Robindonne

I hope im not the only with these questions and therefore this thread might be helpful for more rookies😬

30 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

camera in 2X2 binning

my phrase started with nebulaS.  Its edited, sorry.  
Ok.  Could that be done with a dslr? Its like atik a cmos.  Or is binning just like setting a lower resolution on your camera? Then a dslr sure can do that job?   The 60d has a pixelsize of 4,3   Does 2x2 binning mean pixelsize change from 4,3 to 8,6 um?

If so then the 60d for example would be a perfect choise, concerning pixel size, for occasionally use with small refractors and mainly use with the c8 when set to 2x2 binning?

Or go for a 6d with an “unfilled” full frame sensor with 6,5 um pixelsize and never use the 2x2 binning?

Will, like my initial question (unused glow affected parts of the image when using a full frame), i benefit from choosing a larger sensor and remove most outer part of the final image? Or will the overall quality of the image go down when my scope cant deliver enough light for the full frame? Or does it just deliver enough light on a part of the sensor and the other part wont receive any light? So that possible glow will not affect the main object.

ive bookmarked the 12dstring calculator  thx

So for 800 mm (quattro 8”)- 1280 mm (c8) focal length, the best option is 7 um?

Found this.  It might answer some of my questions

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Firstly is glow problematic for the outer 33% of the chip? Plenty of people use full frame sensors, including uncooled ones, with good results. The real problem is almost the inverse: relatively few telescopes will fully illuminate a full frame sensor. Flat fielding is essential to correct the vignetting produced by many of those which will. My own Tak FSQ106N covers full frame but with a 22% drop off in brightness from centre to corners. Flats correct it.

Secondly the question of pixel size should only be considered in terms of the sampling rate it will give you in a particular telescope. It will be difficult to turn details captured below about 0.9 arcseconds per pixel into real details in the final image. Choose the pixel size which suits your intentions. They should be as large as possible consistent with your intentions because over-sampling costs time and brings no benefit. Many people settle for 2 arcsecs per pixel as a sweet spot. In short pixel size matters, for sure, but matters only in connection with focal length.

Olly

Oke. Sounds very usefull.  I do have zero photography background due to just not being interested in it.  Astrophotography though interests me because of the beautiful and otherwise unseen objects out there.  
 

Most of the “fill in” parts in the formula to determine what camera-specs will work for me cant be filled in by me at the moment.  

I started with buying a 8” quattro with zero accessoires Then a heq5 mount for it.  When searching a used sct I found a retired seller who sold me his ap set.  C8 on an eq5pro with a guidescope and mono camera, an asi178, polemaster etc.  Lots of good stuff i think but i sold the cameras and now need to find out what to look for.  To get a proofed working setup i could easily buy all the sold items to return to that setup.  Or look for identical specs cameras.  But without soaking up all the info with questioning the issues im facing right now.  

If i use my c8, it came incl focalreducer, and planning to do ap mostly on nebulae and galaxys, is it then important to select a cam based on these plans?  You mentioned focal length is related to pixel size. What should be a good camera (eos 5/6/60:80) for f/6.3 with a c8 and possible using a f/4 newton now and then?

Ok a seperate thread for a small question with a simple answer i hope. Im thinking out loud because i really dont have an answer!!  If glow is really problamatic for lets say the outer 33% of an image, full frame and cropped, and uncooled. Will one benefit from imaging with a full frame sensor and crop images afterwards to remove much of the glow?

(I know go cooled and astro-dedicated is the right answer😅😅.)  

Based on the fov examples given with each camera, it looks like sensor size and maybe increase of pixel density with larger sensors effect the fov, it looks like your target object fill a smaller part of the image when using larger sensors. 
 

So basically my question is: 

Does it help to get cleaner results when using a full frame sensor, wider fov, and increased pixel density to afterwards remove most of the unused area?

