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noah4x4

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Posts posted by noah4x4

  1. Cloudy Nights Cloudy Nights Forums has a very active EAA/EEVA group with links to videos and excellent technical threads. For example, an international group of us starting in Australia/NZ and crossing Europe then ending in USA completed a 'Messier Marathon' last weekend and the available YouTube Video demonstrates such users capturing all 110 Messier objects using a variety of telescopes, SCT, Newtonian, Dobsonian, even an EVScope and also demonstrating SharpCap, ASILive, ASIPro etc.  Its a long watch, but you might learn plenty. 

    Just one thought about your set-up. Your ZWO ASI224mc has a tiny sensor and hence tiny field of view.  You may have a challenging time finding objects and keeping them in FOV, albeit that an f/6 scope it won't be as hard as with an f/10.  But try plate-solving in Sharpcap as that might make life easier. 

     

     

    • Like 1
  2. On 07/01/2022 at 17:10, malc-c said:

    I think your comments are valid, but the OP made no mention of EEVA, and even stated that post processing would be done on a more capable PC.  

    For simply controlling equipment, and data gathering a lot of the recommendations above will still suit the task, including an old dual core Pentium :)  -  If you wanted to do EEVA or stack and process the data gathered at the time of gathering data then I agree a much more capable machine is required, and agree with your comments regarding newer processors outclassing older processors of a higher order.  This then brings into question the dilemma of having two machines, or putting all your eggs in one basket and get a machine that is capable of doing it all.  If so then I would suggest that any machine that is 18 months or newer would be a future proof option.  In a few months time AMD will be releasing their new range of processors that have been spec's to run at 5Ghz on all cores... making them the ideal processor for anything that needs the umph such as video / cgi rendering and image processing....

    If not intending to pursue EEVA (live stacking etc), then why post the question in an EEVA equipment forum?

    I have two Intel seventh generation i5 NUCSs purchased within the last 18 months and it is already evident that they won't run Windows 11, so how is the timing of purchase any guarantee of future proofing? It is also still possible to buy new low specification Celeron specification PCs.  My post deliberately embraced the full gamut of imaging from single exposures (1) to the opposite extreme of high resolution, live stacking at 4K UHD (6). I clearly stated that (1) requires minimal computing and (6) significant, with escalating demand on CPU and RAM in between. The OP needs to determine where he fits within that range.  But my response was because I was concerned that the common thrust of this thread was that "almost any PC will do", which isn't helpful to the unwary.  Equipment specifications are also changing fast after many years of being stuck in the low resolution CCD paradigm. 

    How long before 10 megapixel + astro cameras become routine? Today, you can't buy a new DSLR with anything less than 24 megapixel. Such demand drives sensor availability within the astro-camera market.  Count how many different CMOS cameras have been launched by ZWO in the last four years, each driven by obsolescence of their previous 'wonder sensor'. Note how CCD has become incredibly expensive, and how CMOS dominates new astro camera purchases.  4K UHD is becoming the de facto standard for TVs and prices of large screen 4K panels have crashed from £5,000 to under £500 in no time at all. My Viewsonic 30" 4K UHD monitor was merely £250.   What is the point of buying a camera like a ZWO ASI294 or ASI533 or  Atik Horizon each exceeding 4K UHD and then limiting its display to mere 1080p HD? The technology of commonly purchased camera sensors is already outstripping current display and computer convention common in astronomy circles.

    Frankly, I wasted nearly £1,500 on two (i5) mini-computers that worked fine for traditional AP on a 1080p monitor, but proved hopeless for anything more intensive.  I am now on my third NUC, an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM (hence have spent over £2,000 in total on mini-computers) and it works fine for (6), but  that is perhaps still not ensuring future proofing. For example, SharpCap 4.0 Pro has just added 'sequencing' functionality.  Hence, features previously only seen in expensive software like Maxim DL are  available in £12 per annum licence software.  I already know people that are now not just adding 'darks and flats on the fly', they are plate-solving and auto-focussing between each live stacked frame.  Hence, demands on CPU and RAM are soaring, unless one remains stuck in a current less challenging paradigm.

