Some advice for a novice

[Juno6]

Hi, new here and was looking for some advice.

Ive recently been taking photos of the moon and sunspots with a digital camera held to the eyepiece of my telescope (114gt). Have managed to get a few nice ones. However when I try to get Jupiter or Saturn this way its just a blurry ball or in saturns case I can see the ring but also no detail.

I am going to buy a web cam for my windows 7 laptop to use with the telescope (either Phillips spc 900 or orion starshoot usb eyepiece 2).

My question I guess is if you can get sufficient quality video for stacking of images without tracking (Saturn or Jupiter). My telescope is capable of tracking but so far have 90% not got it to work properly. However I still want some nice images of the planets.

I can see the detail on Saturns rings and bands on Jupiter through this scope, now I want to get some nice photos of it.

Thanks for any help

[ronin]

Going to be simple and say that if you want some nice images then work out the tracking, it is the ability to track that will give a reasonable set of frames from a webcam to select the best and stack.

All you need is about 60-90 seconds worth, it does not need to be totally accurate, but tracking is what provides the decent frames from which to derive the procesed image.

[Moon-Watcher]

Are you saying a webcam is better than DSLR?  and MUCH quicker exposure?  (absolute beginner)

Cheers,

Mark

[Juno6]

Thanks for the quick replies.

I will try and get the tracking sorted. I think its probably something im doing wrong, as the previous owner had it all working. It doesn't help that the firmware for the handset has a bug for the two star align( only goes alphabetically from a-f for alignment stars) so have to use the auto align.

Thanks Ronin.

Moon-Watcher, not sure what you mean. Don't think a dslr goes well with this scope (I understand its a limited scope anyhow)as it seems to get better results through the eyepiece and I don't want to use such a big camera.

[Moon-Watcher]

Hi Juno.  Post was meant for Ronin.

Good luck with your astrophotography...

Cheers,

Mark

[jimbo747]

Dslrs are heavy with huge sensors. Great for DSO as the object can use majority of the sensor, your 114 won't fill the whole sensor of even a webcam so no advantage in using a dslr unless you already have one with movie crop mode.. Howver if you cant track because the dslr has a larger sensor the image will stay on the chip longer before it drifts off.

Faster frame rates are better - i can recommend the ps3 eyecam if on a budget, or the xbox cam is a bit easier to mod. Jupiter looks better for me with a 2x barlow and eyecam than a dslr. Unless you have the budget for a qhy5l or asi 120 then the ps3 eyecam has the quickest frame rates of any webcam (up to 187 fps).

Logitech 4000 has a proper ccd sensor same as the philips but a lot cheaper (make sure it has the sony ccd, not the sharp) so although its fps is lower, the chip seems to pick up colour better.

[brantuk]

Yup - dslr's are more suited to dso's because long exposures are required to capture the light on the chip (typically 5 mins or more). But planets are very bright and a lot closer (only millions of miles away rather thousands of light years). So short exposures (sub second) are good with all the light available - and lots of them. You're trying to get the odd good frame when the seeing settles momentarily with a webcam.

Anyone who's observed a planet with a scope will tell you it appears to "wobble" or "boil" in the eyepiece most of the time - but every now and again it seems to settle for a brief second or two and the view goes dead steady and calm. This is the atmosphere settling and it doesn't stay still for long. Those are the frames you want to include in your stack and using a fast shooting webcam increases your chances of grabbing them.

Tracking is preferable however because not only is Earth rotating the planet across the camera lens - but the planet itself is rotating too. So short bursts of 1 or 2 mins will suffice. Hth

[Knight of Clear Skies]

It's possible to do planetary imaging with a webcam without tracking, simply letting the target drift across the field of view. I took this image of Saturn using this method:

However, you will get better results with tracking as you'll be able to capture more frames.

[Juno6]

Im glad to know I can at least attempt it if I cant get the tracking working. Night - Great image of Saturn you have there. Im assuming that's from a far better scope than mine.

Jimbo- Yes I am on a budget (hence the scope), I have no idea what web cam to get so with some research narrowed it to the Phillips 900 with its ccd sensor over the cmos orion starshoot usb. Im assuming this model will not need any flashing etc to work with windows 7. So if I was to use a faster frame rate with this cam I can squeeze in more frames if the tracking doesn't work? I have looked on ebay and there is a modified philllips 900 but the others you mention I would have to convert myself?

brantuk- with this scope I can just about see the bands on Jupiter but a lot of the time its just a bright ball so 'seeing' would have to be very good. My scope has a different kind of 'wobble', it moves all over the place if you touch it

If anybody has any modified web cams for sale let me know

thanks again

[brantuk]

Yup - the 114 does come with a wobbly mount - you might try and get it more stable by tightening everything up, filling the legs with sand, hang a weight under the tray or all three. The atmospheric wobble I mentioned happens even with the most stable of mounts.