9 hours ago, Shimrod said:

doubt you will purchase your 'forever' kit on the first go

I understand.  My budget for this problem is 0-600,- prefer to end in the middle. But at this moment i miss a workable camera.  And therefore decided to go search for a dslr. Im sure buying a dedicated maincamera will happen when my budget for this will reach 1500,-.  First the bigger mount. And for choosing a dslr i Was wondering if build in intervelometer would be necessary for the un-asiaired sessions.  I learned not. For this problem the ML option is the best advive in my opinion.  And advice about current setup is helpful but not really what i needed to find out in this thread.  I really dont know what im talking about but i know i want to Hobby laptop-free, buy a small dedicated camera for guiding with an oag and for maybe some occasional shooting with small refractors, so for the moment The 60d-80d is what i prefer to use as maincamera.  And of course choosing for a dslr i based on not having any camera at this moment and on multiple reviews and experiences from others.   
 

i do have one additional question i cant really google a good answer for.  If imaging with a full-frame sensor gives a wider view, and probably i will walk in to the glow problem when (in July after mount upgrade) starting to do longer exposures, will someone benefit from cropping the image and maybe lose some of the ruined outerparts of an image? The leftovers of the glow are probably easier to fix then a fully effected image?

Oh no again that question?   HaHa im also a noob so cant answer.  But id buy second hand if i were you.  And start with 5” newton probably.  But i cant really give advice yet because i try to skip that first part

Ive not tried it but it keeps its setting when powered off i hope?   So lunar and solar should always turned af when going back to ✨?

32 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I'm sorry but I can't help thinking that you are over thinking the issue of long exposures on a DSLR. It strikes me that you will have more pressing issues to work through, not least the issue of selecting a suitable mount and guiding. Also, if you are keen to avoid wasting your efforts by trying to get the kit you need first off, rather than by building up as you gain experience, then perhaps you ought to be considering a full-frame cooled mono camera, LRGB filters, and a mount in the Mesu or 10Micro league. Sorry, I don't mean to be disparaging, but I think you will likely end up disappointed.

Ian

You are definitely right.  Just like many other members’ advices given.  Probably end up still learning in 2022.  I just dont want these multiple inbetween purchases.  1 or 2 steps maybe.  The setup you mentioned sounds so great.  Mono cooled astrophotography, on an eq6r with an 132 flt must be heaven for us all.   I hope im just one big step away😉

ps whats that story of a new meteorite?

10 minutes ago, haitch said:

Yeah just noticed the gear - 2m f/l (or even with a reducer) on a fully loaded Eq5 is more than pushing it unless you go down the hyperstar route.

Well the eq5 is history in July, and the camera ( i hope) not.  I have to anticipate a bit otherwise restart questioning in some months😬

Ok so Ml is going to do the intervals.  So when i make up a list of preferences in a dslr i have covered them with a 60d, the weatherproof, the flip screen, the option for setting intervals with ML installed on the memorycard, an asiair compatible model.... thats all i needed...i guess.

 What just arrived in my problemlist is maybe the cooling?  

I havent bought one yet so im able to make a last switch to solve the cooling issue.  But im not sure if it will help.  If i switch to full frame and suffer from (amp) glow, what i read is the edges are turning lighter, will cropping after stacking help?  So start bigger and end the size of a cropped version, removing much of the glow area?  Or does this question needs a new thread?

19 minutes ago, haitch said:

For anyone still in any doubt on the ML front, my 600D set for intervalometer timing of 3 minutes 10 secs with an exposure length of 3 minutes...

 

Oh great indeed.  So this way you have a 10 second pause between the images? And are you free to choose the length? Although the asiair will control my future dslr, for the un-asiaired moments this is also very good. So you dont need the seperate remote shutter control? Are you able to set the amount of images?

I really love good quality gear over the quantity of lots of inbetweens and ending up trying to sell the inbetween gear.  But i have to learn and make decisions based on others experiences.   A good dslr with almost all the needed functions cant be a bad choice i think.  Especially when the red-eye filter is removed.  
 

omg the cooling part will pop up🤪

50 minutes ago, Shimrod said:

I think you might want to change your approach to choosing your equipment. I am quite new at AP, although I have been in and out of astronomy over a number of years. There are plenty of people on here who will tell you that starting AP on an 8" SCT is a very steep learning curve (and as the owner of an 8" EdgeHD I am not going to argue! -  I have also bought 80mm refractor which I am finding much easier to image with). I am also using a Canon DLSR as I own one at the moment - if you are solely getting the camera for AP purposes, you would be better getting a dedicated camera from day one - the only exception I can think is if you cannot connect a camera to a laptop while using your scope. You also need to think about what you want to image - the 80mm gives a lot more flexibility for DSO than the 8" EdgeHD.

