Guiding conversion project for 200p and EQ5

[Quatermass]

There are no stupid questions when you want to learn more and asking questions is how we all learn from each other. Sharing it with others on this forum is a great way to learn so never feel like your asking a daft question ask away and get the information you need.

[Aenima]

Cheers QM,

Where I am now there are two ways to go - trying to sort out better polaralignment via software/polr-scope whilst letting the laptop control tracking and such, and making the attempt to use guiding (again via software and goto kit, hopefully with a finderguider) and i'm really not sure which option to make my priority, as I dont know enough about the technical aspects of the equipment involved and the one thing I do know is that with a compromised set-up like mine certain limits - gears,weight,stability etc etc. - will render some of these options less useful than others.

For example, the ST80 makes an excellent guidescope but with my 200p on a EQ5 it will only add to the weight problem and be a waste of time. Another example is some guiding methods that really work well on HEQ5's wont be any good with the EQ5 as the gear precision is too low.

Obviously this is not gospel (i dont know enough to be sure of it) but hopefully you know what i'm on about.

Is there a guiding method that works with the synscan port that's on the EQ5? Could I extend my exp times another way or is guiding pretty much the next step?

I dont mind if its controlled with laptop or handset, not bothered about standing out in the cold - just want to get more than 30sec exposures with my set-up.

The reasons for keeping the EQ5 versus selling to get heq5 is mostly having to carry it out every session, its about at My weight limit but also i'm stubbornly trying to stick with it as its the stuff i've got now and selling everything to get another mount is a last resort.

Many thanks

Aenima

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aenima

[Quatermass]

Its hard to answer your question as I never used the synscan unit on my eq5 and I thought with a synscan your drive motors were able to handle an auto guider as they were a higher ratio then those offered on the dual axis control box. However weight is another factor that is why I went for using the finder scope and the webcam plus the canon 350d is a light camera.

Your really pushing it with the 200p on the eq5 and adding a bigger guide scope will push it over the limit creating problems. The other option is doing lots of shorter subs of 70-80 seconds which should be possible with the eq5 if you check your worm gears and remove all slack from them then do about 80 of these shorter subs. But to get longer exposures I simply used my eq5 with phd the modified control box and a webcam in the finder scope. I also used two finder scopes one to find my target and then one with a webcam on it to replace the other one once my target was found thus keeping the weight issue down. Its a tricky fine balance and not ideal but it does work, just. Of course your next problem will be the noise from longer exposures using an SLR camera rather then a dedicated ccd camera. None of this is ideal and although it can be fun to do all this it can also be very frustrating when time is at a limit on cloudy nights my main reasons for carrying on with it were lack of money for a better mount and curiosity. I proved to myself it could be done but give me the money for a better mount and I would go for that option. Hope that helps.

Qm

[Aenima]

Yeah, man, given the option i'd have to agree - the idea of not having to worry about getting a full minute exposure with no trails is very appealing. And i'd love to be able to keep my 200p, its a great scope with a bit of care and attention the optics can really deliver good views though with a f5 fl collimation needs to be perfect, which mine is not.

Looking at my signature i'd entertain selling the 130p goto to help pay for the heq5, or something along those lines - better one scope that does what I want than two that cant quite do the job.

Anyway, back to the point. Yeah i'm certainly not gonna use a big guidescope and if possible - by using goto, maybe - will just have a finder/guider scope, if needed my telrad can go on and come off v easily. My problem then is guiding methods, and how to use it economically but effectively enough to make guiding worthwhile at all.

Appreciate the info, dude, thnx.

One thing - what exactly is hand guiding? And how is guiding different to autoguiding?

Cheers

Aenima

Edited January 10, 2013 by Aenima

[badgerchap]

Hand guiding is where you sit and watch through the guidescope / or on screen, and make adjustments to the mount yourself. Long and laborious if you ask me! Quite hardcore!

Can I ask either of you if you know the weight of your 200p's?

[Aenima]

Hand guiding is where you sit and watch through the guidescope / or on screen, and make adjustments to the mount yourself. Long and laborious if you ask me! Quite hardcore!

Can I ask either of you if you know the weight of your 200p's?

Does 'too heavy' count as an answer?

No idea really, there will be an official number on the site but never actually weighed it meself, sorry,

Aenima

EDIT: wow, i really like your pics on the blog link in your signature O.O !

Edited January 10, 2013 by Aenima

[badgerchap]

's alright. I just kinda use QM as a benchmark really - he did some great stuff in his EQ5 days so my thinking is if I can keep below the weight of a 200p like him then I'm alright!

[Quatermass]

I did weigh it cant remember what was but do remember it was at it max with the camera and finder scope. Best to get out there and try these things out then you learn what works. Trouble is the weather does not want to play ball at the moment.

