The For Sale Section will Return in 2012

[Psychobilly]

great to hear its coming back. i want to put by dew heater controler and heater band up for sale, shouldnt have to wait long now then, good job admin

Remember that the original notice say in 2012 and not on 01/01/12...

The admins are working very hard behind the scenes on the new version of the forum at the moment which also meant a change in the forums "operating" software so there is a chance that it may not come back before the new forum software goes live...

I am sure it will all be worth the wait...

Peter...

[BlueAstra]

Very pleased to hear the For Sale section is returning. I have bought and sold a few items on the board, and always checked the profile/history of the sellar before purchasing. I've never had any problems. The problem of traders is a big one, and I appreciate it's a difficult one for the mods to solve. I think the idea of a two-tier section is good, but could cause more work for the mods unless the discriminator is simple, eg <£75 AND >75 posts. The idea of a 'Traders' section may also work, but would this cause difficulties with the sponsors or have legal implications? I'm sure the mods will come up with the best solution, and I look forward to its return.

[John]

Remember that the original notice say in 2012 and not on 01/01/12...

The admins are working very hard behind the scenes on the new version of the forum at the moment which also meant a change in the forums "operating" software so there is a chance that it may not come back before the new forum software goes live...

I am sure it will all be worth the wait...

Peter...

Peter makes some very good points here that should be noted.

Given the history of this section I'm sure the time will be taken to make sure whatever replaces it avoids the old pitfalls and can be administered effectively within the resources available.

It is just a small part of the upgrade work that is currently in hand and should not be hurried in.

[keithatrochdale]

Remember that the original notice say in 2012 and not on 01/01/12...

The admins are working very hard behind the scenes on the new version of the forum at the moment which also meant a change in the forums "operating" software so there is a chance that it may not come back before the new forum software goes live...

I am sure it will all be worth the wait...

Peter...

Hopefully not 31/12/12!!! lol

It would just be nice to be given an update occasionally, so we feel it is not forgotten.

[Psychobilly]

Hopefully not 31/12/12!!! lol

It would just be nice to be given an update occasionally, so we feel it is not forgotten.

It's also worth remembering that the admins doing the work also have day jobs and families and do all this work on a "voluntary" basis...and as such shouldn't be expected to be held to "deadlines"...

Peter...

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

It's also worth remembering that the admins doing the work also have day jobs and families and do all this work on a "voluntary" basis...and as such shouldn't be expected to be held to "deadlines"...

Peter...

Besides, a lot of this kind of work has all sorts of interlocking bits (quite apart from deciding how best to filter legitimate buyers). It's not a linear progress with clear milestones. Progress reports with technical detail might be quite meaningless to the uninitiated. Reports of the kind "we are still working on it" are not helpful either. We will just have to be patient.

[skywatcher1701]

Fantastic news, can't wait......

[Keiran]

I am really glad that it is returning, and what ever you decide, im sure it will suit us all

[maej]

There have been a lot of good comments on this and a lot of support and appreciation toward the admins here who clearly deserve it for all the time they must be spending on this and running this community.

I just want to echo some of the points raised on behalf of beginners. I found this forum a couple of years ago because an event rekindled my curiosity in the night sky after a disastrous experience as a child with a cheap dept store scope put me off. I spent months scouring the posts on here finding answers to my questions and raising more questions and finding more answers. The majority of my questions were answered by searching existing posts, so I was able to learn enough to decide what I wanted and what sort of scope to get with only a handful of meaningful posts of my own. So as a beginner I was ready to buy my first scope with only a few relevant and meaningful posts. As a beginner I am a sponge absorbing information, reading and learning lots but with no experience to be able to make meaningful comments of my own, and so my post count remains low.

My point is that if you want to sell equipment to beginners you need a medium that is accessible to beginners, and beginners are going to really struggle to make high post counts without resorting to asking questions that have already been answered several times before or by making spurious posts to inflate their count. Once the beginner gains experience and confidence they are able to post more often and more meaningful posts sharing their experience, asking more questions and advising new beginners.

As such I think your idea of 2 boards is a very good one. My personal opinion is that the more public one have something like 3 months and 50 posts to be able to sell and 1 month 10 posts to be able to buy. This gives a certain degree of confidence in the seller but allows any beginner to buy. The other board could have much higher demands to buy or sell, giving the confidence to advanced members selling that it is unlikely a trader will meet those requirements, and advanced buyers can be confident they are buying from other advanced members. I also think value limits impose an unnecessary limitation, if a seller meets the criteria for both boards it should be the sellers choice which audience to target and therefor where to post regardless of the value.

