture mask to about 6" as this creates more contrast etc.

As a result of the above I have three scopes.

1) a large dob for general use - this is the scope I'd keep if I had to sell everything else.

2) a small 'planetary dob' of 6" aperture and f11 so a long focal length

3) a 6" widefield f5 scope which gives nice wide views of the sky but with mcuch less aperture.

In short, the more aperture you buy, the more satisfying the views.

Planetary views through an 8" dob as Olly says would be very good as would many other objects. a 12" dob is moving into another area of viewing experience but bear in mind they are large, heavy and not cheap. is a large aperture scope woth it? yes, indeed. it's also the only scope you need in some ways as you can as mentioned, mask off the aperture to create a long focal length scope with a smaller more contrasty aperture and no central obstruction.

if you can get to a meetng of a local astro club then this might help you decide but the sky is not going anywhere so don't rush anything.

[themos]

And Themos, money sounds not to be an issue to you, so aren't you the lucky one.

I was pointing out that you can get a 12 inch dob for a bit over what the equipment in the first line of YOUR signature costs new.

[crbazzer]

thankyou all, very sound advice, think my first step is to see if there any clubs in this area, sure there are, and go visit or join one.

thanks moonshane for your input, i'm sure a larger scope would be better. my area too is not so good.

lukeskywatcher : i was amazed and delighted with the views of jupiter and especially saturn, and the moon is great but i would truly like to see more, i do understand the size won't be much bigger and i'm happy with that, but i would love to see more nebulae and other galaxies which i don't think i can with what i have at the moment.

Themos: i know what you meant, only joking.

Pajr777: this is a great program .Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script> thanks for the link.

once again thanks to everyone for your comments and advice, i don't think i'll be selling up just yet.

[steve_bham]

My first scope was an old nexstar 5 and the views I got was stunning (to me anyway) I knew I would never see Hubble quality but viewing the DSO in an eyepiece was amazing even if it was faint.

[crbazzer]

Just been playing around with the Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script>. does anyone know if this is accurate, i ungerstand it depends on light pollution and things, but if it is then 12" dob here i come.

[LukeSkywatcher]

lukeskywatcher : i was amazed and delighted with the views of jupiter and especially saturn, and the moon is great but i would truly like to see more, i do understand the size won't be much bigger and i'm happy with that, but i would love to see more nebulae and other galaxies which i don't think i can with what i have at the moment.

Trust me. You can see them with 130mm. They wont knock your socks off, but you will see them (the bigger brighter ones). It sounds to me like you have a bad case of aperture fever (we all suffer from it). If this is the case (and i understand it), then by all means buy an 8" Dob.

You wont have Go-To with the 8" Dob so you will have to find everything by yourself (not a bad thing)...............but i detect that you are/would be happier with Go-To.

You are fairly new to the hobby?

There is nothing wrong with going "back to basics"..................starting afresh. Learning the night sky and finding objects under your own power.

I think an 8" DOB would be great for you. And also maybe the lastest edition of "Turn Left At Orion".

Paul.

[LukeSkywatcher]

Just been playing around with the Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script>. does anyone know if this is accurate, i ungerstand it depends on light pollution and things, but if it is then 12" dob here i come.

Size wise its pretty accurate. It doesnt take into consideratin LP, local "seeing" etc. It shows objects under ideal conditions (best case scenario).

[RikM]

Just been playing around with the Field of view Calculator<script src="title2.js"></script>. does anyone know if this is accurate, i ungerstand it depends on light pollution and things, but if it is then 12" dob here i come.

No, it's not!!!

This is not how objects actually look like through any scope. Size-wise they are right, but you won't see this amount of detail or colour. These are things you only get in long exposure photo images

This gives more realistic examples of how objects actually look in a larger scope with dark skies on a good night.

Eyepiece views from a 10" scope

[Frank the Troll]

No disprespect here:

But just what would you be happy with? Hubble type views?

If there is a secret, its knowing what your looking at, and how to find it.

As the ladies will tell you, size doesnt matter, it what you do with it that counts.

I was quiet happy in my ignorance with a jessops scope for quite a few years, before looking down between my legs.

Make the most of what you have before moving on

There is sense in the above, somewhere! Just depends on how much 'magnification' you want!

[Tribal-Wolf]

Ladies only say that to 'small' men though apparently lol

[Frank the Troll]

Ladies only say that to 'small' men though apparently lol

Ive never had that, when I mention an extension, they say NO WAY thats more than enough thank you"

Small, medium, large, you will always find a fit.

Be happy!

[LeoLion]

Crbazzer, Regarding astro societies - If you have car transport out of Cleckheckmonsidge then visit Huddersfield AS Huddersfield Astronomical Society | Official Society Website . Scopes up to 16" and some smaller ones for loan. Batley has its own group here Untitled Document and they have a 14 or a 16" Newt . Fairly quiet there - mind you it could be 25 years since I visited their observatory !

There is also Bradford AS index .

Have a trip down to Birstall and visit Green Witch North 's shop Telescopes and Binoculars from Green Witch of Cambridge, the Astronomy Specialists. Dr Lee Sproats runs the new shop there. I'm a little bit further into the Pennines not far from the M62 .

Visually observing is the art of 'learning to see' , as is microscopy (which used to be part of my laboratory skill set).

Another thing to have fun with is the Bradford Robotic Telescope ( when its fully functioning ) here Bradford Robotic Telescope - University of Bradford for free . Hope you find what you are looking for

[John]

Enough of the "Carry On" humour folks - it's a family forum

Back on topic, much of visual astronomy is about subtle detail and hard won glimpses of barely visible graduations of contrast. Larger scopes and better seeing conditions enhance things to some extent but it's rare that the visual view will rival a photographic image, not unheard of, but rare, IMHO.

I'm sure there are a % of newcomers to the hobby who, having given it a fair try, will wonder why we bother. I do myself some nights and I've been in the hobby 30+ years