[Juno6]

I will try that out giving it some more weight and tightening everything. It has about 1mm of play where the tube connects to the dovetail joint (when you touch the scope).

Would this webcam be suitable for my needs using win 7................

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252011284569?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[mikeskor]

Tracking is certainly easier but some people can get excellent results without tracking such as the following guy in Brasil who uses a Zwo camera and a manual Dobsonian:

[jimbo747]

Im glad to know I can at least attempt it if I cant get the tracking working. Night - Great image of Saturn you have there. Im assuming that's from a far better scope than mine.

Jimbo- Yes I am on a budget (hence the scope), I have no idea what web cam to get so with some research narrowed it to the Phillips 900 with its ccd sensor over the cmos orion starshoot usb. Im assuming this model will not need any flashing etc to work with windows 7. So if I was to use a faster frame rate with this cam I can squeeze in more frames if the tracking doesn't work? I have looked on ebay and there is a modified philllips 900 but the others you mention I would have to convert myself?

brantuk- with this scope I can just about see the bands on Jupiter but a lot of the time its just a bright ball so 'seeing' would have to be very good. My scope has a different kind of 'wobble', it moves all over the place if you touch it

If anybody has any modified web cams for sale let me know

thanks again

AFAIK if you go over something like 15fps on the philips it compresses the frames which is bad. I dont think the logitech 4000 does and that has the exact same sony ccd. My advice, buy an xbox live cam for £5, add in a 1.25" adapter (with IR filter) for £10 - its incredibly easy to do, just remove a couple of screws and existing lens, open it up and remove the IR filter, put the case back on and then screw in the 1.25" adapter. 5 minute job. Have a play with it, you'll get results not too far off the likes of the toucam. If you decide to sell it you'll be able to flog it for £20 on ebay, getting your money back after fees.

[Juno6]

Jimbo is this the cam you mean

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Microsoft-Xbox-360-Live-Vision-Camera-USB-Accessory-/161750142876?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a90f4f9c

[Juno6]

and this adapter

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201382803792?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

sorry about the double post, didn't find where to edit the post

[jimbo747]

Thats the one, good price on the adapter too ( you can usually buy for £10 inc delivery)

[Juno6]

Thanks Jimbo, Will give that mod a go then. I will let you know if its a "5 minute job"

[Big Chris]

Hi Juno6,

I've been using this camera with some success. I based my mod on the following, although I used the same adapter (from the same supplier) which just screws into the lens adapter once the original has been removed.

http://astrobeano.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/xbox-360-webcam-for-astrophotography.html

There is a bit of a 'banana skin' if you want to use it with Windows 7 though, although the following link gives the workaround. 

http://www.astronomyforum.net/astronomy-beginners-forum/151475-xbox-360-live-vision-camera-webcam-driver-fix.html

In order to get that working however, ensure that Windows 7 update KB978044 is installed first https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/978044

I have posted some Lunar images in previous posts obtained with a Live camera.

Good luck, and don't forget to post some images here!

Chris

[Juno6]

Thanks Big Chris, I do intend to use it on windows 7. So thanks for the links, they will come in very useful. I just wanted the camera to get a still image of Saturn and Jupiter and try and pick out some detail/sharpness. I have had occasional good enough results on the moon/sunspots by holding a digital camera to the eyepiece.

[Big Chris]

No worries mate. I've only just starting experimenting myself....

The higher in the sky, the more detail you tend to get. I tend to shoot an avi or two (600 to 1000 frames), pre-process in PIPP and then stack in either Registax 5 or AS!2. The wavelets function in Registax is also very good for enhancing detail.

[Juno6]

I managed to just about see the bands on Jupiter with 114gt the other day (blink and you miss it) when Jupiter is quite low. Saturn all the rings visible. Now just getting an image of how it actually looks in the eyepiece.

Id be happy with anything resembling your images I must admit.

By the way does the cam work with windows 7 64 bit also with the work around? Need to get a laptop asap first.

[Juno6]

Done the mod to the cam (casing was a bit tough). Although when I try and install the windows update in the link its say 'Update for Windows 7 (KB978044) is not applicable to your computer'. Im doing something wrong...

[Juno6]

Its alright. Got it to work, ran windows update instead with it plugged in. Checking under device manager and automatically scanning or manually looking  for drivers did not work. Cam works at least....

[Big Chris]

Great stuff...now all you need are some clear skies ☁️

If the bands of Jupiter are quite faint, stacking can really enhance them if you can focus the cam ok. My advice is to capture as many Avis as possible, say at 1000 or so frames each, with different settings and see what stacks well on a cloudy night...

[David Crane]

Hi Big Chris

Can you tell me where you downloaded PIPP from. I tried and Google gave me a link that seemed to be a Google link but it was zipped and when I tried to extract it Norton blocked it as dodgy.

Many thanks

David Crane