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What's outside our universe ?


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This kind of stuff gets my brain in a knot trying to figure it out...

I read an article the other night about black holes, and it mentioned how a black hole,

sucks stuff in from its accretion disk. The article said that this matter then disappeared

from the universe.

It didn't say where it went, so would this then mean that it has found a way out of the

known universe ?

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It goes to the positive infinity end of any time coordinate. It's a shortcut to the end of the world. That's why, to an outside observer, it seems to take forever for an object to cross the event horizon.

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That's why, to an outside observer, it seems to take forever for an object to cross the event horizon.

What though if you sent a spaceship in and you saw it entering the hole seemingly stuck, then you sent another one in on exactly the same course, what would you see then?

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There is no "beyond the universe" as the universe contains everything. It's also impossible to reach the edge of the univserse as your "visible universe" follows you around. Current best guesses as to the shape of the universe represent a multidimentional (4+) torus. Think of an ant on a balloon trying to find the edge of his universe although that metaphor quickly falls apart as the balloon is 2 dimentional and the real universe has 10, 11 or 26 dimensions (maybe)

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There is no "beyond the universe" as the universe contains everything.

...or so said a 2 dimensional person who lived on a peice of paper.

No, the universe would still contain the extra dimensions, the 2D person just wouldn't be aware of them. The same applies to 3D/ 4D beings.

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There is no "beyond the universe" as the universe contains everything.

...or so said a 2 dimensional person who lived on a peice of paper.

Higher dimentions are still within the same univserse. As Gaz rightly pointed out the very word "universe" means the one thing that contains everything. Even the person who lives on a 2 dimentional piece of paper may be aware of the 3rd dimension even though he can't go there, and this 3rd dimension is still part of his univserse

[edit] Gaz beat me to it!

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My understanding of Universe is everything we can see in our dimension. Perhaps I'm behind with the times here?

That would mean we define the universe and the universe changes as our perception of it changes??? We currently believe that there may be 11 dimensions in total, just because we can't currently 'see' them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

In your example the 2D paper beings would struggle to 'see' a fold in the paper, the fold would still represent extra dimension(s) in their universe though.

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What though if you sent a spaceship in and you saw it entering the hole seemingly stuck, then you sent another one in on exactly the same course, what would you see then?

To an outside observer, they both look like they are stuck at the event horizon. As time passes, the light from them gets more and more red-shifted (and they appear to be ever closer to the event-horizon which can be visualised as a sphere around the black hole). What you would see would be "ghosts" of everything that's ever crossed the event horizon. It's just as if they had gone to the ends of the universe.

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Isn't this a bit heavy for a Friday afternoon? POETS day and all that....

Anyways, I think the current idea is of a multiverse, which would basically be more than one of what people call universes. Try to think of it like several 'planes' of existance. Gordon's right about it possibly being a torus (doughnut) shape, but what's beyond that I reckon we couldn't even begin to imagine. We have only best guesses about the outer planets in our own solar system, so what chance outside of that?

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I guess the term "universe" could be defined as everthing that one is aware of. So each person, creature etc has it's own personal universe. For an ant that might be a few 10's of square metres around it's nest while for humans it's everything that the we have discovered in space and time .... so far.

Maybe thats the real meaning of the term "expanding universe" - expanding as our consiousness of what is out there expends with discovery, learning, theorising etc.

Meanwhile, in a small town in North Somerset, the lawn needs mowing .....

John

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I understand what you are saying GazOC but I still see the Universe as everything that we can see otherwise it becomes a catch all (A bit like some of the stupid points in my contract at work). No one has ever seen a higher dimension so it's all conjecture at the moment.

I think there are 'higher' dimensions but I would'nt classify them as being part of our universe.

Whiplash you are right it's a bit much for a Friday afternoon, I'm off home now for a doughnut...

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I understand what you are saying GazOC but I still see the Universe as everything that we can see otherwise it becomes a catch all (A bit like some of the stupid points in my contract at work). No one has ever seen a higher dimension so it's all conjecture at the moment.

Its conjecture but if and when we do discover them, they will be higher dimensions in our universe and won't have just sprung into existance when we discovered them. :)

Its the old 'if a tree falls and nobody hears, does it make a noise?' argument. Yes it does IMHO!! :D

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I'd say it was everything thats out there to be dicovered, whether we have done so yet or not :)

So it's everything there is, everywhere and everywhen, ever has been and ever will be. So there's no need to worry what lies beyond it then ... :D

John

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Phew! is that it then, Thank goodness, now I can concentrate on the dimensions of importance to me. The size of my run off shed what I am contemplating. (Said like Ernie Wise.)

:)

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The problem is we try to understand based on what we know and recognize. The trouble is things just get plain weird. Mathematics can pretty rapidly take you into concepts well beyond normal understanding - I gave up after trying to grasp how you can use unreal numbers like the square root of minus 4 in solving mathematical problems.

I'm interested in reading a bit about latest theories but they are well beyond my comprehension. It's like trying to explain to a blind lugworm living in the bottom of a pond in Chesterfield how it feels to stand on top of a mountain and take in the view.

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So it's everything there is, everywhere and everywhen, ever has been and ever will be. So there's no need to worry what lies beyond it then ... :)

Thats what I said!

Yes I think you did Gordon :D - it's just that I have the sort of mind that needs to repeat things to convince myself I've got it !!

Gave me something to think about while I mowed the lawn !.

John

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