My failure (again!)

[Crunchard]

Ok ... I must be doing something seriously wrong!

Here is last nights failed list of Messiers...

M27 - Nope

M31 - Nope

M101 - Nope

M81/M81 - Nope

The only thing I could see was M45 ... which doesn't really count in my eyes.

Using the 32mm Panaview to scroll around, would expect to see some sort of fuzzy area but nothing ...

Second night of frustrating failure.

Any suggestions?

[MikeP]

Keep trying, the sense of achievement will be greater when you start to find your way round. Perhaps going to a local society's viewing session will let you see it and then you'll know what you are looking for.

For some reason that I've never understood, when I started it took me several sessions before I found M31, since then I can't "not find it" - scope, binos and naked eye (on a clear dark night). Here's a link to a star hopping web page that may help - http://earthsky.org/tonight/star-hop-from-great-square-of-pegasus-to-andromeda-galaxy

It really is nothing more than a small smudge. Even with a 12" I've never seen more than that - the area outside the core is huge but I can't see it.

Good luck.

Mike

[SlipperySquid]

Are you using GOTO? If not, it's hard to find objects in the sky when starting out. I know it was for me anyway but keep trying it will fall into place eventually.

Stick to one target no matter how frustrating! You want to see M31....THEN KEEP LOOKING FOR IT...Once found you will remember the general area where you spotted last time, write down how you found it.

Choose the a bright star near the object you want and slowly track from that star in the direction that you planetarium software says.

An easier object that I found popped out is M13 ,M27 also M42. hard targets for me where M101 (very faint) M81 (Took ages to find though when I did it made me giggle) M51 another one that was hard to get. Again once you train your eye to see without out actually seeing (Yes grass hopper you will learn the ways) you are sort of scanning though your eyepiece then your brain will tell you that you have passed something that you didn't actually register seeing and boom faint fuzzies ahoy!.

Choosing the bright star gives you a reference point to work from that you can always return to after you have done a search...so you know the object is so far from star "A" move from said star say to the left always move further than you think the object is...it's surprising but I always never used to search far enough away from my initial reference point. If no object found return to star move slightly up or down and go again. It is hard but stick at it mate it'll all fall into place in the end and make sure you have spent at least 20-30mins in the dark so your eye's get dark adapted.

Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but that's how I did things some nights I spent hours not finding what I wanted but it did feel great when I actually landed the eyepiece on something I was looking for!

Matt.

[cotterless45]

I couldn't find anything for ages , using a finder scope and 32mm eyepiece.

The best thing that I ever bought is the Telrad finder and downloaded and printed off the Telrad charts from the net. The finder gives 4,2 and 1/2 degree circles.

You'll need 20 minutes to get your eyes dark adapted, no moon and a little patience.

The rewards of finding and seeing are well worth the effort, good hunting!

[andrew63]

One thing I find useful is to use a pair of binoculars to scan the general area as it will give you a much wider field - when you see m31 in those it will be easier to hone in with the telescope as you will be in the general area.

One thing to remember is that DSO and general much dimmer that you will see from photographs. But keep trying as you get a great sense of achievement when you do find them!

andrew

[Crunchard]

Thanks for all the comments.

I've been following the star charts that I have, and have been using the sweep back and forth approach. I was at this for nearly 2 hours in all with a good 25-30 minutes on each target.

Binoculars I find even more frustrating ... I couldn't hold a pair steady for a million quid!

No goto, but tracking (when I find the damn things!)

Would love a telrad ... rare nowadays and I fear unlikely to appear again.

[swamp thing]

Would love a telrad ... rare nowadays and I fear unlikely to appear again.

You can still buy Telrads nearly any Astro shop will have em.

Regards Steve

[SlipperySquid]

Telrad or rigel quick finder though I do find the reticle a lot clearer on the telrad but the telrad is massive! Just keep trying mate. Try to learn how to use the finderscope with one eye while looking at the sky with the other that also helps a lot.

Matt

[assasincz]

When finding an object, location of which I do not know right away, I find star hopping to be the easiest way. I display the appropriate area in Stellarium, then I star hop in with binos for initial orientation and then repeat the same procedure using the RA finder. It actually rewarding because I can enjoy the patch of sky I hop around too.

When looking for the object in fainter part of the sky where is tough to orientate onself, I often find setting circles on my EQ2 surprisingly helpful, but they are only accurate enough to get a raw location. Then I need to fiddle with R/A and Dec a bit to find the object, assuming I know the appearance and angular size of it.

Hope this will come in handy.

[Moonshane]

+1 for Telrads. just the business although any red dot finder will also work reasonably well. I have just bought a Baader Skysurfer 3 and it's OK actually.

[perrin6]

Dare I suggest learning how to 'star-hop' ? I stopped sweeping for each object because success was slow in coming, so I now star-hop to the (almost) exact location. This means I can find even very faint objects because I know where each should be located. Star-hopping takes time to get the hang of and requires good astro software and a nearby computer for all but the brightest objects.

I start with finding the naked eye star which is nearest the object and move to the next star/mini star pattern, then the next until I find the exact location of the object. You need to memorize the width in minutes of arc of each eyepiece, estimate angles, know where north is in the eyepiece, know what the brightness is of each 'stepping stone' star and how bright it will look in the eyepiece. (Sorry - I think I'm making it sound more complicated than it is !).

[perrin6]

I never found a telrad did the job as I couldn't see stars fainter than mag 3 or thereabouts, plus my lowestpower only has 0.75 degree field, however most people on here seem to like'em.

