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coulthamst

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As I mentioned in my previous posts, the outlines of the objects I saw consisted unmistakeably of the straight lines and sharply defined angles  to be seen in the many available pictures of the B2 aircraft. All of the objects were identical, and I witnessed the c8 object groupings on three separate occasions. I cannot accept that such shapes are to be found in "nature". We will have to agree to disagree.

Edited by coulthamst

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There is no point in having a discussion when the mind is made up and will not be changed..

Typed on a handheld screen.

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Another few reasons why I have my doubts that was was seen was an aircraft as described, are:

  1. The visual return of city lighting on an aircraft at a few tens of kilometres distance is very very low. The colour scheme used on the long range bombers (that are non-nuclear) is specifically designed to be difficult to see against the night sky. Nuclear bombers were painted bright white to minimise the heating effect on the aircraft skin from a nuclear explosion. To be able to see an aircraft as lighter than the background and without nav lights present, would require a decent searchlight to illuminate sufficiently at that distance.
  2. Our ability to see definite shape under very low illumination conditions is pretty poor - just see how hard it is to see low contrast details on deep sky objects which needs minutes of steady study to be certain of vague features. It would be pretty impressive to be accurate in seeing correct details on poorly illuminated objects moving at speed at night.
  3. Analysing the described objects, if they were birds of light colour plumage at a range in the low thousand metres, they would be tens of times easier to distinguish than a camouflage-painted aircraft at a range of tens of kilometres, to the point of being more definite about shape etc.

For me to change my mind I's have to see radar records or other aviation records showing such an overflight, and to see aircraft of the types suggested with paint schemes that would be easily visible at night. I've not yet seen either.

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Another few reasons why I have my doubts that was was seen was an aircraft as described, are:

  1. The visual return of city lighting on an aircraft at a few tens of kilometres distance is very very low. The colour scheme used on the long range bombers (that are non-nuclear) is specifically designed to be difficult to see against the night sky. Nuclear bombers were painted bright white to minimise the heating effect on the aircraft skin from a nuclear explosion. To be able to see an aircraft as lighter than the background and without nav lights present, would require a decent searchlight to illuminate sufficiently at that distance.
  2. Our ability to see definite shape under very low illumination conditions is pretty poor - just see how hard it is to see low contrast details on deep sky objects which needs minutes of steady study to be certain of vague features. It would be pretty impressive to be accurate in seeing correct details on poorly illuminated objects moving at speed at night.
  3. Analysing the described objects, if they were birds of light colour plumage at a range in the low thousand metres, they would be tens of times easier to distinguish than a camouflage-painted aircraft at a range of tens of kilometres, to the point of being more definite about shape etc.

For me to change my mind I's have to see radar records or other aviation records showing such an overflight, and to see aircraft of the types suggested with paint schemes that would be easily visible at night. I've not yet seen either.

There is no point in having a discussion when the mind is made up and will not be changed..

Typed on a handheld screen.

Just saying :D

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At least I know what it would take given what I know and my experience. Also, I can only give educated guesses as I didn't see the original observation.

If more information comes to light, or alternative more accurate ideas, then I'll certainly look differently at it, I'm perfectly willing to be wrong!

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Unable to create and load a drawing I'm afraid - IT numpty! I was viewing through an 8" F5 Dob at an elevation of arounf 60-70 degrees, in the N -E sector, with an 66x UW eyepeice  (82 degree. Seeing was good for an inner city site. The fleet of objects passed through the field of view quite quickly, about 4 seconds. Each individual object was identical, roughly 4mm in the eyepiece, and of a basic obtuse angled isosceles triangle form. The end of each side ended in a parallel sided vestigial wing with sharply squared off end. I cannot recall noting a "serrated" rear form similar to the B2 Spirit aircraft, but in all other respects they appeared as I briefly saw them to be of the same form as those planes.They were all of the same hue, a flat pale grey tint. The grouping was, like the objects themselves, absolutely geometrical in configuration, but owing to the speed of travel and my surprise at their appearance, I failed to accurately count the number of objects on each of the occasions (three) that I observed them. The sightings were weeks or months apart. On each occasion the groups were headed in a generally ENE direction (corrected for telescope reversed view). Their altitude must have been considerable having regard to the apparent size of aircraft landing locally at Yeadon when passing through telescope view.

For the benefit of those who advise that there were no radar reports of such objects, surely the design of the B2 Spirit is intended to be radar invisible?

I do not claim that they were, in fact, B2 Spirits, but until someone produces evidence of another aircraft of similar but not identical configuration I will regard them as the most likely candidate to date.