Any simple step to block traders using post counts will ultimately block beginners too.

I’m sorry for the late addition to this thread and I really hope I haven’t caused any bad feeling, offense or upset with my views. I understand the desire of advanced members to be confident they are selling to other advanced members, but please don’t forget the budding future advanced members in the process.

Thank you admins for all your hard work.

[Rich MedRev]

Maej makes some good and very vaild points, not everyone with low posts necessarily equates to being a beginner nor inexperienced. By using the search tab many questions can be answered without the need to keep repeating and at the same time this shouldnt deter members from asking questions whether the answers are already contained within SGL or not.

For my part I shall welcome whatever variant of the for sale section returns.

Total transparency should prevail and traders should be easily spotted and taken care of.

[carldr]

I agree with Maej too, he makes good points.

As a more specific example, I've been a member for 14 months, but only have 87 posts, so would I fall in the "beginner camp" or the "active member camp"? It's not obvious from just those two numbers.

I don't think the number of posts means anything, I bet I could make 100 posts in a day by adding "Great picture" or "Me too!" to existing threads. I don't think anyone wants to see hundreds of such posts just so those users reach or maintain some minimum level of activity.

Sorry there's no real suggestions from me, but perhaps some food for thought.

[dark knight]

Great news, thanks Admin.

[Bulkins]

Lets be honest, it will be impossible to completely eradicate the 'trader' issue. They are driven by the profit motive and while I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, it would be naive to expect them to play 'fair' by, for example, declaring themseves.

My own view is that the only way to ensure that you don't end up being hacked off when you find out that the buyer was a trader (and not the genuine astronomer you thought) is to forget the altruism and sell on ebay or some other commercial auction site - that way it is more likely (but not guaranteed) to go to an astronomer.

However, I appreciate that many would still prefer to pass on items at bargain prices to genuine astronomers, thereby making a real contribution to the propagation of the hobby.

With that in mind I think providing selling / buying guidelines will be key. For example:

1. The For Sale section is intended to facilitate transactions between astronomy enthusiasts rather than be a source of cheap items for traders. However, the onus is on individual members to satisfy themeselves that items come from or go to a 'good home'. It is simpy impractical to burden volunteer moderators / administrators with the monitoring and policing of a For Sale section that is not even part of the core activities of the site. Should the For Sale section result in an unreasonable burden being placed on those volunteers we reserve the right to close the facility. The likelihood of this happening can be minimised by following the For Sale guidelines.
   
2. Buyers must accept that they will be identified via their user name on conclusion of the sale.
   
3. There is absolutely no obligation (or convention) to sell to the first person who notes an interest in an item or items.
   
4. Sellers should set a deadline for notes of interest / PMs making offers, and after the deadline has passed they should assess, via the search facility, the post history of the potential buyers before deciding who they would prefer to sell to. This assessment may also involve seeking guidance from site moderators on potential buyers or checking any 'warning' lists that may be introduced to the site at the discretion of the moderators.
   
5. Buyers may similarly check post history, consult with moderators or check warning lists before making an offer for an item.
   
6. On completion of the sale the seller must make a final post on the for sale thread which simply states 'item sold - bought by user-name'. This will help make the search process for future transactions more informed.
   
7. Sellers are not obliged to justify why they decide to transact with a particular buyer and can deal with any such requests from disgruntled would-be buyers by reference to the guidelines - if they fail to accept this the matter can be referred to moderators.
   
8. Issues with transactions must not be aired in public but may be raised with moderators. Moderators will use their discretion when deciding what to do with such information but in most cases are likely to refer the complainant to the For Sale guidelines (supposing they have not been followed).
   
9. The administrators / moderators accept no responsibility (legal or otherwise) for any dissatisfaction on the part of sellers or buyers. The For Sale section is used entirely at the risk of those involved in the transaction who should have the reasonable expectation that not all transactions go smoothly and the onus is on themselves to minimise the risk of any dissatisfaction.
   
10. The guidelines will be updated in line with experience. Consequently, they should be consulted by sellers / buyers prior to every transaction.
    

I'm not saying this is perfect or exhaustive or anything other than an example, but I do feel that guidelines / recommendations such as these, if followed, will be a far more effective way of achieving satisfactory sales than by attempting to implement an overly prescriptive rules based system. I believe a guidance based system has the added benefit of distributing the effort across all of the membership and minimises the burden on moderators.