    The reason I wasted so much money was because people keep reinforcing the stereotype that virtually "any PC will do."  My point is that it is vital to think holistically  and much depends NOT upon what you plan to do today, but what you MIGHT  be doing next year. 

     

     

  3. I would urge caution.....

    All the above posts suggest that you need limited computing power and minimum RAM. That is true for astrophotography, but for EEVA (EAA) it is only true up to a point.....

    For example, the last post mentions 'Post-Processing'. and the transfer of data to a more powerful PC.  Some earlier posts also only talk about 'Data Capture'.  I don't want to start a debate about what is or isn't EEVA, but the tasks involved are highly material to the computing power required. Some other forums don't consider post processing as included within EEVA (EAA). Most people consider EAA to be near live observing (albeit you might save an image too) . LIVE frame stacking inevitably requires more IMMEDIATE computing power and RAM than if capturing data for LATER post processing. 

    1.  If doing single exposure long term astrophotography, then you need little computing power or RAM.

    2.  If capturing multiple exposures and <saving> them for LATER post processing you still need very little processing power - but storage might be a consideration - and post processing might take a considerable time dependent of speed of CPU.

    3. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures with each frame exceeding ten seconds when using a low resolution, small sensor camera you might still need merely a modest amount of extra computing power.

    4. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures, each frame exceeding ten seconds length, using a high resolution, large sensor camera you then need more computing power. Perhaps a decent i3.

    5. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures using a high resolution, large sensor camera, plus adding darks on the fly, and other sequenced tasks, you need far more computing power. Perhaps at least decent i5. but be cautions as Intel processors come in generations. An older i7 is slower than a recent i3.

    6. If you do as I do, live stack two second exposures, using HyperStar at f/2, using a high resolution, large sensor camera in and 'end to end' 4K UHD system then you need at least an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM.

    7. The chosen operating system is also highly material. Windows 10 is a resource hog. Other operating systems are far less greedy.  

    I read many posts telling us that any old budget computer will do for EEVA (EAA) and that advice cost me silly money in progressive upgrades because I did not heed the above. Few of the posts above specify what camera, what f/ratio, what length of exposures (time), what size of frames (data) , what frame rate (faster means more data throughput), what sensor size, what resolution, whether post processing or live stacking etc.  EEVA, (EAA) as defined in Stargazers Lounge is a broad church. ranging from 2 to 6. Do NOT underestimate your computing and RAM requirements. if nearer 6.

     

    • Like 1
  4. Long USB active cables and hubs are terribly fickle. One can be successful over Cat6 cable and a USB extender as described, but adequate power is crucial. However, I found that the most successful route is.......

    1.   Put a mini-computer at scope running all software.

    2.  Control 1 from a computer indoors using Remote Desktop.

    3.  Connect 1 and 2 over either Cat6 cable or a 5Ghz WiFi network.

    I use the 5Ghz WiFi option via BT Whole home MESH WiFi extenders.  Over longer distances Station and Access Point devices from Ubiquiti also work great.

    Remote Desktop replicates the screen of 1 on computer 2. So this route works for camera and focusser control too. 

    I favour Windows 10 Pro/Windows Remote Desktop (an upgrade from Win 10 Home costs about £110) but there are free versions of remote desktop if you don't object to their issues and intrusions. I favour the Microsoft route albeit it has a cost (upgrade to Win 10 Pro on one computer) , then I know I have better security, having discovered that many of the free versions of RDT have an origin in Russia or China. 

  5. Probably not (but I have not tried) as normally,  Celestron devices won't work that way and you have to stay with the device that did the alignment.  If connecting CPWI by cable to HC, definitely not as the HC must go into Boot loader mode. 

    However, my system works great simply auto-aligning my scope using Starsense from within CPWI. I observe only from indoors and remotely control scope, camera and focusser from laptop networked to a mini-computer at the scope using Windows Remote Desktop over a 5Ghz WiFi network. 

