I'm cheesed off with AP- tempted to quit.

[A40farinagolf]

All,

It's probably too late in the evening to write this thread but here goes.

As can be seen in my profile I have loads of gear but no idea.

I don't have access to a laptop (on a regular basis) so I've just taken delivery of a brand new Baader Smartguider 2 - after several hours of trying to get it to do simple tasks and after several emails to the retailer I am approaching the point of giving up on it. The reviews say that it's intuitive and easy to use, it's not for me and the poorly scripted instructions don't help. It might be on UKABAS next week.

So having almost given up on the Smartguider I borrowed my daughters laptop to download PHD, another easy to use, intuitive piece of software - not.

I've wasted another 3 hours trying to do loads of things and I'm still no nearer, some of things I've done are as follows:

Download PHD quite easy

Connect to guide camera - ZWO ASI120MC not listed but managed to find a solution from SGL eventually. so much for intuitive.

Connect to telescope 1 - ASCOM driver not installed so followed instructions and "ticked / checkmarked" Microsoft.NET in thecontrol panel then downloaded ASCOM platform.

Connect telescope - 2 - which one do I connect to? ASCOM dome control, Generic hub, pipe diagnostic tool, POTH hub, simulator or simulator.net no idea which to use - so much for intuitive.

I picked Telescope Simulator for.NET and entered and completed several properties. Can I get it to move my mount can I heck as like.

I'm writing this thread out of frustration as there must be a simpler way of getting these systems to link and control.

At the moment I'm thinking of selling all my AP gear and going back to purely visual - I've always found visual quite calming but getting into AP has been a pain in the proverbial so far and the cons definitely outweigh the pros.

Apologies for the whinge and I'm unsure as to what response / help I'm looking for as I haven't been very specific with the problems.

I'll sleep on it I think.

[Thalestris24]

Hi

Sorry you are finding things difficult. It all takes time and effort I'm afraid... You have Ascom but you don't mention Eqmod/Eqascom? You really need that to interface to the mount. Also you probably want OpenPhdGuiding which is much better than the old PHD. There are useful videos on YouTube for eqmod and openphd. However, you do need a laptop to use them plus appropriate cables. Not sure why you had trouble with the Smartguider - I think there are a few people on here that use them successfully so I'm sure they'd be able to help if you post a separate topic -  probably best in the 'getting started with imaging' section. If you can get the standalone guider up and running it will at least save you from having to use a laptop and all the software though that does have lots of advantages.

Louise

[wxsatuser]

I understand your frustration.

Bought the Lacerta standalone and although I had it guiding almost immediately

it's taken at least three sessions to make everything work how I want it.

These three sessions have been the only three real clear nights in three months.

Although gutted to waste clear skies at least I know when the next ones turn up,

it will all work ok.

In this game we have to make a lot of sacrifice and a few times I wanted to give in.

Still here and still taking the punishment.

[nightfisher]

I cant offer much help as i dont do deep sky imaging, maybe some one that lives close to you might be able to pop over and go through a set up and get you up and running

[alan potts]

Well if it gives you any encouragement I read you post and the first reply and didn't understand any of it, so your miles in front of me. I tend to agree with you though some of these instructions are little help as they are very poorly written, I have a few AP things and have massive difficulty working out how they work, which is why they are all still in their boxes.

Good luck and don't lose heart.

Alan

[PeterCPC]

If it's any help, I guide using a ST4 cable and the "on camera" setting in PHD. I find it simpler to use.

Peter

[Owmuchonomy]

It can be very frustrating. If it happens here I tend to go back to visual for a breather whilst I think it through. A lot of people on here use all sorts of software to do stuff. All I use is PHD2 which is great and EOS Utilities. However I do use a Mac and I would never go near a PC again. There is nothing wrong with the Synscan V4 handset either. Perhaps take a break and come back to it?

[ollypenrice]

If it's any help, I guide using a ST4 cable and the "on camera" setting in PHD. I find it simpler to use.

Peter

So do I.