[old_eyes]

Dear Admins,

Thank you for thinking so long and hard about how to make the For Sale section work (and thank you to all the fellow SGLers who have contributed ideas and suggestions).

I don't think it will ever be possible to eliminate 'the curse of the trader', but it can be managed in some of the ways that have been suggested.

What is important in my view is that we find some way forward. After my initial purchase of a new packaged and ready to roll scope from FLO, Almost all my kit has been acquired second-hand through the For Sale section; mounts, scopes, eyepieces, filters, cameras - the lot. Not only has this allowed me to go further and faster than my budget would allow if I was restricted to new stuff, but I have received invaluable advice from sellers on how to use the kit and its particular foibles. In one case I missed out on a purchase only to have the seller point me to an identical item available second hand from a dealer.

I value that sense of connection, and when my time comes to sell on some of my gear, assuming I can ever overcome the hoarding gene, I hope I will be able to offer as much service to whoever buys from me.

I am sure that you will find an equitable solution, and I look forward to anxiously scanning the lists again for the bits for whatever deranged scheme I currently have in mind!

old_eyes

[nightfisher]

I will be very pleased to see this section return,

one thought i have regarding traders is to have the proper threat of a lifetime ban if found using sgl for trade purpose and not declaring this, to expand- its fair to say a good amount of members use other web based platforms to buy and sell equipment when upgrading, so if some thing sells on here, then a few days later appears on ebay or such at profit, that might point to a rouge trader.

On the fishing forum i moderate on we have a strict NO selling at all, for years members have been pleading for a sale section, and the admin an mods will not relent, i can see why its going to be hard to make this work, but im sure it will

[Rols]

Will we be getting some kind of fit for purpose and acceptable description of quality?

i see the SADFART rules on a major money saving site and thought it fair to ask if the admins would also be able to monitor quality of product. just before the for sale section was closed i paid way over the odds for something that was not fit for use, had to spend more money getting it working. if the site is having a sale section will it also be holding members liable for false statements?

Satisfactory Quality

As

Described

Fit for the purpose

And last a

Reasonable length of

Time

[Skybrowser]

Common sense prevails. On the 50 post thing - one thing I can see is the sheer number of "welcome to SGL" notes on new members introductions. A great many of the comments look a bit short, sharp and quite impersonal. Putting that kind of message in to any newby's intro of themselves easily gets most people to 50 posts.

If you ever want to put that kind of restriction in again, suggest you discount those comments from the welcome section.

[Kai]

Will we be getting some kind of fit for purpose and acceptable description of quality?

i see the SADFART rules on a major money saving site and thought it fair to ask if the admins would also be able to monitor quality of product. just before the for sale section was closed i paid way over the odds for something that was not fit for use, had to spend more money getting it working. if the site is having a sale section will it also be holding members liable for false statements?

Satisfactory Quality

As

Described

Fit for the purpose

And last a

Reasonable length of

Time

I would say those rules are more aimed at buying "new" from a retailer , to apply those to a second hand sale would be very hard if not impossible to administer.

Who would do the monitoring of the quality ? , would this be before the sale commenced ? and how would it be done ?

One of the reasons that the section was closed was the amount of time that the Admin / Mod team had to spend there and to be 100% honest i would rather not have a section at all if it meant that the majority of my time on SGL was spent sorting out disputes between members.

[Hemsy]

Great news that the FSS will return. Whatever the terms are, lets deal with it and be thankful that such a great forum exists with this added extra. Cheers Ed

[Johnboy]

one thing I can see is the sheer number of "welcome to SGL" notes on new members introductions.

Good point. I have also noticed that when a member asks a question, some other members reply with, 'I can't help but I'm sure somebody who can will be along soon'. It's quite friendly but a complete waste of time.

[John]

In the past we did pick up on where "Post harvesting" was going on and sometimes post counts have been reduced accordingly. As Kai points out though, this took time and effort to monitor and, frankly, the Mods / Admins time would be much better (and more enjoyably) spent in other ways on the forum.

[Ant]

Will we be getting some kind of fit for purpose and acceptable description of quality?

i see the SADFART rules on a major money saving site and thought it fair to ask if the admins would also be able to monitor quality of product. just before the for sale section was closed i paid way over the odds for something that was not fit for use, had to spend more money getting it working. if the site is having a sale section will it also be holding members liable for false statements?