Yes thats def good advice.  Although, while not yet knowing how the bottom of that steep learningcurve diffrence from a slight curve when starting with a small apo.  I really like to do both.  Maybe stubborn thinking and a very common made mistake. But what if i really like to do ap with a newtonian in the end? I want to try all options i have available.  And in the back of my mind is also a dedicated camera. Maybe wrong thinking but planning a zwo as guider for the bigger ones.  And probably unguided on smaller apo’s.  I have to guess a lot because the lack of experience.  And what is would like to image is probably dso.

1 hour ago, The Admiral said:

Are you going to get away with exposures of greater than 30s with that set up?

Ian

Probably not.  But like buying a stationwagon when you expect children, i dont want to get experience in a camera when in 2 months have to replace it again. You are right I probably wont reach the long exposures with this setup.  

11 minutes ago, Shimrod said:

Cameras were damaged whale watching! If you want answers to the questions on camera weight and balancing you will need to share details of your telescope and mount - I can't see that you have mentioned either of those.

No sorry.  Didnt mentioned it in this thread.  For now its probably going to be used on an c8 on an eq5 unguided.  But also want to experience ap with an 8” newton or some small apos.  Have the 8” newton attached to a heq5 older white model i think. That stands in a side-room??  But when all goes well with ap with a dslr than dslr is going to be my camera for the future at least If no dedicated camera will be substantially better. And therefore rather invest in the stronger mount and probably a final apo some day.  So in short.  Planning for a setup based on 8” sct on a eq6 mount controlled with asiair v1. And the asiair lets me choose between canon and nikon.  

3 hours ago, Shimrod said:

I have had a Canon 60d and 70d both destroyed through ingress of salt water - the 70d was even in a rain jacket but it only takes the tiniest droplet of salt water to destroy electronics. I've also had a 7dmk2 stop working when caught in a heavy rainstorm, although that recovered after a drying out, so even better weatherproofing still has limited benefit. I would not worry about using any of the camera range for astronomy - if its too wet for the camera, it is going to be too wet for the telescope and all the other electronics. The advantage of the semi-pro and pro ranges (single digit cameras) is generally better features (dual memory cards, larger image buffer, faster shutter speeds, custom functions, more focus points), more resistant to impact and longer shutter life. Most of the better features will be of little use for astronomy but may be attractive if you are also buying this as a general purpose camera.

Here is the UK you can buy a used 70d for under £400 from a dealer with 12 month warranty. This has a better sensor than the 60d and also has built in wifi which may be an advantage for image transfer, and is one less cable attached to the back of the scope.

Correct yes.  When raining its probably over with stargazing anyway.  But you probably suffered these damaged cameras while doing normal photography i guess?  I was actually almost sure to buy one of the 60/70/80 models.  But when starting some conversations with some sellers 5 minutes ago i started to doubt if the extra weight is really going to be problematic, especially when im sure about one thing and thats going for the stronger mount.  Am i not to worried about al sort of non existing problems?  Pffff what a mess🤪.  All because some months ago reading that a used 1000d is a bargain for astrophotography.  Probably end up with buying a 1d and pouring concrete for the observatory.  The first seller who responds to my bids is the one who decides what camera im going to use😬

5 hours ago, BlueStinger said:

I also watched the Nico Carver video you mention Robindonne and bought the exact one he used (just a coincedence as it was the cheapest and only one in stock I could find) https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008A3PDMY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s03?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Indeed very cheep. If the used set doesn’t include a remote i will def buy one. Thx

11 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

I think you just have to cautious with any electronic kit in bad weather, as for the pro models they are only weather proof if using a pro L lens. There are lots of ways to minimize the effects of rain etc with suitable covers or even a plastic bag.