The OP is certainly not alone in finding his standalone guider problematic. Ever since they first appeared there has been a clear pattern of user experiences on here - a pattern of 'no pattern!' For some they just work. For a significant number of other people they 'just don't work.'  My own feeling is that, sometimes, trying to simplify things makes them harder. It's a design and engineering maxim that 'complexity brings control' and for me having a separate guide camera, third party software and an extra cable (the ST4) actually makes life easier by giving more control.

I have the feeling that, like me, the OP is not entirely at home in the IT world. Forgive me if I'm wrong. If that's the case it might be as well to draw on outside expertise while trying to get these gadgets to talk to each other. This is what I do as my son in law, my friend Brian and a large number of our guests know from experience! 

Getting it all to work takes time. But it can be done. Once you have it running DON'T CHANGE IT.  You will have to fend off endless helpul suggestions regarding tryng this or that marvellous time saving bit of IT. Resist them! DOn't even think aout touching up that small scratch on your dewshild. It will wreck you guiding, ruin your flats and your darks will never work again...  *

Olly.

*I'm only half joking here, as many imagers will know...

[steppenwolf]

Although they do work, I am no a great fan of stand alone guiders and much prefer to have PC control over guiding where you can more easily see what is going on.

The key to getting into AP is to simplify things as much as you can and to this end, I'd recommend that you START guiding using the ST4 port on your ZWO ASI120MC camera and mount as this takes out one layer of software connectivity - you can move on to 'pulse guiding' later.

I cannot really say how long you should persevere with the stand alone guider but the facts are that as you progress in AP, a laptop computer will feature strongly in the whole process so you may just as well use it for guiding as well. You could buy a suitable laptop for the cost of a stand alone guider!

[A40farinagolf]

Thanks for the comments and guidance received so far, it's reassuring to know that it's not just me having problems.

At the back of my mind I really want to overcome the challenges so that I can produce some decent images.

However I'm also thinking that if I sell my AP gear I'd easily have enough to buy a top quality pair of 45 deg angled binos with eyepieces for "grab n go" - no wires, no batteries, no reboots, no long winded set up times. That would be great short term win but would mean admitting defeat and quitting which I'm not into either.

Optically and mechanically I'm OK with stuff it's just the pesky I.T that spoils things - How about Ctrl, Alt Del that might work?

As suggested by others I might forget about it for while and stick with visual when the clouds abate.

Seasons Greeting,

M

[A40farinagolf]

It can be very frustrating. If it happens here I tend to go back to visual for a breather whilst I think it through. A lot of people on here use all sorts of software to do stuff. All I use is PHD2 which is great and EOS Utilities. However I do use a Mac and I would never go near a PC again. There is nothing wrong with the Synscan V4 handset either. Perhaps take a break and come back to it?

Hi Owmuchonomy,

Thanks for the comments, just wondering what you mean by "There is nothing wrong with the Synscan V4 handset either."

[DanL]

It sounds like you have got a bit overwhelmed by all the software. It's not always the most intuitive thing to use but try to find a FAQ page or guide video on YouTube and follow step by step. But take a break for an hour if you get frustrated. I always find things often seem clearer when you give your subconscious time to process [emoji4]

[Uranium235]

It might be better if you can obtain a small netbook for dedicated astro use, it doesnt have to be posh (im still using a 1gb aspire one with XP). Get PHD, Ascom and all the other required gubbins installed on it - then once you get it working, leave it alone... forever. The only change I made to mine was updating Artemis capture for the CCD, everything else is as it was four years ago. In fact, it might even be worth taking an image of the HDD so you have a snapshot of your system (should anything ever go horribly wrong).

As mentioned above, use "on camera" guiding via the ST4 port - no need to try pulse guiding (never needed it here). Then its going to be a case of finding the best calibration/guide settings for your guidescope. I remember spending many a long, dark night in the shed shouting and swearing at PHD - but eventually you will learn what your gear does/does not like. What may apply for one person, may not apply to you.

Daytime testing might be useful for checking whether PHD is sending commands to your mount correctly. That can be done by switching PHD to manual guide and clicking the N/S/E/W buttons repeatedly until you get some movement. It will be hard to detect by eye, but the usual givaway is a change in the sound the NEQ6 makes - another trick is to tape a cane to the telescope (so it makes it really long) as movement will be easier to detect visually with something long.