[Moonshane]

I should say that I live in light pollution myself and use the Telrad in conjunction with my RACI 9x50mm finder and then widest eyepiece (unless I can place the scope accurately with the Telrad. e.g. I can put a 200x eyepiece in and find a naked eye planet in the eyepiece with just the Telrad).

For fainter stuff I use my widest eyepiece after the finders.

[Andrew]

Some of those targets that you've picked are not the easiest to find (e.g. M81, M101, even M27 is small).

Star hopping is the way to go, maybe starting with objects that are as close as possible to something you can see in your finder. M103 is a cluster with a very distinct triangular shape that is very close to one of the brighter stars in Cassiopeia so often at a good height to view. If you haven't seen it yet the double cluster is pretty near to there and if your sky is dark enough you can see its glow without a finder.

I usually find M31 by pointing my scope at Mirach (one of the brighter stars in Andromeda). Looking directly up (at 90 degrees to the line of stars that make up Andomeda) is another bright star (mu Andromedae). M31 is roughly the same distance again along the line from Mirach to mu. If you have an ep that gives a wide fov and project along that line you should find M31 in your scope (or that's the theory!)

Good luck

[theodoros1978]

Using myself a 250PX in ther beggining was a bit confusing, but after buying a telrad and printing map was able to spot lots of Messier objects. Keep on looking for light grey smudges!

[Crunchard]

Dare I suggest learning how to 'star-hop' ? I stopped sweeping for each object because success was slow in coming, so I now star-hop to the (almost) exact location.

I do star-hop to the rough location, then I sweep. It's not like I am simply panning the scope across the sky and hoping for the best!

To find M31, I tried to draw a line from Mirach to Mu Andromedea and onward. Is that the wrong technique?

[Crunchard]

You can still buy Telrads nearly any Astro shop will have em.

Regards Steve

They are sold out at all the places I have tried, most are on back-order. However, speaking to a shop owner the other day he reckons they won't be back in for some time ... if ever!

If you find one in stock, then let me know please.

[Crunchard]

find M31 by pointing my scope at Mirach (one of the brighter stars in Andromeda). Looking directly up (at 90 degrees to the line of stars that make up Andomeda) is another bright star (mu Andromedae). M31 is roughly the same distance again along the line from Mirach to mu. If you have an ep that gives a wide fov and project along that line you should find M31 in your scope (or that's the theory!)

Good luck

Thanks, but that is what I have been trying to do ... my wide FoV EP is a 32mm Panaview so 70.

I am getting concerned that my general area is simply too light polluted, if that is the case then the For Sale section will be my next stop ...

[Stu]

Hi Crunchard. If you haven't done already, why not try m13? It's quite well positioned at the moment and is relatively easy to find in Hercules. Will give you a chance to check your finder is aligned.

M57 is also worth a go because it is easier to locate in lyra to get your scope positioned but does need higher power to spot sometimes.

As said by others, the galaxies you are trying to find can be tricky if your skies aren't that dark.

Keep trying, there is plenty to see up there, I rarely look at galaxies unless at a really dark site because they are too diffuse to see much with my scopes.

Lots of nice transits coming up on jupiter this month

Good luck.

Stu

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

[perrin6]

To find M31, I tried to draw a line from Mirach to Mu Andromedea and onward. Is that the wrong technique?

A - learn the width of your finders field in degrees

B - On your star map find Mirach, mu & nu Andromeda ( The line of 3 bright stars that's next to M31

C - Measure the size of your finders field of view with your thumb and forefinger (probably about 5-6 degrees on your 250px)

D - place your thumb & forefinger on the star map over the 3 stars, giving you an idea of what they will look like in the finder

E - find the 3 stars in your finder then move the whole scope so that the M31's position is at the centre of your finders view.

F - M31 should now appear in your low power eyepiece (if the finder is aligned with the scope)

(also helps if you learn the width of your lowest eyepieces field in degrees)

[todd8137]

hi there do not give up ,its hard to see some things i did see all but m31 last night m81,82 was bright for a change last night whats you light pol like ?.m101 is not easy at the best of times keep looking theres still no rush they will be there once you tune in to them

[Moonshane]

I live about 9 miles from Manchester and 4 miles from Stockport in the worst belt of light pollution and I can see M31 in my 9x50 finder and my 7x36 bins. I doubt that light pollution where you are will be worse so you should be able to see it if in the right spot.

[Crunchard]

Thanks all for the continuing advice - it'll be worth when I finally do spot one of those targets!

Moonshane - good to know re the light pollution at least I can probably stop blaming that

Stu - the NW tends to be a bit of a washout until quite late - the last of those sun rays just give it a pale blue colour so nothing is really visible but by then M13 is quite low

Perrin - I'm going to make myself a ring to use on my star charts - just got to remember that things are back to front, upside down, etc. Oh for an erected finder...

Cheers, Jeff

[Moonshane]

no worries Jeff

you'll find some eventually. once you get the 'look' of things into your mind you'll spot non stellar objects more frequently.

the double cluster is well placed currently look halfway between the left side of Cassiopeia and the top of Perseus and you'll see it in your finder easily. it will be nice in your 10" with the 32mm eyepiece but better with a bit more power once located like many subjects.

[Crunchard]

Faint Fuzzy Alert ... Faint Fuzzy Alert

Binoculars out last night ... followed line from Mirach up from Mu Andromedae ... and hang on ... what is that fuzziness ... wait ... no it can't be ... yep it was ... M31

Exactly where I had been looking all along - no idea why I had failed to see it previously! Now I just need to get some more power onto it

So cheers for all the advice