    Additionally, I plug in both my Starsense HC and Nexstar+ HC. Whilst the Starsense enters Boot loader mode (and is superseded by CPWI), the direction buttons still with on the Nexstar + HC

    However, there is a way of doing what you want to do. Instead of CPWI, use Stellarium via the ASCOM platform. 

  6. I spent £££££'s on upgrading eyepieces,  diagonals and similar visual paraphernalia before buying 'Turn left at Orion.  This was the point I realised faint fuzzies would never satisfy me. I had spent even more £££££'s on travel and hotels to Dark Sky sites only to be frustrated by cloud. Then a pal showed me what he could see with a camera from his light polluted back yard.  I can now set up with full remote control and be  observing from indoors in under ten minutes. I leave my scope fully assembled (excluding camera/Hyperstar)  and carry it outdoors.

    I bolt mini-computer and focuser controller to an ABS Plastic Box that slides onto my tripod rod and sits on the leg spreader. Surplus cables are hidden in the box.  Because this lowers the centre of gravity, my 8" Evolution is now easier to carry, caber tossing style. I discarded wedge, as it proved unnecessary with short stacked exposures and added 16lbs weight. I challenge anybody to devise a more cable tidy and convenient to set up rig where near live observations are made indoors in glorious 4K UHD resolution. 

     

    IMG_0159.jpg.3ff589950d47017fc89f7078093e2653.jpg

    Jupiter.JPG

    post-257973-0-59329100-1615011133.jpg

    • Like 2
  7. Gary Hawkins is a prolific live streamer and enjoys the weather to permit this.  Another enthusiast is Doug from Emerald Hills Skies. His channel can be found at Emerald Hills Skies - YouTube

    Doug brilliantly organised the Zoom Messier Marathon that I mentioned earlier. Gary (like me) participated, also  Roel (from Belgium) and Robert from UK (both SGL members) joined the fun.  If you subscribe to Doug's YouTube Channel I am sure that you will hear of future live on-line events. It would be good to get a few more UK/European participants involved.  I agree with Brown Dwarf,  this ambitious type of event does need international participation, else if all were located in the UK we might simply end up drinking and crying together whilst looking at clouds. Wow, I've just inverted the virtual Astro- Zoom pub!

     

     

     

  8. Unfortunately, as the weather in the UK is so unpredictable, announcing a live broadcast session is fraught with challenges.  More likely than not the event might be cancelled due to cloud, hence leaving a good many potential viewers disappointed.  It is far more likely that you will find ad-hoc streams from UK observers being posted on YouTube that are published after the event. However, some of our pals in the USA tend to enjoy better weather  (such as in California) and hence enjoy far greater live broadcast opportunity. There are also some dedicated channels for this purpose.  I think it would be a good idea if SGL did have a page where announcements  could be made about forthcoming live streams, but I doubt if there would be very many originating from the UK. 

    However, I recently participated in an international cooperation on-line 'Messier Marathon' via the Cloudy Nights EAA Forum and I see no reason why something similar would not work in Stargazers Lounge. ..

    Basically, a team of EAA observers  that only knew each other via text  messaging in a forum, from Italy, Belgium, UK, and the USA/Canada joined a Zoom meeting that started after dusk in Europe.  It was then still daylight in the USA, but US observers could enjoy our European after dark input. (from Belgium and Italy as we were blighted by cloud).  Images were initially captured in Europe and folk shared their screens with our US colleagues via Zoom.  Progressively,  dark skies embraced those ever further west, so we in Europe could then enjoy the views appearing on  USA screens. Frankly it was utter madness as it became a chase and race to determine who could capture what from the Messier catalogue and when, but it was great fun and comradery.  I am not sure it would have worked so well had we not defined an objective (such as the Messier catalogue),  but other topics are possible. One wag even suggested if enough participants, next time, we could attempt to do the entire NGC catalogue! 