Patience is the key, dont expect to learn the dark side of the force overnight

[Owmuchonomy]

Hi Owmuchonomy,

Thanks for the comments, just wondering what you mean by "There is nothing wrong with the Synscan V4 handset either."

Well, like Olly I steer clear of software solutions if I can help it so unlike others I prefer to stick with the handset provided with the mount (which is great by the way) than use 3rd party solutions for controlling the scope.  It's just me and how I prefer to go about it. Loads of other folks have great results using a pile of PC software.  I have one USB cable into my Macbook Air and a (very) cheap Belkin hub which controls the guiding and the photography.  I then have a long Cat 5 cable from the handset (next to the Mac) which controls the scope functions. Sometimes life is too short...

[glowingturnip]

+1 for using ST4 instead of ASCOM.

ASCOM is supposed to work with a dedicated driver that should be downloadable for your specific mount.  The trouble is the Skywatcher mounts don't have an ASCOM driver to use, which is why you weren't getting any joy (you were actually using the simulator, a pretend mount just for experimenting with software).

I've got the same mount as you - I just use the ST4 cable (looks like a modem cable) connected from your camera direct to mount and select 'on camera' in PHD.  Others use EQMOD inbetween ASCOM and the mount

[Drop Of Sun]

Given how cloudy it is here I found it tricky to do both imaging and visual. The idea was nice - have the stuff imaging and do some observing while it takes snaps. But I found the imaging took over. Sometimes there would be a hitch. I was wanting to keep checking the images, and the whole setup and takedown with no obsy was a bit of a drag for me. After setting up I wasn't really in a relaxed mood focused on visual so the visual suffered for me, I imagine others have managed it much better.

With hindsight I wish I had stuck to the visual. If I ever go back to deep sky imaging, I will only do it if I have an obsy that will help to simplify the setup and perhaps a really expensive mount that hopefully needs little checking up on.

I do lunar and solar imaging now to get my imaging fix. Of course solar does not interrupt my night sky visual, and the lunar doesn't conflict too much either, and the setup is a little easier as I don't need accurate alignment or guiding.

I think it all depends on you. How much do you want to do DSO imaging? For me it makes sense to get things working now and give it a whirl and see if the bug bites? I had some hitches getting things going but it was great when it all worked!

[Scott]

I'm going to go against the grain and say I prefer guiding without the ST4. The reason? At a star party, I was tearing my hair out trying to get guiding to work. Steppenwolf was kind enough to go through things with me and as a last resort, we scrapped the st4 and went pulse guiding via ascom/eqmod. turned out it was the cable causing the trouble and I've never looked back .

As for packing it all in and going visual, thats something only you can decide. Some folk just don't get on with AP and some don't like visual. Me? I'll take both please

[gajjer]

A40farinagolf.

I thought it was just me that found it difficult. I thought I had done all the right things and just seemed to keep hitting problems.

I'd like to think I'm reasonably intelligent but some of the instructions just seem a bit ambiguous at best. Some are just lucky

that they interpret the instructions as they were meant to. That's my excuse anyway!

Keep at it. Try and crack one problem at a time. Don't loose out on an evenings viewing because you are having trouble with guiding.

It will happen and you will be chuffed as punch when it does. But as Olly said - then leave it as is!

I dread an upgrade as I know I will have trouble getting it going again.

Just don't give up.

cheers

gaj

[Tinker1947]

Your not alone when it come to getting hardware/software working while i'm getting the hang of it now, bring everything together there are still hiccups and when it is all finally working, it to cloudy to use it,,,,,,keep at it well worth the hassle in the end....

[StuartJPP]

Try to do as much as you can off-line...i.e. in the warmth and comfort of your house. Although you ultimately need clear skies you can do an awful lot without them. Especially things like connecting up to your guide camera and making sure you can control your mount from PHD2 and anything else like that. Making sure your cabling isn't snagging, marking off where your counterweights should be etc. etc.

I use a dark bedroom with Stellarium running on the screen of my PC, I can use that to some degree to check guiding and various other things. But as I say ultimately you need to get out but don't waste precious imaging time.