I repeat, these could only have been man-made objects. I am not aware of any airborne  living creature, lantern, kite etc that would appear in such a geometrically regular form.

Looking forward to constructive (and no longer dismissive) comments.

Edited by coulthamst

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Given how incredibly rare and unlikely a grouping of aircraft of that type would be and you've happened upon them using an instrument with a limited field of view a number of times I'd suggest you've caught a relatively common event, i.e. birds.

Also number of UAV's have a similar profile to a B2 (only 21 made), for example BAe's Taranis, but they are also around in very low numbers.  

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Given how incredibly rare and unlikely a grouping of aircraft of that type would be and you've happened upon them using an instrument with a limited field of view a number of times I'd suggest you've caught a relatively common event, i.e. birds.

Also number of UAV's have a similar profile to a B2 (only 21 made), for example BAe's Taranis, but they are also around in very low numbers.  

I'd tend to agree with this.

Given that only about 9 of the fleet is available at any one time, then the chances of seeing 8-10 of them, over Leeds, three times in five years is highly improbable if not impossible.

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This thread somehow reminds me of this Monty Python sketch

No it doesn't :grin:

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The Eurofighter Typhoon has a delta shape and is far more likely over British skies. At distance they may be similar looking to B2. Just suggesting other possibilities.

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The "Red Arrows"? - or the Yorkshiremen from the Python Sketch - "Whould have thought weed be flying in formation over Leeds Bradford and confusing t'astronomers". "Aye - we never had t'elescope when we were young, we had a bog-roll, with no collimation either!" - "Bog roll - you were lucky, we a rolled-up copy of t'Harrogate Weekly Advertiser, thick fog, pouring rain, t'10/t'10 cloud and were blinded by our parents at birth."

Actually, I've seen many phenomena up in the air that have puzzled me - weird flashes up on the moors (aurora perhaps), stuff that may be someones laser display (who knows) - what is important is always that it gets documented, and hopefully recorded, even if it does not make "sense".

P

PS - the Vogon Construction Fleet flies in a "V" formation

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this thread begs the question; how could we, as amateurs 'make sense' of some of the objects we see in the sky? (note I'm not referring to astronomical objects / events here)

I wonder if video cameras could be used?  B&W Baslers or something with higher definition perhaps?  

Something I'll look into.

michael

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Surely the 'B2 Stealth Bomber' is designed to be almost unobservable,at night, being painted matt black...

In the dark I doubt you could see one in the next field except by its shadow...

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If the military are advertising how many of a specific type of aircraft they have, (and are telling the truth) then they're doing it wrong.

The military will have many types of aircraft that are in no official books or referenced anywhere.

The U.S military have bases all over the world. They will be flying all sorts of exotic crafts all over the world, constantly.

The U.S has a yearly military budget that is mind numbing. Those are also official figures. The real budget is likely much, much higher.

If you say you saw a strange formation of aircraft over head that definitely weren't birds then I'd lean towards you being correct. It sounds like this thread is full of top military brass trying to convince you, you saw birds.

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Having seen a Facebook photo of a recent flight of a single B2 over Holbeach Lincs on Facebook (posted by Paul Pablo Jackson)  I confirm that this outline is EXACTLY what I witnessed several years ago. No, it wasn't a flight of birds, it was a precise triangular (not vee) formation of around 7-10 of these aircraft, and although at an altitude making them appear quite small, the outline was absolutely clear and unmistakeable with all the angles sharp and well defined on each occasion on which I witnessed them.

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On 14/10/2015 at 22:06, Stub Mandrel said:

Surely the 'B2 Stealth Bomber' is designed to be almost unobservable,at night, being painted matt black

Most B2 stealth operations take place from and to Whiteman AFB, back home in time  for the crews next meal?
Working under the cover of darkness  helps in their flight profile, but due to the size, noise and no matter what colour, you should still see these aircraft silhouetted against the dark sky, and military jets do not always display flashing bright lights,  like their civilian counterparts.
What you can't do is target them with radar, as  their signature returned to the radar is so low, almost non-existent, through their design shape and incorporating radar absorbent material. Even skeins of Geese can be radar detected!

Even F117's have a peculiar shape in the sky, again even in the dark, can be observed visually if your lucky enough to be in-sight.
Its very difficult trying to ascertain what someone may have seen , did see, and trying to come to some valid conclusion/closure is often difficult at best!

I have been fortunate enough to see many regular and  irregular overhead flights, some were genuine military flights in transit, some spec ops! many others avian, but the most intriguing ones have always ended up as either one of the GU-11's or B1-rd's?

Yes, I know its an old thread, and why not!

 

Edited by Charic
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