    Ultimately, the 'Team' managed to capture and share on screen (near) live views of all 110 Messier objects in about 12 hours where folk would stay for a couple of hours, grab some sleep then return.  Sadly, the least number of contributions as regards images came from the UK as cloud engulfed us (again).  Similar events probably do need to be led by US observers with kinder skies. However, as this was a interactive Zoom conversation, those blighted by cloud were able to make a significant contribution in other ways, such as demonstrating our equipment. We all learned an enormous amount about the software used by others.  This Messier event was possibly the world's first international on-line gathering of EAA enthusiasts doing what we do best (which might be only cloud watching in some locations!)  Another such event is planned later this month. 

    If enough people were interested in SGL (n.b. we would need a number with guaranteed good skies else it might flop) we could perhaps attempt something.  My only thought though is that we don't get that many threads in EEVA, so we might not have enough participants to make it viable. 

    • Like 2
  9. On 26/03/2021 at 08:03, Clarkey said:

    It's funny how many people seem to have endless problems with USB. I have a 15m USB 3 active cable and a 12v powered USB hub and have had no issues over the last year of use. I have taped all of the joints and 'active' parts of the cable to make it as waterproof as possible. I seem to be the exception though!

    Much depends on camera and what purpose. Your principle cameras are high resolution, larger sensor and data hungry, which can be an issue. However,  if you are capturing frames for later stacking and post processing 15M Active USB should be fine.  The process might be a tad slow, but within USB tolerance. However, try live stacking extremely short duration exposures at fast frame rates, such as those possible at f/2 on HyperStar  or RASA.  Then output data to a 4K UHD display as I do. Like anything technical, there are limits and USB is no exception.  It is not easy to predict where any particular methodology breaks as there are so many variables. But the important thing is to plan remote control rigs holistically, be they cable or wireless connected.  If not it is easy to underestimate connectivity requirements and computing power.

  10. Your first challenge will be aligning your scope and finding these planets in the narrow FOV of an ASI224mc and then tracking, them (unless you align during dark when you can see stars). A solar system alignment is possible using the Sun, but take care to use an appropriate filter. 

     I have recently witnessed somebody capturing the bright core of M81 at a fairly bright dawn to complete a Messier Marathon. Jupiter and Saturn ought to be easier. But I suspect all that you might capture is a white disc of reflected sunlight. If any camera will succeed, the fast frame ASI224 is perhaps tje most likely. Higher specification more sensitive cameras  might just over expose. But I am curious enough to attempt this myself! 

  11. As I said, I could clearly see the four primary stars of the Trapezium on my 4K UHD screen, but in reducing the file from 18Mb to fit SGL they have, sadly, become lost. Roel has done a far better job as in his posted image he has succeeded as I can clearly see the four stars AND the beautiful nebulosity.

    No disrespect, but the other images in this thread clearly show the Trapezium and the core, but no nebulosity. They look more like the faint fuzzies you see in visual astronomy. Roel and Martin jpintly get my prize for what I think is one of the hardest challenges in EEAA. Capture Trapezium plus nebulosity. 

    • Thanks 1
  12. On 12/03/2021 at 22:02, oldfruit said:

    Hi,

     

    I am keen to set un an EEVA rig. Just wondered what camera to use for the best results? I will be starting with an NEQ6 and a 8 inch Newtonian F5 scope.

    Also, how long a cable can I expect to run from obsy to house. Currently about 12m. Is this doable?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Before you think about cameras, think holistically about what you want to do...

    The specified optimum length of  standard USB3 cable is merely 3 metres.

    The specified optimum length of standard USB2 cable is merely 5 metres.

    You might succeed over 12 metres with 'Active' cables  if they have their own separate power supply.  However, be prepared for failure.  I wasted a tonne of money on cables that didn't work over a similar 12M distance.

    Your best bet might be to put a mini-computer at the scope running all your software; which is then controlled by a laptop indoors using Windows Remote Desktop (or similar). You can then connect the computers by Cat6 cable or WiFi.  I use an Intel NUC at the scope and WiFi, but even that required MESH extenders.  There are no easy solutions unless you buy a proprietary WiFi solution like Atik  Air or ASI Air (ZWO), but they lock you into specific camera manufacturers.  Hence,  my comment about think holistically.