Alan

Yes i believe you’re right.  Water is killing electronics. I read some topics ago something about a nano spray.  Maybe when removing the red eye filter i will use it. Just in case.  Thx 

27 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

I've used my 60Da covered in dew and frost and in daytime in the rain with no ill effects [touch wood] 

Somewhere along the way the xx models changed from metal, magnesium ? bodies to plastic and the older ones were possibly tougher and more weather proof but later ones should be fine.

I use mine with a cheap wired intervalometer no laptops involved.

Dave

Yes.  I saw the 5d and maybe more models are housed in metal cases.  Dont really know if its better in protecting against dog and also against dew forming.  I believe sealing of inputs and buttons etc is more important. Actually think metal will cause more dew inside than plastic but i can be wrong.  Im going for the 60d and maybe 70 or 80 or perhaps 90 but i dont think they will pop up in used condition under €600,-   Thx for all the helpful info

3 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

The Canon 60D and 80D for that matter are weather sealed and considered dust and splash proof but dont offer quite the protection of the pro models.

Alan

 

Thx.  Yes that was what i was hoping for.  A bit protection is fine for me. Im not that fanatic to go out in the rain i think. But should i go for pro models? To have longer cameralife?   I really have no idea what situations you can get in at night.  I  have seen some pictures of frozen equipment etc.  But drying electronics in the open indoor should do well i think?

2 hours ago, Shimrod said:

The Canon 60d is not waterproof - if you want a weatherproofed camera (and even then not waterproof) you need a single digit camera such as the 5D, 7D or 7Dmk2, examples of which you should find in budget if shopping used. The 7dmk2 was also the first camera for Canon EOS to have an intervalometer built in. It is limited to a maximum exposure of 30 seconds. If you are using a laptop or tablet there is software available (Canon provide EOS Utility on PC/Mac, Camera Connect on Android) which will let you control the camera and have all the intervalometer settings you desire. It also means you are not trying to assess focus and images on the small camera LCD screen which can help avoid a wasted evening of what you think are 'good' shots! It also means that you don't need to restrict yourself to a camera with a fold out screen if you see a good deal on another model.

Well i checked some other forums and reviews etc.  And they say indeed canon doesnt claim to be their 60d is waterproof.  At least not for underwater use.  I dont have manuals available for the 60d but i have to trust a bit on the mentioned foggy weatherproof.  And that was all i expected and hoped for.  After reading people killing their mount electronics due to some foggy nights i was keen on finding a piece of electronics thats a bit more sealed against at least fog and some dust.  

1 hour ago, MarkAR said:

The Canon definitely will not let you use the internal intervalometer in Bulb mode so you will be restricted to 30s. You will either need to get an intervalometer or control it via software on a computer to set up multiple longer exposures. 

Ok. Then i will skip the search for models with build in intervalometer.  I was planning to use it with asiair anyway.  But when swapping to other scopes without needing to also move the asiair is probably time costing.  And indeed magic lantarn can step in for these moments.  Thx

1 hour ago, Shimrod said:

The Canon 60d is not waterproof - if you want a weatherproofed camera (and even then not waterproof) you need a single digit camera such as the 5D, 7D or 7Dmk2, examples of which you should find in budget if shopping used. The 7dmk2 was also the first camera for Canon EOS to have an intervalometer built in. It is limited to a maximum exposure of 30 seconds. If you are using a laptop or tablet there is software available (Canon provide EOS Utility on PC/Mac, Camera Connect on Android) which will let you control the camera and have all the intervalometer settings you desire. It also means you are not trying to assess focus and images on the small camera LCD screen which can help avoid a wasted evening of what you think are 'good' shots! It also means that you don't need to restrict yourself to a camera with a fold out screen if you see a good deal on another model.

Oh so shouldnt trust this info anymore from versus.com.  I actually used it a lot for comparing.  Im going to look into its reliability.  Dont want to be surprised after buying it.  “Weerbestendig” is our word for weatherproof and “stof- en waterbestendig” is translated dust and waterproof.  But i will definately check some other sources after you provided Me other info.  Thx