Fake eyepieces?

[spaceboy]

The build quality seems to be great, but to be honest I could't really see more detail of Jupiter compared to the 10mm that I got with my telescope, it was just a bit more magnified. Perhaps it's because my scope needs collimating?

You ideally need a bigger scope to bring out better resolution / detail on planets. Magnification will increase the image scale but you are limited to the amount of detail by the size of your mirrors.

[Domino]

I am sure that Sky's the Limit will match/beat that price. Alan will alway listen if you give him the chance.

[johncbradley1]

Alan is the guy that runs skies the limit

In your previous thread about choosing a planetary ep I put a link on there for you to have a look before buying that ep off eBay

As I stated then he even does a try before you buy

Jake

Oh, I miss read that comment Have you ever bought anything from there? My TMB EP that I got from eBay is identical to the one on skies the limit. Even the box is the same, I think they all must come from one place.

[jnc71106]

Can't say I have ever bought from Alan but I've spoken to him a couple of times very helpful and a really nice guy

A lot of people on here have used that site and they all get a very very good service by all accounts.

Alan is one of the good guys Give him a ring he will give you good advice

Jake

[spaceboy]

I'd vouch for Alan. One of the most helpful guys you will come across.

[blinky1983]

I looks exactly like mine, But I have the 6mm and hate it. The only thing I find it good for is the Moon. Anything else is just awful. I got mine from Skies the limit at £36 to be honest the supplied 10mm is much better.. Might be a dud I got but made me not want any more lol

[Capricorn]

Have some TMB II's and BST's, and others.

The BST's out perform the TMB's.

Problem is that the BST's stop at 5mm and I wanted something smaller. Little scope and simply wanted to try my luck.

Spoke to Alan when I bought the TMB's and he "warned" me about the short focal length. Explained that I knew the risk but wanted to give them a go. No regrets at getting them and good of Alan to say, many wouldn't.

TMB's are OK but when matched against the BST's there is no real contest. Would really like a BST in 4mm or 3,5mm.

Have some Antares in less then 5mm, and above, and pretty good but again spoilt by the BST's.

Have the full set of BST's and they are going nowhere.

[John]

Here is a link to another interesting SGL thread on these eyepieces, their variants and their relative performance, a little while ago:

http://stargazerslounge.com/discussions-scopes-whole-setups/111156-tmb-planetaries-clones.html

[great_bear]

I have the 6mm and hate it. The only thing I find it good for is the Moon. Anything else is just awful.

The 6mm (sold in isolation to the rest of the range, by people such as Astronomica in the UK) is referred to as the "Garage Sale Version" - it was an early test run that didn't meet the TMB quality standards as mentioned in Tom Trussock's cloudynights review.

I remember an official communication from TMB/Burgess saying that they recognised the problem, but they had "decided" to merely sell the batch off cheaply. It sounds - to me - more likely that they were not allowed to reject the batch and probably wanted to recoup some cash. A bit shorted-sighted I would have thought, because the dodgy first 6mm release along with the retaining ring reflection problems of the dodgy first 9mm release as well, badly soured the initial launch of this eyepiece. The fact that such stock still seems to be floating around can make choosing an "official" TMB Planetary a bit of a hit-and-miss affair.

There's an interesting review by Chris Lord here <click>

[Guest]

Good evening!

I saw the images shown in this thread as an example of "real" TMB Planetary Type II eyepieces. But I think the pictures just show a (cosmetically) well made mockup of the TMB Planetary eyepieces. The "real ones" - at least I think so!! - look like this: (picture from a french seller)

These sell for remarkably higher prices in Europe than the other "TMB"-eyepieces shown in this thread . Astronomics (US) also sells this type (just count the number of silver rings on these TMBs and the others posted previously)...

Did I get something wrong, or do really mockups exist that use the TMB-logo?

Regards, Raphael

[cs1cjc]

Sadly these eyepieces appear to be fakes even though they are widely available. They seem to be fakes rather than clones because they have the name TMB Optical on them. They are not the same as those authorised by the Estate of Thomas Back and as sold by Astronomics. See for example:

TMB 7mm long eye relief 1.25" Planetary II Eyepiece

Note that the barrel has an undercut instead of a shoulder and mm is in lower case.

It is particularly annoying for me because I have four. The performance of fakes is always open to question and none of my previous comments about Planetaries refers to the genuine article. I think that we as a community should be ensuring that there is no market for fakes.

[CanesVenatici]

I am not sure that the term 'fake' is really appropriate here. Sure, some of these eyepieces may be being traded under the TMB name without royalties been paid for doing so, but the eyepieces themselves my well be made in the same factory to the same specifications and designs - perhaps with very minor differences - as the 'genuine' article.

DNA18 jokingly said:

Just seen where you can get them for around £19 + vat each as unbranded

Then stick a TMB sticker on them and ............. cher ching

In effect this is what happens with many 'branded' articles, only it is the brand owner who rakes in the cash! It is all a part of the risks companies run by seeking to maximise their profits by outsourcing to places where they have little control!

[CanesVenatici]

Sadly these eyepieces appear to be fakes even though they are widely available. They seem to be fakes rather than clones because they have the name TMB Optical on them. They are not the same as those authorised by the Estate of Thomas Back and as sold by Astronomics. See for example:

TMB 7mm long eye relief 1.25" Planetary II Eyepiece

From that page:

A light coating of lubricant has been applied to the threads of the twist-up eyecup. If any lubricant is visible on the inner eyepiece body when the eyecup is in the extended position, remove the excess lubricant with a clean wipe, such as a tissue. Operate the twist-up eyecup several times, cleaning the body as necessary until no more lubricant is visible on the eyepiece body when the twist-up eyecup is fully extended.