Sent from my GT-S5670 using Tapatalk 2

[badgerchap]

Hmm...curious double post. Sorry

[kyokugaisha]

I have a quick question about this mod. I've ordered the parts for the ST4 port conversion to use a guidescope with the EQ5 and I was wondering whether it could be used as a primitive GOTO mount. I appreciate the slew speed would be much slower than normal but if I were to use ASCOM compatible software to align it (if possible!) and moved the scope to the general vicinity of the object could I slew it to the object with the software? I was thinking of something like Cartes du Ciel or Deep Sky 2000.

[Quatermass]

I dont think it would work Marc and its much quicker to just find the object with your finder scope and move the scope by hand. I tend to use a pair of 10x50 binoculars and use Stellarium on the laptop to find the area then aim my finder scope in the area and take a few 40 second shots to see if the target is in the frame. I then just nudge it so it fits into the frame with the control box buttons. Once framed up the next bit is getting a star that is the tricky bit and I only did it on really good clear nights as it took so long to get set up and it was very frustrating getting it all going then having some clouds move in after all that effort. Have to say the weather has been so awful the though of going out there in the snow for hours does not appeal at all right now mybe if I had an obsy it would be a different matter. When I was doing this guiding last winter it was cold but snow free for most of the time which made life a lot easier.

[kyokugaisha]

Thanks for the reply QM. I thought so but was just trying to be a bit cheap and lazy

BTW thank you for this thread and all the work you and the others have done putting this together and saving plebs like me all the time and mistakes! Your results have been really impressive and inspiring.

[Quatermass]

Your welcome Marc

Doing the mod was interesting and fun to do but given the choice I would have gone for the HEQ5 if I could have afforded its a shame astrophotography gear is so expensive but where there is a will there is a frozen astrophotographer.

[badgerchap]

Your welcome Marc

Doing the mod was interesting and fun to do but given the choice I would have gone for the HEQ5 if I could have afforded its a shame astrophotography gear is so expensive but where there is a will there is a frozen astrophotographer.

Hear, hear. I think we'd all happily spend many thousands or tens of thousands if we had it knocking around, but then I think threads like this make the struggle and heartache much more bearable! But seriously, I do enjoy the DIY and working out for myself.

[Aenima]

Yep! a +1 for everyone having tons of money and huge telescopes !

I like big telescopes.

Aenima

[kyokugaisha]

Well, the kit arrived and miraculously I managed to solder everything (including my finger - ouch) correctly. Had first chance to check if everything was working on Sunday night and got the magical guiding notification (for RA and Dec) in PHD after a bit of fiddling - so all is good! However in my excitement I forgot to check the graph! Only thing I couldn't do was try some long exposure shots thanks to the full moon. Anything more than 30 seconds was washed out. Proper tests shall resume at the next moonless opportunity.

[Quatermass]

Great stuff hope it all goes well for you.

Sent from my GT-S5670 using Tapatalk 2

[kyokugaisha]

Managed to get a couple of hours to try everything properly on Saturday night. PHD seemed happy as I aimed for M45 - plenty of guide stars there! Decided to just go for as many 5 min subs as I could before running out of patience and processing them to see the final picture. Have to say, even though there was a slight wobble in the dec axis that shows in the star shapes, I was more than happy with the result. In fact, I can't quite belive my little setup could produce this image! It was only 20 minutes of data with darks, flats and bias frames as well.

[Quatermass]

very nice indeed very pleased you have it all working.

Sent from my GT-S5670 using Tapatalk 2

[bobo99]

Very interested in this and would like to perform the same mod to my current EQ5 (with an 8" Newtonian F/5)

2 options:

1)Upgrade to a CG5 GT mount or

2) perform this mod, for much cheaper and same performance.

Question: Can this mod be rigged together with another peice of software to provide goto capability via stelarium or similar software?

[Quatermass]

My answer would be avoid go to as not using go to you will become much better at finding things yourself. I used two finder scopes one to find my target with along with stellarium and a pair of 10x50 binoculars. Once I am roughly in line with my target I take a 30 second shot iso 1600. This will show up faint galaxy's and nebula. I then use backyard eos to frame and focus swop the finderscopes over and start guiding once on a star nearby.

cloud cloud go away come again another day

[Aenima]

I'd like to post a little update if I may.

Partly for reference - my particular path to long exposures may have bearing on someone elses current struggle (and no, 'struggle' isn't used for drama - it IS a struggle! ) and partly to thank the many members here on SGL regarding my initial confusion and questions, I finally got some guided exposures happily reaching 300sec using my 200p, EQ5, 9x50 finderscope/toucam finderguider.

I since ruined my laptop so its all on hold for now but the main thing is that thanks to the advice from SGL, Yahoo EQMOD group and a nice chap on facebook I finally managed it.