    As regards, cameras,...

    Budget priced ZWO cameras like ASI224mc are great for planets, but have a very narrow Field of View. That can make life difficult for beginners and the FOV is too narrow for many DSO's

    More forgiving are larger sensor cameras like the ASI294mc and ASI533mc.  But the price is higher. These are good all-rounders.

    Even better are the cooled versions of such cameras., but you are then upping budget again.

    To answer your question, no single camera is ideal for all purposes. So to guide you we really need to know what you want to see and what is your budget.

     

  13. There is nothing exception about an easy target like M42. However, most when chasing the nebulosity completely blow out the core. What I did here was reduce exposures to 8 seconds and increase Gain (108s total, Gain 400) using 8" Evolution (no wedge or guiding) with x6.3 FR and ASI294mc.  With modern CMOS cameras, you have greater exposure/gain combinations and lesser exposure length, but longer total integration time is the knack. My image has lost a little detail in cropping and reducing resolution to fit SGL image limits. But on my 4K UHD graphics display the Trapezium is clearly defined. Again, merely 108 seconds total integration time, not even two minutes. 

     

    Stack_26frames_108s_WithDisplayStretch.PNG.392527d63f1eb8f7310043842dea9192.PNG

    • Like 1
  14. Be ready for grief with long USB cables. The maximum recommended lengths are surprisingly short. I wasted ££££'s on active USB cables and powered hubs and still failed.

    Your better route is to put a mini computer at yoir scope running all your software. Then connect that to a laptop indoors using cat6 cable or WiFi. Then control the scope side computer from the laptop over Windows Remote Desktop (or similar). Cat6 will work up to 100M, whilst WiFi range will depends on your home network (I use BT Whole Home MESH extenders). But both are more reliable than USB beyond 3 to 5 metres.

  15. The problem with buying any low budget small sensor camera for EAA is you might find it challenging to get objects on screen due to the camera's narrow FOV. Much depends on mount, GoTo and tracking accuracy, but embracing small sensors is the hardest of entry routes and a recipe for frustrations if inexperienced.  

    I suffered much frustration as a novice, and eventually I went completely the other way and bought Hyperstar to maximise my FOV, but I am not suggesting anything so radical. However lower focal ratios do assist.  Frankly, I think the best camera for a novice is either an ASI294mc or ASI533. These might be almost double the price of an ASI224mc, but it will reduce the  frustration and offer significantly better results than a low budget planetary camera.. 

  16. Further to my post above that offers a solution to rear end clearance on Alt- Az, but only for non-cooled cameras,  I have discovered that the 105mm back focus behind the Celestron x6.3 FR is only sacrosanct in Refractors and Reflectors. An SCT achieves focus by moving the mirror and the extent of adjustment is far greater. However, a Crayford Focuser introduces unnecessary challenges with an SCT.

    My optical train is now OTA > FR > Celestron 2" dielectric diagonal > Camera. 

    The diagonal has a light path of 137mm, far greater than 105mm. But I can achieve perfect focus. Running this through the Wilmsloastro tool it calculates my focal ratio to be 5.3, so my scope is a little faster from extending the light path.. But with either of the 2" solutions I describe, I enjoy perfect focus and suffer no undue aberations with a 4/3" sensor.

     

  17. If you use a x6.3 Focal Reducer you typically require 105mm back focus (distance between FR and camera sensor).  I read earlier today that one of the Click Lock diagonals has a 112mm light path, hence too long.  Most 2" diagonals are far too long. You need to check your light path. 

    I achieve 105mm as follows and am resigned to having to embrace a different optical train if I want to pursue visual. 

    OTA > FR > T-Adapter > Baader Varilock (or other spacers)  > camera.

    EDIT

    Think I might have misunderstood. If you are referring to a click lock replacing the visual back, then you would attach FR to that and the 105mm trails that. Whether you can achieve focus is another matter (I don't know). But most of us screw FR directly to OTA as shown. 

    IMG_0220.jpg.3f0de514af743040048f1757c775a9ae.jpg

  18. I might be throwing a spanner in the works, but are we talking about an 6" Alt-Az or is it mounted on a GEM? Ignore this post if the latter.