Chinese QC standards still need some working on it seems.

[Ags]

Do you trust the honesty and integrity of a manufacturer who puts somebody else's mark on the goods?

[Gina]

When buying this sort of thing you want a good product. Best to buy from a reputable dealer you can trust. I recommend FLO as being very reliable, helpful and trustworthy as well as sponsoring these forums. Any queries and an email receives a very quick reply

[CanesVenatici]

Do you trust the honesty and integrity of a manufacturer who puts somebody else's mark on the goods?

But if manufacturers didn't do this, then most of the brand managers would have nothing to sell!

I also bet that Mr. Newton is rolling in his grave thinking of all the scopes of his design that have been made without any royalties going to his descendents.

Seriously though. I can see the issues related to copyright design and so on, but when companies outsource the production of their brands in search of bigger profits, without a thought as to the wider implications of what they are doing, why should the customer shed a tear when the manufacturers start putting out near-identical goods through 'alternative' channels, usually at a much cheaper price for the same quality?

Often, the brand owners themselves hardly shout about the source of their goods and the fact that a large proportion of the asking price is simply paying for the brand name and its associated marketing. Even 'Made in' labels are often pretty meaningless with, in many cases, the country of origin simply being the place where the 'greatest value was added'. Hence the situation where a product almost wholly manufactured in country 'X' for peanuts can be labelled as being 'Made in country Y' because the process of final assembly, packing the goods and adding a 'prestigious' label has suddenly made those items 'worth' many times the factory gate price.

[Ags]

There's a difference between a design and a brand. The brand says who made the item and gives an indication of quality. If something is not made by TMB but bears the TMB mark, then TMB's rep is being misused. I own TMB clones, but they do not falsely claim to have been made by TMB or to have passed TMB QC.

[CanesVenatici]

There's a difference between a design and a brand. The brand says who made the item and gives an indication of quality. If something is not made by TMB but bears the TMB mark, then TMB's rep is being misused. I own TMB clones, but they do not falsely claim to have been made by TMB or to have passed TMB QC.

I would bet a lot on the suggestion that TMB actually makes nothing at all itself, and that all 'genuine' TMB eyepieces are made somwhere in China, probably right alongside those that are sold as 'TMB clones'.

Even Televue has most of its eyepieces made in Taiwan, with the rest made in Japan. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if the people who make them also make other brands.

[johninderby]

Even though many of the Televue eyepieces are manufactured by other companies they are manufactured in dedicated facilities that don't make anything else but Televue and are under the constant supervision of a Televue employee. They're then sent back to the US for QC and testing.

The only exception is the 8-24 zoom that is bought in, but they still put it through their QC and testing.

John

[CanesVenatici]

Even though many of the Televue eyepieces are manufactured by other companies they are manufactured in dedicated facilities that don't make anything else but Televue and are under the constant supervision of a Televue employee. They're then sent back to the US for QC and testing.

The only exception is the 8-24 zoom that is bought in, but they still put it through their QC and testing.

John

Interesting. Which companies are involved in making Televue branded products, and what other brands do they produce?

When you speak of 'dedicated facilities', does this refer to, say the people who assemble them, or is every machine used - from the CNC machines that turn the bodies to the machines that grind the lenses - only used for Televue products?

[johninderby]

Televue won't say who is making them and they don't give out a lot of detail. They do say that it is in dedicated areas (facilities?) of the companies involved in the countries where they're produced and the people who make the parts only work on Televue.

John

[CanesVenatici]

Their reticence is probably understandable given that they wouldn't want to say anything that might undermine the perceived value of their products, and so their doubtlessly healthy profit margins. (Especially given the low cost of skilled labour in Taiwan, at around $7000 / £4,500 a year).

It also quite possibly means that most 'Televue' branded eyepieces are actually made by Guan Sheng Optical employees! It does seem that Vixen in Japan have also made some stuff for Televue in the past, so they may still be the source of those 'Televue' eyepieces marked as being made in Japan.

From what I have been reading, the only Televue eyepieces ever made in the USA were the original 1979 'Nagler' prototypes. And to think, to many, especially over on the Cloudynights forum, Televue is an all-American product! (Even on Cloudynights I have seen a couple of heretics question why the price should be so high for a product made in Taiwan. The primary answer is, of course, the maximisation of profit. However, from what I have read most posters over there seem to see this as being a wholly good thing, praising 'Al' for being such a canny businessman. How very American. ).

It would also be interesting to learn just how many processes are completed in 'dedicated facilities'. I doubt that Televue is going to let on though.

[johninderby]

I think the key to Televue's success has been in the QC on every single eyepiece. They make sure it meets their standards before shipping.

John

[CanesVenatici]

I think the key to Televue's success has been in the QC on every single eyepiece. They make sure it meets their standards before shipping.

John

Well, that and following the two golden rules of the American business model: screw down your costs wherever possible and charge not a dime less than the market will bear!

[Ewok]

The thing is, I've never tried any other EP other than ones that my scope come with, so I won't know if it's going to be worth the £37 I paid for it :/

Hi John,

It sounds to me that you have pretty much convinced yourself that it's dodgy.

If I were you I WOULD return it just for peace of mind, there are too many questions to be answered with it, £37 is a lot of money really.

Better safe than sorry IMHO.