Having goto is a strange mixed blessing. It is very nice to set-up and be 'goto-ing' in minutes - and unguided you can still manage 60secs exposures, but with guiding the goto tends to become an extra system that needs configuring before you start guided imaging.

When you configure goto with ASCOM/EQMOD, a planetarium program like cartes du ciel / stellarium takes control of the mount and performs the goto's, but it needs to be sync'd to the synscan firmware which means losing the handy handset and pressing keys on the laptop to slew. (a wireless gamepad is a bonus here) while straining to look in the eyepiece.

The requirement is that for PhD or similar software to control the synscan it has to talk through the ASCOM driver directly, taking the handset out of the equation, and the laptop assumes control in order for the guiding software to be in harmony with the mount. This means aligning via the computer screen. But the finderscope is still needed for this, so if like me your finder is now a guidescope, aiming the scope can be tricky! - you need two finders or you can swap after star-alignment, so QM's plan of using a second finder is probably the better of the two options - Otherwise, I would sync the scope/mount to the computer software by finderscope, then unscrew the rear EP to attach the webcam to the finder, get it focused and then calibrate PhD. this can take all night. So be ready to find another way of lining up your scope for alignment using the laptop.

But once all this is done:

1.Set up.

2.Power on. 3.Connect the mount to the laptop and to EQMOD. 4. Configure the two with ASCOM and connect in your planetarium software.

For goto users this is where you lose your precious handset and have to use computer keys while stretching to view through the finder and EP - or use a gamepad - and sync the mount to PC. Cartes du ciel is quite easy in my opinion slightly easier than stellarium, but only just.

5.Then you find/choose your target for the night.

6.Attach the guider and calibrate PhD on a bright-ish star

Note: let it settle into guiding - letting it settle helps to smooth out the kinks, the RA "Hysteresis" kinda learns as it goes and PhD works better after its 'got the hang of the rhythm' for a few minutes. Also, the guiding pulse' gain' in the set-up under PhD's "Brain" menu needs to go right up due to the finder being short in F/length. (Mine didn't get going until I upped it to 4000! from a default of, I think, 750.

aaaand then- 7.Center the target.

8. Push Here Dummy....... and off it goes, .

Hope some of it helps someone looking to, or trying to, set up a budget finderguider (with or without goto) on their EQ5/200p - 9x50 / spc package. I never thought it would work but it does.

http://www.flickr.co...lus/9030192598/

Now to fix my laptop.

Regards

Aenima

[Quatermass]

Wow can't believe this thread is still going seems ages since I started it. Sounds like success is yours at last good to hear its all going OK. After all this time has gone by my feelings on the project are if you love tinkering and like a challenge its fun to do this but getting an HEQ5 mount should be your aim in the long run if your going to be imaging for several years to come. But this project does teach you one thing guiding is a pain to do and takes ages to get set up.

I tend to favour just working with lots of short sub's about 50- 80 seconds if I can get away with it rather then set up the guiding system as often time is short and clouds move in.

I never realised when I first started imaging just how important the mount was or how important a good dark sky and learning to process my images would be. Those three things your mount choice of dark site and processing skills make a massive difference to your final results. So getting a good solid mount choosing a dark site and learning the dark art of processing your images are crucial to better images. That and being willing to spend hours out in the cold unless you are lucky enough to have your own cosy observatory .

But this forum is going to be your best mate if you really want to improve keep up the good work

QM

cloud cloud go away come again another day

[Aenima]

Yeah, mate cheers - couldn't agree more. I also prefer the fast and light approach but making progress is part of the whole obsession isn't it? I liked the idea of guiding slightly more than the actual guiding tasks themselves. Some targets, ones you wanted to try but couldn't get the exposures as long as it needed, is enough to keep you moving along and always hoping for the next 'favourite' object.

So much of my processing is stunted by the lack of a coma corrector and 'in your face' light pollution, not skyglow just a couple of gazillion watt security and street lights right next door.

But you are definitely right with the three 'must have' things to do decent imaging - mount, software skills and dark sky --- its nice though to see good stuff from lesser set-ups around the forums where folks have really put their gear through the grinder so to speak

All the best,

Regards

Aenima

Edited August 29, 2013 by Aenima

[Quatermass]

Yes indeed, all part of the fun and you learn a lot as you progress. I still have loads more to learn but that's fine by me. Glad to hear your enjoying it all I love imaging the amazing things up there. Guiding is something I really wish I had more money to spend on but I like doing things on a budget as well. It would be great to have an Atik camera and a full guiding set up with an EQ6 guide scope and camera etc but it all costs so much and I am more then happy with the images I have managed to get with my budget gear. Hope you keep finding many more wonderful thing in the night sky, we live in an amazing universe.

cloud cloud go away come again another day