    Back focus required is 105mm after the focal reducer. I achieve that by;

    OTA > FR > T-Adapter > Baader Varilock > Camera. 

    I can just achieve rear end clearance going to the Zenith on my 8" Evolution provided I am using a (short) non-cooled camera. Won't rear end clearance be a problem with a 6SE Alt-Az if you try to add a Crayford Focuser?  There is a little flexibility in the 105mm, but you need to be close. I simply use my regular focusser, albeit motorised. See image.

     

    IMG_0220.jpg

  19. My experience with Orion Optics UK is recent (August 2020).

    OOUK performed a complete service of my Celestron Evolution OTA including realignment of my corrector plate and secondary mirror holder,  refurbishment of mirrors etc. What really impressed me is that without extra charge they replaced my Bob's Knobs (ghastly devices) with Allen bolts and lined my loose dust cover with felt to make it more secure. I was delighted with the results, service, speed and price. Whilst at the factory, I was shown models their own range and how they do stuff. Really impressed, indeed envious.

  20. Sorry about the delayed reply. I tend to use Passmark benchmarks.

    I too was under the assumption from reading historic posts in SGL and CN that you don't need much horsepower for "imaging".  But that myth developed because it is not that long ago folk were using low resolution, large pixel CCDs. 

    Today, most new astro cameras are CMOS and available sensor producion is being driven by sensor demand in the far larger terrestrial camera market where we are now seeing larger sensor high resolution entry level cameras (even in mobile phones). The ZWO ASI1600 and Atik Horizon OSCs recently ceased producton as sensor production dried up. Quite modest astro workhorses like the ASI294mc are 10+ Megapixel.  Much then depends on frame rate or rate of capture. Double digit megapixel cameras churn out 48Mb + individual frames. Consider how long it takes to send a A4 page of coloured text to your printer (as that is a circa a 48Mb file). OK, that's more processing than mere saving image data, but you get the idea.

    I happen to use Hyperstar, so I might be generating one 48Mb frame every two seconds at f/2.  If doing Lunar or Planetary frames rate soar. Of course, if you merely capture images on a lesser machine and then post-process later on a faster machine you will have a bit of headroom.  However, a recent i5 and 8Gb should be good for your purpose. But try live stacking (EAA style) and you might discover the computing power required is more significant. My 8th generation i5 crawled when attempting live stacking from my 16 Megapixel Atik Horizon.  I had to leap to 8i7 and 16Gb RAM to enjoy (near) real time live stacking.

     

  21. An AMD E-450 processor has a CPU benchmark of merely 417. That is incredibly slow by current standards. 

    I have a 16Mp and a 11Mp camera and they both stuttered with an Intel i5 and 8Gb RAM. I didn't enjoy 'near live' performance until I upgraded to an 8th generation i7 with 16Gb RAM having CPU benchmark near 6,000. More recent processors are 10,000+.

    Much depends on what you want to do. If prepared to download and post process high resolution frames over many hours you can succeed with minimal computing power. However, I think you are too underpowered for anything  close to 'near live' processing activities, given that even 11Mp exceeds 4K UHD resolution.

     

  22. There is an easy way in Sharpcap that is so good I can get close to the right gain/exposure without even looking at my DSO object.

    1.  First focus on any star. Then Goto your target. 

    2.  Next open Smart Histogram in logarithmic mode.

    3.  Adjust gain until the two upper green bars in Smart Histogram  are at their maximum length and square ends are aligned left.

    4.  Adjust exposure until the steep slope at the left edge of the histogram is a fraction to the right of the left end of the green bars. 

    Now look at your target. You will be within a notch of perfect gain and exposure. Tweak that (and focus) from there.

    You might need to perform a Sensor Analysis before step (2), but this has already been done in Sharpcap for most popular ZWO cameras. Few people seem to embrace Smart Histogram, yet I find it brilliant. I still don't know my gain from my ISO, but with Smart Histogram it's sorted for me. 

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