Satisfactory Quality

As

Described

Fit for the purpose

And last a

Reasonable length of

Time

Thanks for posting that. I've had a downer few days and that cheered me up. It's nice to see that we all have a sense of humour about the buy/sell section

Cheers

Ant

[Rols]

I would say those rules are more aimed at buying "new" from a retailer , to apply those to a second hand sale would be very hard if not impossible to administer.

Who would do the monitoring of the quality ? , would this be before the sale commenced ? and how would it be done ?

One of the reasons that the section was closed was the amount of time that the Admin / Mod team had to spend there and to be 100% honest i would rather not have a section at all if it meant that the majority of my time on SGL was spent sorting out disputes between members.

The monitoring has already happened, the person that listed it would have to follow the rules for listing an item in the for sale section,if the rules are set right anyone listing an item suggesting it is fit for use is selling a fully functional and fit for purpose item,

good quality images or the item is removed.

fair and true description of the items age and working condition. original purchase value and links to manufacturers write up, so as to inform the buyers expectations before purchase.

and i'm sure i could think of more.

This is not hard work for anyone wanting to sell an item worth good money, and should be key to anyone wanting to sell anything, if the buyer is informed and armed with good images of the quality then in itself this should not add pressure to the admin but make it simple to weed out rouges.

If when it arrived to the new owner it was not in the condition described or not as described then the rules would have to protect the buyer and with an imediate return of the item should come a refund, the return of an item would have to be at the buyers expense as it was their risk to buy a 2nd hand item in the first place, anyone not wanting to play ball is removed from the for sale section permanently. this rule will not effect honest members and only prove to clean up/keep clean the for sale section, seller ratings would be another option to tag on.

surely with a for sale section within SGL comes the responsibility of having to monitor it and make it work fairly.

IMO Rules are rules if you don't like the rules don't buy or sell on the site.

i did not end up in a dispute with the person i dealt with, i just lowered my expectations of descriptions of product, and without wanting to tar anyone else with a brush that did'nt suit, i will never buy that i cant see before parting with my money, unless they are a 'trader'. i would prefer to deal with someone accountable than to lose another GBP 300.00 of my money on something someone suggests is in good condition and fit for use.

if people don't like the suggestion of being accountable for the sale of their item then should they be selling it on SGL???

I'm not trying to rub peoples backs up, i'm just putting my thoughts across, i hope they help provoke thought and ideas, and keep the for sale section clean and friendly. i understand why SGL is not happy with traders but i'm not so fussed about that, i just want to know that if i do buy something on SGL i'm actualy getting something worth buying, or i may as well take the protection of fleebay, and wait for SGL members to list it their.

I'm sure you guys will do what works.

Again, please don't pull the trigger.

[MorningMajor]

I've bought a fair bit from the For Sale board - the biggest being my 12" Dob so would love to see it return - if manageable for the mods, I think a kind of "flea bay" reputation/buying/selling history would be a good idea

[Ant]

One of the main reasons of pulling the for sale board in the first place was the amount of time that we had to spend sorting it out.

Whatever form the buy/sell section return in, SGL admin will not be responsible for ANY of the trades, SGL admin will not monitor the accuracy of descriptions of items offered for sale.

It also goes against my better judgement to have any form buy/sell feedback system like ebay. The ebay system is completely flawed anyway (with sellers refusing to give feedback until they have received POSITIVE feedback).

Having an SGL feedback system also gives someone with good feedback the sense of SGL approved legitimacy - which I am not happy about. The SGL Admin/Mod team will also not be involved in any form of dispute resolution.

So to answer some of your earlier questions, which I didn't think were serious.

1. surely with a for sale section within SGL comes the responsibility of having to monitor it and make it work fairly.

No I do not agree with that - SGL is not and will never be responsible for trades posted in the for sale section.

2. if the site is having a sale section will it also be holding members liable for false statements?

Again No, SGL will not read or approve any posts in the for sales section. It is just not practical for the SGL admin team to vet every post and make sure that it is accurate - I cannot see a way that we could do that without physically inspecting every item.

I do agree that it is vital for an item to sell to include an accurate description with matching pictures. As far as I am concerned I wouldn't dream of buying anything expensive over the SGL for sale boards or ebay etc without having good pictures and a decent description.

Excuse the bluntness of this, but anyone who does deserves what they get.

The person selling will soon realise that the reason his/her item isn't selling is because of the vague description / lack of images.

If after the section returns we are unable to find a way of making the For Sale section work with minimal admin/Moderator involvement it'll soon be removed again.

Keep the post coming as there are some interesting suggestions and idea's raised which we may well be used

Cheers

ant