Regarding stand-alone guiders, I think there is only one worth considering, the M-Gen, but its cost is a bit prohibitive. I have refrained from buying one and have instead upgraded my "netbook" to a combined PC/Tablet at half the cost, I have still got my old one which is okay for PHD2 but not much else...hopefully is wasn't a mistake upgrading! If it is I will get rid of the new one and go for the expensive M-Gen and go PC-less. I did have an LVI Smartguider 2 for a short period of time but the poky little screen and the lack of information just made it frustrating to use...as Olly says, if it works then great, but if not, you are pretty stuffed.

[chrisshillito]

ASCOM is supposed to work with a dedicated driver that should be downloadable for your specific mount.  The trouble is the Skywatcher mounts don't have an ASCOM driver to use, which is why you weren't getting any joy (you were actually using the simulator, a pretend mount just for experimenting with software).

Not true at all. EQMOD is a dedicated ASCOM driver specifically for Skywatcher EQ mounts.

I can't help but feel that a little bit of research before diving in would have saved a lot of the OPs initial frustration - there is plenty of help and advice available - its just a matter of seeking it out.

Chris.

[michaelmorris]

My experience is that getting any reasonably decent results takes a lot of perseverance, a highly methodical approach, and a degree of OCD! Getting results you're really happy with takes even more persistence (in my case several years). My deep sky imaging forays have tended to be most commonly at star parties, so the time scales are somewhat extended, but below are examples of early and more recent images.
The improved final image is down to small improvements in kit, improved image capture techniques and procedures and improved image processing. This isn't meant as any form of self promotion, but simply to show you that with persistence and a willingness to learn even a ham-fisted numpty like me can get half-decent images.

[Singlin]

I think that most of us have had negative thoughts along the way, I certainly have.

As has been said before on this thread just take a couple of days break and then try again. You will get their in the end and the internet will help you on the way.

I am quite stubborn in that I never give up but this can be a negative as instead of just taking  time out and re-starting with a fresh mind I have soldiered on regardless and wasted allot of time in the process.

My advice would be to stop when everything is going pair shaped and start again with a fresh mind.

You will succeed and enjoy this wonderful hobby, Just be patient.

[A40farinagolf]

Well, like Olly I steer clear of software solutions if I can help it so unlike others I prefer to stick with the handset provided with the mount (which is great by the way) than use 3rd party solutions for controlling the scope.  It's just me and how I prefer to go about it. Loads of other folks have great results using a pile of PC software.  I have one USB cable into my Macbook Air and a (very) cheap Belkin hub which controls the guiding and the photography.  I then have a long Cat 5 cable from the handset (next to the Mac) which controls the scope functions. Sometimes life is too short...

Many thanks for all the feedback and helpful comments, they are much appreciated.

In summary:

- I have a desire to take higher quality AP images

- I have the physical equipment - camera, mount and other hardware (autoguider or daughters laptop)

- I have a "reasonable level" of intelligence

- I have access to "reasonable" skies assuming the clouds clear

- I have an understanding wife who permits me to spend time and money on hobbies

A lot of the prerequisites are in place, what I'm missing is the ability to operate the kit effectively, a major element of this issue is ensuring that the systems communicate so is software / IT related.

Owmuchonomy's comment seems to be a simple way of addressing the IT side of things so that might a favoured way forward.

"I have one USB cable into my Macbook Air and a (very) cheap Belkin hub which controls the guiding and the photography. I then have a long Cat 5 cable from the handset (next to the Mac) which controls the scope functions"

[A40farinagolf]

My experience is that getting any reasonably decent results takes a lot of perseverance, a highly methodical approach, and a degree of OCD! Getting results your really happy with takes even more persistence (in my case several years). My deep sky imaging forays have tended to be most commonly at star parties, so the time scales are somewhat extended, but below are examples of early and more recent images.

The improved final image is down to small improvements in kit, improved image capture techniques and procedures and improved image processing. This isn't meant as any form of self promotion, but simply to show you that with persistence and a willingness to learn even a ham-fisted numpty like me can get half-decent images.

m45010309.jpg

M4510_09_15.jpg

Michael,

Many thanks for sharing the images and the improvement is very easy and interesting to see - hopefully I'll master it one day.

Regards,

M